Recent Vodafone

trojan48 · 15-01-2014 03:16PM

euroboom13 wrote: »

if you sold your holding straight you would pay tax too...£9354 -tax due (or else you are pay tax on the sold holding not due) deal was worked out to be reasonably cost neutral ,

Thanks for your comment

mmmmm, tax only due on profit of share holding, not the deal I thought it was, thanks for the confirmation,

Think I would be better of selling prior to deal, repurchasing after deal, that way would still have approx 4000 shares therefore be able to obtain dividend on 4000 instead of 2000 shares.

amber2 · 19-01-2014 05:03PM

Tow wrote: »

Exactly my thoughts.
Does anyone have the calculations from the original Eircom Share purchase price?
There are some back of the envelope calculations on Askaboutmoney, but that is about it. If someone only ever had Eircom shares, they are already carrying forward an additional loss from the Eircom sale to Valentia.

Have 1277 Vodafone shares which myself & my husband bought back in 1999 Eircom at the time, don't remember the share purchase price but as far as I can remember we purchased IR£6000 worth and have taken the share option instead of dividends. On the election form tax income option is selected. As I haven't a bulls notion about shares I am wondering is this the best option for us.

Also I would ideally like to get rid of all of these shares and am opting to sell my Verizon entitlement but where does that leave me with Vodafone shares, I don't want a share account or a share certificate I would like rid of them all but from the paperwork this isn't an option. Also I'm presuming there is an annual charge to maintain the Vodafone share account

As regards the income tax part can this be reclaimed as I am currently out of work since Oct 13.

Morleystreet · 19-01-2014 07:35PM

So would below logic be correct - find it very confusing really!

Have 350 Vodafone shares.

Sell today => 350 shares * €2.88 (approx share price) = €1008 (minus any selling charges etc).

Hold for deal and then sell =>

350 shares * €1.25 (cash+Verizon) = €437.50 And
175 voda shares * €2.88 = €504
Total = €941.50 minus any selling charges etc

So sell now and sell after is about same value ? Is that about right? (ignoring share price fluctuations).

Is the 175 shares above correct - ie ur left with half the amount of voda shares after the deal?

Any help much appreciated on explaining this?

trojan48 · 19-01-2014 09:34PM

amber2 wrote: »

Have 1277 Vodafone shares which myself & my husband bought back in 1999 Eircom at the time, don't remember the share purchase price but as far as I can remember we purchased IR£6000 worth and have taken the share option instead of dividends. On the election form tax income option is selected. As I haven't a bulls notion about shares I am wondering is this the best option for us.

Also I would ideally like to get rid of all of these shares and am opting to sell my Verizon entitlement but where does that leave me with Vodafone shares, I don't want a share account or a share certificate I would like rid of them all but from the paperwork this isn't an option. Also I'm presuming there is an annual charge to maintain the Vodafone share account

As regards the income tax part can this be reclaimed as I am currently out of work since Oct 13.

Don't see why you can not just sell them now - the deal has not been confirmed as yet. I am selling my 4000 tomorrow and buying BT. At least I should be able to buy back 4000 VOD after deal and benefit from 4000 times dividend or else I will only end up with 2000 VOD. Verizon no benefit to me.

20-01-2014 06:01PM

Revenue have issued an ebrief today on the 'Tax Treatment of Return of Value to Vodafone Shareholders'

http://www.revenue.ie/en/practitioner/ebrief/2014/no-022014.html

Good timing too, as today the last day for the forms to be returned (arrive) back to the UK.

20-01-2014 06:15PM

Summary:

CGT:
Based on 1000 shares from the initial Eircom flotation:

Subject to final figures becoming available, shareholders could have a loss of €928 (2,178-1,250), as in the example above, which would be available to offset against other chargeable gains (if any) or, if unused, be carried forward to be offset against chargeable gains in the future.

In other words you pay no tax and have a loss to carry forward.

Income Tax:
You pay PAYE, PRSI and USC on the lot.

sawdoubters · 20-01-2014 06:23PM

you need to hold them until after 21st feb to get benefit of Verizon sale

Vodafone have announced that following the completion of the deal they intend to carry out a return of capital to shareholders, partly in cash and partly in Verizon shares, totalling approximately £51.4bn. Shareholders will not be able to mix the amount of cash and new Verizon shares they are entitled to receive, the ratios will be set by Vodafone. There will also be a consolidation of Vodafone's Ordinary shares at a ratio to be determined. Vodafone will announce the return of capital and consolidation ratios on 19th February 2014.

Shareholders will be offered a mix of Verizon shares and cash for each Vodafone share held but we will not know the exact amounts until 21st February 2014. The ratios will be calculated based on the market value of the companies at the time. If you hold Vodafone shares in a Redmayne-Bentley nominee account, the new shares in Verizon and Vodafone will be credited to accounts on or around 25th February 2014 and the cash proceeds will be credited to accounts on or around 5th March 2014.

Approval of the proposals will be required at two meetings, a Court Meeting and a General Meeting of the Company, both to be held on 28th January 2014. Shareholders are strongly encouraged to exercise their voting rights.

The type of account(s) in which you hold Vodafone shares will determine exactly what options are available and what you will need to do. Please see the table below for more details.

If you hold Vodafone shares in certificated form, you will receive information directly from the registrar and will need to respond directly to the registrar with your election.

Sonnenblumen · 20-01-2014 07:23PM

The more I look at this offer, the more I think it is a bad deal for shareholders.

Currently these shares < 50% Eircom original deal.

The offer is roughly returning (Verizon shares + cash) equivalent to half of the current share value to shareholders. The other residual half is expected to be 50% of current value and will be consolidated on a 2:1 basis (so no change there) is being returned to shareholders.

If you sell an undervalued share why is there a Income tax, PRSI and CGT liability? This is not a gain, its an income from a transaction involving loss making shares?

On the other hand, accepting Verizon shares + cash will (not) be subject to CGT but because of there is a loss here which can be carried forward.

The obvious options are sell the lot now, or accept Verizon +part cash and then sell the lot later.

Am I missing something?

Selling the lot now is beginning to look more appealing?

Kristopherus · 20-01-2014 07:28PM

Cute Hoor wrote: »

If you are getting a minimal number of Verizon shares then imo you would be as well off to take the money instead. I'm not sure about having to fill in a W-8BEN every year, the last time I filled one in was 3 years ago, it's just a declaration that you have Foreign Status and are liable for US Withholding tax, the withholding tax is then automatically deducted from your dividends - this is as I understand it. I would expect the Verizon dividends to improve post deal and, given a fair wind, I'd expect the SP to be positive as well.

Just got an email from FXCM (robbing b**t**ds:mad:) telling me that the W-8BEN form that I completed last year had expired on 31/12/2013, and to submit a form for 2014.

trojan48 · 20-01-2014 07:46PM

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

The more I look at this offer, the more I think it is a bad deal for shareholders.

Currently these shares < 50% Eircom original deal.

The offer is roughly returning (Verizon shares + cash) equivalent to half of the current share value to shareholders. The other residual half is expected to be 50% of current value and will be consolidated on a 2:1 basis (so no change there) is being returned to shareholders.

If you sell an undervalued share why is there a Income tax, PRSI and CGT liability? This is not a gain, its an income from a transaction involving loss making shares?

On the other hand, accepting Verizon shares + cash will (not) be subject to CGT but because of there is a loss here which can be carried forward.

The obvious options are sell the lot now, or accept Verizon +part cash and then sell the lot later.

Am I missing something?

Selling the lot now is beginning to look more appealing?

Sold my 4000 today - there is no true value for the share holder, VOD stands to gain in reduction of shares 2 to 1 with 50% reduction in future dividend pay outs - ridiculous deal

Cute Hoor · 20-01-2014 08:29PM

trojan48 wrote: »

Sold my 4000 today - there is no true value for the share holder, VOD stands to gain in reduction of shares 2 to 1 with 50% reduction in future dividend pay outs - ridiculous deal

I'm not so sure about the validity of the 50% reduction in future dividend pay outs, have Vodafone said this, Verizon Wireless dividend payments to Vodafone have been almost as rare as hen's teeth, so the loss of Verizon Wireless is unlikely to have a 50% impact on the Vodafone dividend. Don't forget also that Vodafone are getting the 23% Verizon shareholding in Vodafone's Italian job, and they Vodafone are keeping a reasonably significant wedge of cash something like £23bn for future investment, which will obviously be used to add value to the company.

My own view, post deal and share reduction the Vodafone share price will roughly be as now, but will increase gradually but reasonably significantly from there, the dividend won't be halved, reduced obviously. AT&T sniffing around in the background won't do the Vodafone sp any harm either. I'd expect the Verizon shares to improve as well with the the freedom to do what they will without the pesky Brits involvement in their business.

All of the above assuming a fair wind for shares in general of course

Will be interesting to see what happens.

Edit: Of course Vodafone standing to gain means Vodafone shareholders standing to gain, Vodafone is owned by it's shareholders

trojan48 · 21-01-2014 01:46AM

Cute Hoor wrote: »

I'm not so sure about the validity of the 50% reduction in future dividend pay outs, have Vodafone said this, Verizon Wireless dividend payments to Vodafone have been almost as rare as hen's teeth, so the loss of Verizon Wireless is unlikely to have a 50% impact on the Vodafone dividend. Don't forget also that Vodafone are getting the 23% Verizon shareholding in Vodafone's Italian job, and they Vodafone are keeping a reasonably significant wedge of cash something like £23bn for future investment, which will obviously be used to add value to the company.

My own view, post deal and share reduction the Vodafone share price will roughly be as now, but will increase gradually but reasonably significantly from there, the dividend won't be halved, reduced obviously. AT&T sniffing around in the background won't do the Vodafone sp any harm either. I'd expect the Verizon shares to improve as well with the the freedom to do what they will without the pesky Brits involvement in their business.

All of the above assuming a fair wind for shares in general of course

Will be interesting to see what happens.

Edit: Of course Vodafone standing to gain means Vodafone shareholders standing to gain, Vodafone is owned by it's shareholders

mmmm, assuming consolidation of 2 shares for one you will only have 50% of Vodafone shares that you now own. Therefore post deal you will only get 50% of dividend.

I will buy back into Voda post deal and repurchase the 4000 shares I sold, at roughly the same price, thereby maintaining my entitlement to dividend on 4000 shares and not 2000 if I stuck with the deal.

I think VOD are a great company but this deal is less benefit to shareholders, with all the cash they made they really should have coughed up a super dividend to shareholders without the consolidation like Natixis did last year.

When shareholders really cop on to what is happening re the deal VOD is really going to fall in price. Especially as VOD are increasing dividend post deal !!!

By the way I am one of those 'Pesky Brits' you mentioned and certainly did not like the prospect of owning Verizon in its current debt liabilities !!!

onemanband · 21-01-2014 10:16AM

Kristopherus wrote: »

Just got an email from FXCM (robbing b**t**ds:mad:) telling me that the W-8BEN form that I completed last year had expired on 31/12/2013, and to submit a form for 2014.

W-8BEN's last for 3 years

Deco99 · 21-01-2014 01:42PM

Hi,

Heard bout this on radio, rang my parents who have about 400 shares. They got the letters but didnt even read them. Today is january 21st so what do they need to do before the january 26th deadline? from what i have read on this forum, the easiest way of maximising value (and not having hassle because they obviously dont pay attention) would be to elect the dividend as capital gains and sell the verizon shares, whilst holding on to the reduced vodafone shares? As the deadline is close by can this be done online?

niceview · 21-01-2014 02:08PM

Hi,

I have a scenario somewhat similar to the above poster. My parents sent the letter off yesterday but it seems they didn't tick capital gains tax and apparently it is automatically selected that tax will be taken on an income basis? They heard on the radio earlier you should tick capital gains tax.

Is there anyway of changing from income tax to capital gains? Can it be done online or over the phone? Thanks

Deco99 · 21-01-2014 04:06PM

ok, looks like online isnt really an option, passwords and registering and stuff. got them to fill in the form, elect to sell verizon, receive as capital not income and did not request a vodafone share cert.

Any of this the wrong thing to do? Not thousands unfortunately but worth filling in right i imagine.

amber2 · 21-01-2014 04:57PM

Deco99 wrote: »

Hi,

Heard bout this on radio, rang my parents who have about 400 shares. They got the letters but didnt even read them. Today is january 21st so what do they need to do before the january 26th deadline? from what i have read on this forum, the easiest way of maximising value (and not having hassle because they obviously dont pay attention) would be to elect the dividend as capital gains and sell the verizon shares, whilst holding on to the reduced vodafone shares? As the deadline is close by can this be done online?

As far as I know voting in the meeting by proxy closing date to be in the UK is the 26th that's the yellow and blue form the white form which is the income tax vs capital gains and Vodafone share account and Verizon shares is 20th of February is the deadline. The latter has to be posted but the yellow and blue forms can be done online with the PIN number.

Deco99 · 21-01-2014 05:39PM

Thanks, White form posted. How important is the proxy voting, it automatically defaults to the chairmen who votes yes so I can only assume this doesnt need to be touched unless they wanted to vote no, which I assume they dont want to do that.

amber2 · 21-01-2014 06:56PM

Deco99 wrote: »

Thanks, White form posted. How important is the proxy voting, it automatically defaults to the chairmen who votes yes so I can only assume this doesnt need to be touched unless they wanted to vote no, which I assume they dont want to do that.

I was told its important to vote but seeing as I know absolutely nothing about shares and am just about able to understand the white form, I will forego the Proxy voting. I did select the Capital Gains option as the shares are in joint names and will benefit from a capital gains allowance for each person named on the cert.

Seve OB · 22-01-2014 01:18PM

Good article, but anyone got any idea what the ABCDEFG they refer to is? I seem to have a different form as mine has numbers 1through 5

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/tips-for-vodafone-shareholders-to-avoid-paying-extra-tax-29896878.html

CGI_3 · 22-01-2014 03:28PM

Independent article says that "if you pay tax at the lower rate, you can minimise your tax bill by picking income payment. If you pay tax at the higher rate, you are better off ticking the box marked capital payment."

This doesn't make sense to me. I thought we we looking at a capital loss, and no CGT payable, so all the advise was to go with the Capital payment option and have to tax liability.

Confused now after the independent article!

Frager · 22-01-2014 06:32PM

I have been reading the posts re Verizon shares and Vodafone shares.

The Eircom shares were the only shares I ever bought.

I know absolutely nothing about share dealing.

I just want to be completely rid of Vodafone shares and Verizon shares.

How do I do this?

Thanks

amber2 · 23-01-2014 01:23PM

After reading indo now I'm confused I had selected CGT but as I am now unemployed should I now select the income tax options.

Ok so rang a friend of a friend who is a stockbroker anyone who bought them as eircom shares regardless of income select CGT as there is no gain to pay tax on. And Frager on the white dealing form to sell Verizon tick A I would like to sell my verizon shares sign and date & on the election form select which is best for you in section 2 either capital gains if you bought the original eircom shares and leave as is in section 3 opt in to Vodafone share account and once all this is over you can go to a broker and sell these shares in the Vodafone share account, that won't be for another few months mind. Hope this helps as this what I have gathered from what info I've received.

Sonnenblumen · 23-01-2014 01:38PM

Frager wrote: »

I have been reading the posts re Verizon shares and Vodafone shares.

The Eircom shares were the only shares I ever bought.

I know absolutely nothing about share dealing.

I just want to be completely rid of Vodafone shares and Verizon shares.

How do I do this?

Thanks

The best option to you is to sell all of your Vod-shares now, and certainly before all avoid all the hoo-ha later in Feb when you will be dealing with extra shares etc. The CGT status has been confirmed by Irish Revenue, so go for a clean break and sell them now.

trojan48 · 24-01-2014 09:55AM

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

The best option to you is to sell all of your Vod-shares now, and certainly before all avoid all the hoo-ha later in Feb when you will be dealing with extra shares etc. The CGT status has been confirmed by Irish Revenue, so go for a clean break and sell them now.

Fully agree with you, sell now, it's a bad deal for the shareholder anyway.

Bruce2008 · 24-01-2014 05:31PM

trojan48 wrote: »

Fully agree with you, sell now, it's a bad deal for the shareholder anyway.

I know that the government have agreed to ignore capital gains tax on the Vodafone 'windfall' and sale of Verizon shares but does this include selling your Vodafone shares now, before the 'windfall'. I would assume you are open to capital gains tax on your monies from the Vodafone shares if you sell them before the 'windfall'.

Please correct me if I am wrong, I hope I am wrong!

trojan48 · 24-01-2014 07:05PM

Bruce2008 wrote: »

I know that the government have agreed to ignore capital gains tax on the Vodafone 'windfall' and sale of Verizon shares but does this include selling your Vodafone shares now, before the 'windfall'. I would assume you are open to capital gains tax on your monies from the Vodafone shares if you sell them before the 'windfall'.

Please correct me if I am wrong, I hope I am wrong!

Hi, sorry to say but I am under the impression that all forms of income are subject to tax. Whether it be income tax or capital gains tax you will be liable to one or the other on any gain made from share sales

Maybe a professional tax adviser on this board may guide you

A New earth · 24-01-2014 08:58PM

If you acquired the shares from the original Eircom offer then you are making a loss on selling them now so no tax payable

Arnold Layne · 26-01-2014 12:19PM

Whew can I get copies of the forms

Kevo81 · 28-01-2014 12:27AM

Cute Hoor wrote: »

You will have received 2 White Forms (attached I think).

The first form is entitled 'Form of Election: Return of Value 2014', in Box A (top right hand corner of this form) is a line 'Number of ordinary shares held by you, this will tell you how many shares you currently hold. Once you are happy with that figure you don't need to worry about whether you have the shares or not.

In the main body of that form you have a number of sections. Section 3 gives you the option of keeping your shares in a Vodafone Share Account with Computershare or receiving a physical Share Certificate (your choice). Once you get confirmation that everything has been completed you can tear up your old shares.

There is a second form 'Dealing Form' that you fill in if you wish to immediately sell your entitlement to Verizon shares (for many of the original Eircom shareholders this may be the optimum option as you will probably be entitled to very few Verizon shares). You need to make up your own mind on whether you wish to receive the Verizon shares.

If you wanted to sell you're Vodafone shares before the Verizon deal goes through, and you don't have the certs then you're going to have to get on to Computershare and get replacement certs, a lot of hassle and probably at a cost. Why not wait and avoid that hassle?

Hope this helps

Thanks for all your advice Cute Hoor - sorry about the late reply.

I'm wondering what's best to do with regards to getting a share certificate for the new Vodafone shares as opposed to having the shares put into a Vodafone share account.

If I leave them in a Vodafone share account I will have to use Computershare to sell them @£;35 per transaction.

We have 5 share holdings and by the time the deal is done and we're issued new shares we'll probably only have about 140 new Vodafone shares each so £35 a pop to sell of these shares seems a bit steep.

Is it possible to consolidate all these shares in to one account and then sell them off or is that too complicated.

I've also read a lot of reviews online about Computershare and no one seems to have a good word to say about them so I'm more inclined to get share certificates for our new shares so I don't have to deal directly with Computershare when we're selling them.

Is it possible to sell off the 5 separate share holdings in one transaction or do they have to be sold individually?

Cheers

Recent Vodafone

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