Will we ever see true Governance?

lufties · 30-01-2014 01:28PM #1

With the 'shining light' U.S completely at the behest of Bankers and big business, a puppet administration and a private federal reserve. I wonder will we ever see an establishment acting in the general public's interest The U.K is becoming a police state with regard to security, the EU is a technocratic monster also at the behest of Banks. Then we have our own cabal of cowardly lapdogs who do whatever the can to transfer money from the poor to the rich with their self serving snouts in the trough.

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong and just got out the wrong side of bed :cool:

ArmaniJeanss · 30-01-2014 01:31PM

lufties wrote: »

The U.K is basically a police state

Lolwat?

lufties · 30-01-2014 01:32PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Lolwat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

Nemeses · 30-01-2014 01:55PM

lufties wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

Yet again - How is the UK a Police State?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 01:57PM

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong and just got out the wrong side of bed

Yes and looks that way!

lufties · 30-01-2014 01:59PM

Harmony Old-fashioned Verdict wrote: »

Yes and looks that way!

Educate yourself!

seamus · 30-01-2014 02:14PM

Of course, "true" governance is a philosophical question in itself. What is "true" governance? How would you measure it and define it and decide that it's "true"?

The theoretical purest and fairest form of society is of course an anarchistic one, where every person is in control of their own destiny. But unfortunately the nature of the animal and of existence is that this can never work in the way it's imagined.

The EU, for all its bloatedness, appears to me to be the closest thing we have to a good form of governance. Many of the major improvements to the lives of individuals in this country over the last 30 years have been down to the EU dragging Irish governments kicking and screaming into the modern era. The focus of the EU is largely on the preservation of the union and the improvement of the lives of the citizens therein. This is probably because the EU rarely has to get bogged down in the specifics of fixing the potholes or making sure that Jimmy Mac who runs the concrete plant is happy, so they can make much more general changes with less resistance.

The technocratic nature of the EU is not a bad thing. In reality, we should have experts making decisions and directions on things they know about. Otherwise you get idiots like Sherlock creating laws that are completely moronic and outside the scope of reality, because they're making decision they're unqualified to make.
Technocracy however obviously has some drawbacks (groupthink) and is as open to abuse any other form of governance. So a techno/demo-cratic hybrid seems like an improvement on a pure democracy.

bodice ripper · 30-01-2014 02:21PM

.

MadYaker · 30-01-2014 02:25PM

Anyone who writes an OP referring to the UK being a police state can't be taken seriously.

lufties · 30-01-2014 02:28PM

seamus wrote: »

Of course, "true" governance is a philosophical question in itself. What is "true" governance? How would you measure it and define it and decide that it's "true"?

The theoretical purest and fairest form of society is of course an anarchistic one, where every person is in control of their own destiny. But unfortunately the nature of the animal and of existence is that this can never work in the way it's imagined.

The EU, for all its bloatedness, appears to me to be the closest thing we have to a good form of governance. Many of the major improvements to the lives of individuals in this country over the last 30 years have been down to the EU dragging Irish governments kicking and screaming into the modern era. The focus of the EU is largely on the preservation of the union and the improvement of the lives of the citizens therein. This is probably because the EU rarely has to get bogged down in the specifics of fixing the potholes or making sure that Jimmy Mac who runs the concrete plant is happy, so they can make much more general changes with less resistance.

The technocratic nature of the EU is not a bad thing. In reality, we should have experts making decisions and directions on things they know about. Otherwise you get idiots like Sherlock creating laws that are completely moronic and outside the scope of reality, because they're making decision they're unqualified to make.
Technocracy however obviously has some drawbacks (groupthink) and is as open to abuse any other form of governance. So a techno/demo-cratic hybrid seems like an improvement on a pure democracy.

True Governance, like the way the U.S was a century ago, land of the free etc.
Check out Aaron Russo's Documentry called from freedom to fascism. Its a real eye opener.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 02:31PM

lufties wrote: »

Educate yourself!

You asked and I answered honestly. I suspect that I'm educated to a higher degree than yourself but that's neither here nor there as education does not equal intelligence. That OP was a nonsensical rant. No society can function without some sort of governance, unless you count anarchy as a state preferable to government. A government must govern: hence governance is implicit.
To consider that piece on the UK being a police state is tantamount to belief in all those other whacko notions out there.

Marxism has failed. Dictatorship throughout history have failed. The totally free market model of the USA certianly fails a huge portion of its citezins. A technocratic overlord certainly has it's failings but the form exhibited by the EU is far from a failure. Perhaps a monarchy would be more to your liking. Oh no, that would allow privilege and status to determine your fate. I honestly don't know what form of oversight you would prefer.

lufties · 30-01-2014 02:35PM

Harmony Old-fashioned Verdict wrote: »

You asked and I answered honestly. I suspect that I'm educated to a higher degree than yourself but that's neither here nor there as education does not equal intelligence. That OP was a nonsensical rant. No society can function without some sort of governance, unless you count anarchy as a state preferable to government. A government must govern: hence governance is implicit.
To consider that piece on the UK being a police state is tantamount to belief in all those other whacko notions out there.

Marxism has failed. Dictatorship throughout history have failed. The totally free market model of the USA certianly fails a huge portion of its citezins. A technocratic overlord certainly has it's failings but the form exhibited by the EU is far from a failure. Perhaps a monarchy would be more to your liking. Oh no, that would allow privilege and status to determine your fate. I honestly don't know what form of oversight you would prefer.

Private bankers ruling the world and influencing governments are crippling the world. That's what I mean, why can't it be otherwise?

dxhound2005 · 30-01-2014 02:37PM

lufties wrote: »

With the 'shining light' U.S completely at the behest of Bankers and big business, a puppet administration and a private federal reserve. I wonder will we ever see an establishment acting in the general public's interest The U.K is basically a police state, the EU is a technocratic monster also at the behest of Banks. Then we have our own cabal of cowardly lapdogs who do whatever the can to transfer money from the poor to the rich with their self serving snouts in the trough.

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong and just got out the wrong side of bed :cool:

Last time we exchanged views you were in China. What is it like over there?

For Forks Sake · 30-01-2014 02:40PM

lufties wrote: »

With the 'shining light' U.S completely at the behest of Bankers and big business, a puppet administration and a private federal reserve. I wonder will we ever see an establishment acting in the general public's interest The U.K is basically a police state, the EU is a technocratic monster also at the behest of Banks.

lufties wrote: »

Educate yourself!

lufties wrote: »

Private bankers ruling the world and influencing governments are crippling the world.

You're quite the leftist soundbite machine, I'll grant you that.

Are you in fact Richard Boyd-Barrett?

ScumLord · 30-01-2014 02:40PM

"True governance" sounds like we need some glorious leader to tell us how to do everything. I don't want to be governed, I want to be part of a democratic process I'd just like the chance and education to be more than part of an uninformed mob.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 02:44PM

lufties wrote: »

True Governance, like the way the U.S was a century ago, land of the free etc.
Check out Aaron Russo's Documentry called from freedom to fascism. Its a real eye opener.

Wow! 1914 in the USA. Blatant apartheid. No votes for women. USA fighting wars in central America. Yes a lot to aspire to there. And a huge depression looming in another few years as well!!!!

As for Aaron Russo, fair enough in itself but irrelevant to our situation.

lufties · 30-01-2014 02:45PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Last time we exchanged views you were in China. What is it like over there?

You are trying to turn it into an argument and being a smart arse, while missing the point. It's obvious china's human rights are abysmal.

30-01-2014 02:45PM

Harmony Old-fashioned Verdict wrote: »

The totally free market model of the USA .

You what? With the govt stepping in to prop up companies,
"Increasing home ownership has been the goal of several presidents including Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton and George W. Bush." and stuff like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
is a United States federal law designed to encourage commercial banks and savings associations to help meet the needs of borrowers in all segments of their communities, including low- and moderate-income neighborhoods./I]
Hello sub prime

lufties · 30-01-2014 02:49PM

Harmony Old-fashioned Verdict wrote: »

Wow! 1914 in the USA. Blatant apartheid. No votes for women. USA fighting wars in central America. Yes a lot to aspire to there. And a huge depression looming in another few years as well!!!!

As for Aaron Russo, fair enough in itself but irrelevant to our situation.

I'm talking about 1912/13 actually, before the federal reserve in america was privatised and banks took control. How is it irrelevant to us? Didn't our great noble mary harney say we're closer to boston than berlin.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 02:50PM

lufties wrote: »

Private bankers ruling the world and influencing governments are crippling the world. That's what I mean, why can't it be otherwise?

You see we'd have to believe all that before we could even begin to contemplate how to go about being otherwise. However, that's not how it is in reality. It may seem like it when taking a factor in our lives in isolation but thankfully the picture is a lot broader than that and many other factors influence our society.

seamus · 30-01-2014 02:51PM

Harmony Old-fashioned Verdict wrote: »

Wow! 1914 in the USA. Blatant apartheid. No votes for women. USA fighting wars in central America. Yes a lot to aspire to there. And a huge depression looming in another few years as well!!!!

I mean, really? "Land of the free"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States

Anyone who thinks that the United States was ever a democratic utopia is living in fantasy land. The US has for most of its life governed with social conservatism and economic liberalism.

Most people really want the opposite.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 02:52PM

lufties wrote: »

Didn't our great noble mary harney say we're closer to boston than berlin.

And doesn't this just prove that we have controls and balances, as she is gone thanks to our system of government

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 02:55PM

seamus wrote: »

I mean, really? "Land of the free"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States

Anyone who thinks that the United States was ever a democratic utopia is living in fantasy land. The US has for most of its life governed with social conservatism and economic liberalism.

Most people really want the opposite.

I probably didn't xpress myself properly as I'm flabbergasted by the OP. I agree with you fully. I was trying to point out the absurdity of the OP aspiring to being as the US was a hundred years ago. I wouldn't want us to follow there 1914 model any more than their 2014 one. The greatest open air asylum in the world is no role model.

lufties · 30-01-2014 03:04PM

Harmony Old-fashioned Verdict wrote: »

You see we'd have to believe all that before we could even begin to contemplate how to go about being otherwise. However, that's not how it is in reality. It may seem like it when taking a factor in our lives in isolation but thankfully the picture is a lot broader than that and many other factors influence our society.

So you don't believe it? Even after all that has happened in the last 10 years..

wendell borton · 30-01-2014 03:24PM

We need a platonic philosopher king, but who will lead us? It's got to be someone with the know-how and the elbow grease to lead us to a new land. :rolleyes:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 03:35PM

lufties wrote: »

So you don't believe it? Even after all that has happened in the last 10 years..

In the terms you have put it? No I don't. I accept that you believe so and that's fine if it gets you through the day but I equally am entitled to my belief. Government is complicated, flawed and lacking in many ways but I'd love to hear the idyllic alternative. In the meantime I can live comfortably and freely with what we have.

jimgoose · 30-01-2014 03:40PM

wendell borton wrote: »

We need a platonic philosopher king, but who will lead us? It's got to be someone with the know-how and the elbow grease to lead us to a new land. :rolleyes:

I'll do it, but I'll tell you now I'm more along the lines of an Eccentric Benevolent Dictator.

jimgoose · 30-01-2014 03:41PM

Any government is going to be like a two-year-old trying to drive an eighteen-speed artic. It's a big, complicated difficult job for anyone. And anyone attempting to convince you that the likes of the U.K. or even our own corrupt little sh!thole are anything like police states is a little, shall we say, misguided.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 30-01-2014 04:19PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Any government is going to be like a two-year-old trying to drive an eighteen-speed artic. It's a big, complicated difficult job for anyone. And anyone attempting to convince you that the likes of the U.K. or even our own corrupt little sh!thole are anything like police states is a little, shall we say, misguided.

A little?????

I Heart Internet · 30-01-2014 04:30PM

"Will there ever be a rainbow?"
By Charles Montgomery Burns

bumper234 · 30-01-2014 04:48PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

"Will there ever be a rainbow?"
By Charles Montgomery Burns

Somewhere over the rainbow

Dame Judy Garland

Will we ever see true Governance?

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