Difficulty Level of Honours Maths

yoyojc · 23-01-2014 8:01pm #1

Just wondering from current sixth years or anyone who has done the Project Maths Honours course?

Just how tricky does it get? I'm in Fifth Year it's January obviously.. and it's hard enough. Just wondering how much harder does it get?

I mean we've done Algebra, Logs and Indices, Functions, Proofs and 2 Constructions and a bit more....

peekachoo · 23-01-2014 8:21pm

yoyojc wrote: »

Just wondering from current sixth years or anyone who has done the Project Maths Honours course?

Just how tricky does it get? I'm in Fifth Year it's January obviously.. and it's hard enough. Just wondering how much harder does it get?

I mean we've done Algebra, Logs and Indices, Functions, Proofs and 2 Constructions and a bit more....

Paper one (everything youve mentioned except the constructions) is generally found harder than paper two so what I'd say is if you're passing your tests (even if youre not - I failed all the way through 5th year :pac:) stick with it!
If you're any bit good at maths it's not *that* bad.
Obviously sometimes ya get impossible questions but the project maths marking schemes are also particularly generous with attempt marks.

Mario95 · 23-01-2014 9:43pm

For me the chapters you listed are the easiest, I guess most people will agree on that.
I personally think statistics is the hardest chapter as there is a lot to remember, for others chapters if you listen in class you should be fine.
Also calculus might be a bit confusing at first but it will make sense after a day or two.

Project Maths is really nice although I don't think putting in financial maths and removing vectors/matrices was a good idea.

student111 · 24-01-2014 8:46pm

Stick at it! I am getting grinds since November of this year and have seen a massive improvement in my results. It's not easy, but put in the hard work all the way through this year and those 25 bonus points will definitively be worth it!

Huell · 24-01-2014 9:22pm

DO NOT look at the papers in 5th year they can be so daunting and most questions combine 2 or 3 strands of maths into the full question. Best tip-stick at it and do your homework and a bit more on the side and if you need help dont be afraid to ask the teacher.

robman60 · 24-01-2014 10:45pm

yoyojc wrote: »

Just wondering from current sixth years or anyone who has done the Project Maths Honours course?

Just how tricky does it get? I'm in Fifth Year it's January obviously.. and it's hard enough. Just wondering how much harder does it get?

I mean we've done Algebra, Logs and Indices, Functions, Proofs and 2 Constructions and a bit more....

If anything, things get easier. I found myself struggling through fifth year, but if you just keep at it and aren't failing exams miserably, then stick with it.

Paper two stuff is easier in my opinion, although others may disagree. We've been about a month on exam papers now and things are getting easier so keep up the consistent work and it'll pay dividends!

yoyojc · 25-01-2014 2:39pm

robman60 wrote: »

If anything, things get easier. I found myself struggling through fifth year, but if you just keep at it and aren't failing exams miserably, then stick with it.

Paper two stuff is easier in my opinion, although others may disagree. We've been about a month on exam papers now and things are getting easier so keep up the consistent work and it'll pay dividends!

Thanks alot for all of your messages! I got an A in my Junior Cert as I put alot of work into it! I'll definitely stick at it just not finding it as easy as I thought I would!

ProjectManager · 26-01-2014 8:35pm

If you got an A in JC and you are finding it tough now then something is wrong. i do agree that you should stick with it but you need to fond out why you are finding it tough and fix it. Maybe you have a different teacher and the new one has a different teaching style or it could be any of a number of other reasons.

Perhaps get some grinds for a while and get your confidence up - its clear from your JC results that you can do it.

robman60 · 26-01-2014 11:34pm

ProjectManager wrote: »

If you got an A in JC and you are finding it tough now then something is wrong. i do agree that you should stick with it but you need to fond out why you are finding it tough and fix it. Maybe you have a different teacher and the new one has a different teaching style or it could be any of a number of other reasons.

Perhaps get some grinds for a while and get your confidence up - its clear from your JC results that you can do it.

I disagree completely. I got an A in Junior Cert. and even got one of those things to attend extra classes in NUIG for high achieving students, yet I struggled a lot in fifth year. It takes most students, even the best a long time to adjust to LC higher level.

Mario95 · 27-01-2014 12:52am

robman60 wrote: »

I disagree completely. I got an A in Junior Cert. and even got one of those things to attend extra classes in NUIG for high achieving students, yet I struggled a lot in fifth year. It takes most students, even the best a long time to adjust to LC higher level.

I must disagree. I struggled a lot with J.C. Maths as the teacher tried to make us memorize and rote learn everything.
My L.C. maths teacher actually explains stuff, this makes Maths REALLY easy. Project Maths is based more on ''problem solving" and understanding of concepts, and its there where less Mathematically minded students tend to be bad at.
Also interest plays a great role in Maths, if you hate it then you will be more likely to do bad at it.

ProjectManager · 27-01-2014 1:26am

robman60 wrote: »

I disagree completely. I got an A in Junior Cert. and even got one of those things to attend extra classes in NUIG for high achieving students, yet I struggled a lot in fifth year. It takes most students, even the best a long time to adjust to LC higher level.

You have completely missed my point. If a student is capable of getting an A in JC Maths, then he / she must have a good understanding of the concepts involved. The Project Maths LC topics mentioned by the original poster are Algebra, Functions, Logs and Indices - all of which are an extension of the JC course. So if someone has a good grasp of the JC topics such as algebraic factors, fractions, simultaneous equations etc, then they should have no problem with equivalent LC topics as long as it is explained properly. In JC they study simultaneous equations with 2 variable and in LC with 3 variables.

Of course LC is harder than JC, and of course some students struggle to get back into study after transition year. But my main point is that something isn't working for that student and he / she needs to find out what it is and fix it.

yoyojc · 31-01-2014 10:00pm

ProjectManager wrote: »

You have completely missed my point. If a student is capable of getting an A in JC Maths, then he / she must have a good understanding of the concepts involved. The Project Maths LC topics mentioned by the original poster are Algebra, Functions, Logs and Indices - all of which are an extension of the JC course. So if someone has a good grasp of the JC topics such as algebraic factors, fractions, simultaneous equations etc, then they should have no problem with equivalent LC topics as long as it is explained properly. In JC they study simultaneous equations with 2 variable and in LC with 3 variables.

Of course LC is harder than JC, and of course some students struggle to get back into study after transition year. But my main point is that something isn't working for that student and he / she needs to find out what it is and fix it.

I completely agree, I'm putting alot of work into it and it's paying off. I was being typically hard on myself really!

Days 298 · 01-02-2014 8:35am

I find this Project maths a bit of a balls. It's not for maths. It's English. The maths is ridiculously easy most of the time. The question phrasing is annoying. The questions asked are made to benefit those who learn maths off and don't understand what they are doing. That's so few fail.

For example few actually understand why you put the differentiated equation equal to zero. Yet they don't ask that. They ask stupid definition questions which involve pure writing and no maths.

Stick with it. You'll definitely get a C at least. So many people now do higher level maths and the fact it is a requirement to get into college means they can't ask part c type questions anymore. It's not higher level maths it's Project English.

It will all come together trust me. The papers maths are easy. No joke. The question phrasing is.......

Mr Pseudonym · 01-02-2014 11:21am

ProjectManager wrote: »

If a student is capable of getting an A in JC Maths, then he / she must have a good understanding of the concepts involved. The Project Maths LC topics mentioned by the original poster are Algebra, Functions, Logs and Indices - all of which are an extension of the JC course. So if someone has a good grasp of the JC topics such as algebraic factors, fractions, simultaneous equations etc, then they should have no problem with equivalent LC topics In JC they study simultaneous equations with 2 variable and in LC with 3 variables.

I don't agree with the contention that success at JC level is necessarily a predictor of LC success. It's been a few years since I did the JC, but I can still remember that a lot of it could be taught to students as a step-by-step operation without requiring that they (ant this is a cliche!) understood what they were doing. Quadratic equations (called smiley faces by my teacher, because of curved lines under the two sets of brackets) or simultaneous equations (isolating a variable, but in the minds of most students "cancelling" one of them) were magical processes to me where if I did a few operations, I'd get the answers out the other end. I recall the seeming impossibility of remembering "all" the co-ordinate geometry formulas; it was only at some point in fifth year that I sought to understand the basis behind them and realised it was so basic, and almost intuitive, as to render the formulas useless. I'm probably unusual, but I got a C at JC, and A's in Maths/App Maths.

I'd be quite interested in your, or anyone's, thoughts.

FatRat · 02-02-2014 3:29pm

Days 298 wrote: »

I find this Project maths a bit of a balls. It's not for maths. It's English. The maths is ridiculously easy most of the time. The question phrasing is annoying. The questions asked are made to benefit those who learn maths off and don't understand what they are doing. That's so few fail.

For example few actually understand why you put the differentiated equation equal to zero. Yet they don't ask that. They ask stupid definition questions which involve pure writing and no maths.

Stick with it. You'll definitely get a C at least. So many people now do higher level maths and the fact it is a requirement to get into college means they can't ask part c type questions anymore. It's not higher level maths it's Project English.

It will all come together trust me. The papers maths are easy. No joke. The question phrasing is.......

That's pretty much completely wrong information you have there. Before project maths most people didn't have a clue why they were doing calculus. They use the method to differentiate/integrate and applied it. They did this no knowing exactly what use calculus has for real life applications. A lot of people probably didn't know that differentiating something is a way to find a tangent to a certain curve. With project maths the pure calculus questions are done away with and instead they use "project English" (whatever you mean by that) style question where they could ask you to find how fast something falls or the rate of change of acceleration of an object etc. This is why people use maths. So why ask questions on calculus whereby the people answering them dont have a clue how it could be any bit useful to them in real life?

This is just one example. Most topics other than calculus also have the same principles.

.skid · 02-02-2014 3:41pm

The statistics and probability chapters arent too hard. Well probability is awkward because of all the english and statistics is mind numbingly boring. The maths is easy but you have to learn all these stupid definitions and things that have nothing to do with maths. It's not fair really because I've had some lads telling me how hard they find it to do statistics and that they were good at maths but the english just gets them.

Ompala · 02-02-2014 4:12pm

In my own experience

Old Course - More number crunching, but their was always a part c that really tested your knowledge and understanding of the concepts, separated the A1s from the rest. The actual maths was much harder.

New Course - Tests you more on why we do things a certain way rather than another, and why things work (e.g Bernoulli Trials). The actual maths involved was very easy.

I preferred the old course personally, the new course is a lot easier I find.
The danger I find is that students go through project maths and find the leap between it and college level maths monumental, can't handle it and drop out.
Thats not to say that people from the old course didn't drop out as well, but it certainly hasn't happened to the same degree.

jam17032010 · 02-02-2014 8:02pm

FatRat wrote: »

That's pretty much completely wrong information you have there. Before project maths most people didn't have a clue why they were doing calculus. They use the method to differentiate/integrate and applied it. They did this no knowing exactly what use calculus has for real life applications. A lot of people probably didn't know that differentiating something is a way to find a tangent to a certain curve. With project maths the pure calculus questions are done away with and instead they use "project English" (whatever you mean by that) style question where they could ask you to find how fast something falls or the rate of change of acceleration of an object etc. This is why people use maths. So why ask questions on calculus whereby the people answering them dont have a clue how it could be any bit useful to them in real life?

This is just one example. Most topics other than calculus also have the same principles.

Wrong. Using Calculus to find rates of change and tangents to curves were on the old course as well. This is not new to Project maths.

All Project maths has done for Calculus, is introduce long convoluted questions which essentially ask the same thing as questions on the old course. Project maths has much less integral calculus a bit less differential calculus but more material on functions.

AulBiddy · 02-02-2014 9:09pm

I'm in 5th year too, unless you skipped straight on from 3rd year you probably didn't do project maths so its a bit different and maybe that's why you're finding it difficult??

flatty · 02-02-2014 9:17pm

I did honours level maths in 1989 (showing my age) , or maybe 1987, can't remember. I got a b in that and an a in the matric. Does anyone know how this would compare to the maths of today? This will sound silly, but now I am older and vaguely successful for the moment at least, I'd really like to try higher level maths again through some kind of distance learning course just for the craic. Would this be plausible at all or possible?

spurious · 02-02-2014 9:25pm

flatty wrote: »

I did honours level maths in 1989 (showing my age) , or maybe 1987, can't remember. I got a b in that and an a in the matric. Does anyone know how this would compare to the maths of today? This will sound silly, but now I am older and vaguely successful for the moment at least, I'd really like to try higher level maths again through some kind of distance learning course just for the craic. Would this be plausible at all or possible?

You can apply any year to the SEC as an External student and sit any subject you want. They will charge you the repeat fee though, regardless of how long it has been. Have a look at recent papers on www.examinations.ie and you can judge what the level is like.

flatty · 03-02-2014 2:57pm

spurious wrote: »

You can apply any year to the SEC as an External student and sit any subject you want. They will charge you the repeat fee though, regardless of how long it has been. Have a look at recent papers on www.examinations.ie and you can judge what the level is like.

Thanks spurious. Ill look into it. Are there any online tutorials do you know?

ProjectManager · 03-02-2014 7:09pm

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't agree with the contention that success at JC level is necessarily a predictor of LC success. It's been a few years since I did the JC, but I can still remember that a lot of it could be taught to students as a step-by-step operation without requiring that they (ant this is a cliche!) understood what they were doing. Quadratic equations (called smiley faces by my teacher, because of curved lines under the two sets of brackets) or simultaneous equations (isolating a variable, but in the minds of most students "cancelling" one of them) were magical processes to me where if I did a few operations, I'd get the answers out the other end. I recall the seeming impossibility of remembering "all" the co-ordinate geometry formulas; it was only at some point in fifth year that I sought to understand the basis behind them and realised it was so basic, and almost intuitive, as to render the formulas useless. I'm probably unusual, but I got a C at JC, and A's in Maths/App Maths.

I'd be quite interested in your, or anyone's, thoughts.

I actually agree with everything you have said, however I think you have misinterpreted me. I never said that success at JC is a predictor of success at LC. However i don't believe that achieving an A in JC is possible with rote learning. In order to achieve an A, a student has to understand the concepts because there are too many variations of questions possible on each topic. So my point was that if this student got an A in JC, he / she must have had a good understanding of the basics which is a good starting point for higher level LC. For example if the student has a good understanding of factorising quadratics at JC level, they should have no problem in factorising polynomials at LC. THat is what I meant.

It is great to see that people like yourself (an myself) who for one reason or another (poor teaching, lack of concentration etc) actually underperform at JC and can pick it up for LC. However it does require the understanding of basic concepts to click into place through good teaching, student focus and maturity etc. My problem is that there are too few of these students, because in our society you are labelled as not suitable for applied Maths if you get a C in JC maths. This is what we need to change.

i hope that clarifies my comments.

ProjectManager · 03-02-2014 7:17pm

flatty wrote: »

Thanks spurious. Ill look into it. Are there any online tutorials do you know?

I am not sure if we are allowed to mention grind providers - but at the risk of getting blocked here goes. THere is the MathsTutor.ie, they provide videos and a chat forum. There is onlinegrinds.ie that provide online classes and there is positivemaths.ie that also provide online classes and videos.

Good luck

ProjectManager · 03-02-2014 7:24pm

jam17032010 wrote: »

Wrong. Using Calculus to find rates of change and tangents to curves were on the old course as well. This is not new to Project maths.

All Project maths has done for Calculus, is introduce long convoluted questions which essentially ask the same thing as questions on the old course. Project maths has much less integral calculus a bit less differential calculus but more material on functions.

I agree with this. Just because the name of the maths course has changed doesn't mean the maths has - because it hasn't. Students have got to realise that they still need to know the theory (same as the old course). Once they know the theory they need to practice the project maths type questions so that they can learn to pick out the relevant info from the question. But its still the same old stuff (of course apart from the content which has been removed).

A right angled triangle is still solved with three trig ratios and pythagoras.

boogle · 03-02-2014 10:55pm

http://alison.com/projectmaths/

You can work through the entire LC Project Maths course for free with this site. Tutorial videos and exercises for each section. It's excellent.

Mr Pseudonym · 03-02-2014 11:03pm

ProjectManager wrote: »

I actually agree with everything you have said, however I think you have misinterpreted me. I never said that success at JC is a predictor of success at LC. However i don't believe that achieving an A in JC is possible with rote learning. In order to achieve an A, a student has to understand the concepts because there are too many variations of questions possible on each topic. So my point was that if this student got an A in JC, he / she must have had a good understanding of the basics which is a good starting point for higher level LC. For example if the student has a good understanding of factorising quadratics at JC level, they should have no problem in factorising polynomials at LC. THat is what I meant.

It is great to see that people like yourself (and myself) who for one reason or another (poor teaching, lack of concentration etc) actually underperform at JC and can pick it up for LC. However it does require the understanding of basic concepts to click into place through good teaching, student focus and maturity etc. My problem is that there are too few of these students, because in our society you are labelled as not suitable for applied Maths if you get a C in JC maths. This is what we need to change.

i hope that clarifies my comments.

On re-reading my post, I was actually a bit disappointed by how banal it was! I'll concede that I did misrepresent, however, you did say that those with a JC 'A' would have no problems with the concepts of LC maths, which indirectly implies that they are likely to be successful!

I don't think all students can rote-learn themselves to a JC A, but (ignoring the fact that the marking scheme would be adjusted in such an event) I think a sizeable amount could and do. I suggest that a lot of the upper percentages of the B-category contains mathematically able students, who didn't learn proofs, etc.

It's interesting that the number of pupils who get an A at Higher JC (20%), is about fifteen percent more than the combined number who get A1-B3* at higher LC. Comfortably in the realms of hypothesis, I suggest that means that, I dunno, 10% (?) of JC A-ers get less than an LC 'B'. I also think a slightly above-average student could rote-learn to an LC 'B' - I think you'll prob disagree with me on that one.

In truth, I don't think the stats are illustrative enough to prove either side.

I agree with what you said about App Maths. But, I think the only way to change that is to incorporate it with the standard maths syllabus, as they do under A-Levels.

*I used 2007 JC cohort and compared it with 2010 LC cohort - the year before bonus points came in.

ProjectManager · 04-02-2014 12:03am

boogle wrote: »

http://alison.com/projectmaths/

You can work through the entire LC Project Maths course for free with this site. Tutorial videos and exercises for each section. It's excellent.

Good point, I forgot about alison but again they are just another free video site with which the internet is crawling - kahn academy. If someone is struggling, quite often a little one on one assistance either in person or online can be more effective.

Alison have a link with the maths doctor for online classes, although they are a little sneaky because thats a UK company and although maths is the same in UK as it is in Ireland the exam isn't the same. As far as i know the only truly Irish online maths classroom is http://www.positivemaths.ie/

In any event, there is a lot of stuff on the internet for those who want it.

Jamezzyboyoo · 04-02-2014 9:32pm

I did ordinary level for the Junior cert and am doing the honors project maths now (I'm in 6th year) and the one chapter that seems to be the worst for me is trig! Especially the double angles but it seems you've done the hardest chapters already and if you know them well the chapters you will do later one will link back in with laws of indices etc, so it does get easier!

Being in 5th year now you have the advantage of having my leaving cert to use to your advantage as teachers will have a better understanding of what comes up and the SEC exam papers for 2015 will hopefully be better than the ones they gave us this year!!

You should feel lucky that you aren't the first year trying this syllabus full on without having any idea of what is going to be thrown at you!!

Mario95 · 07-02-2014 4:08pm

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't think all students can rote-learn themselves to a JC A, but (ignoring the fact that the marking scheme would be adjusted in such an event) I think a sizeable amount could and do. I suggest that a lot of the upper percentages of the B-category contains mathematically able students, who didn't learn proofs, etc.

It's interesting that the number of pupils who get an A at Higher JC (20%), is about fifteen percent more than the combined number who get A1-B3* at higher LC. Comfortably in the realms of hypothesis, I suggest that means that, I dunno, 10% (?) of JC A-ers get less than an LC 'B'. I also think a slightly above-average student could rote-learn to an LC 'B' - I think you'll prob disagree with me on that one.

Its very easy to rote learn an A in JC Maths (at least the old course), I know a lot of people who got A-B in JC higher maths and are now doing OL for LC.

Good maths students don't learn off proofs. If they don't know them already then they see how its done in class and its in their head for the rest of their life.
Most JC and LC proofs are just simple geometry and the rest is just manipulation of formulas.

Nowadays most students just looks for formulas, they don't understand how or why stuff works. I bet that if you ask a LC students what integration is, 95% of them would say that its a way of finding the area under a line.

My last Maths teacher said that Maths is all about practise, and I don't think she was only referring to the LC. Under-qualified teacher also contribute to low grades. My current Maths teacher says that there is no time to think in the Maths exam, and that's true. LC maths exam just test how good someone is at repetitive tasks and at using a calculator, because lets be honest, is Maths still Maths without thinking?

So Leaving Cert Maths is not real maths. A/B grade student cannot say he is good at maths, all he can say is that hes good at LC "Maths".

yoyojc · 07-02-2014 4:16pm

Mario95 wrote: »

Its very easy to rote learn an A in JC Maths (at least the old course), I know a lot of people who got A-B in JC higher maths and are now doing OL for LC.

Good maths students don't learn off proof. If they don't know them already then they see how its done in class and its in their head for the rest of their life.
Most JC and LC proofs are just simple geometry and the rest is just manipulation of formulas.

Nowadays most students just looks for formulas, they don't understand how or why stuff works. I bet that if you ask a LC students what integration is, 95% of them would say that its a way of finding the area under a line.

My last Maths teacher said that Maths is all about practise, and I don't think she was only referring to the LC. Under-qualified teacher also contribute to low grades. My current Maths teacher says that there is no time to think in the Maths exam, and that's true. LC maths exam just test how good someone is at repetitive tasks and at using a calculator, because lets be honest, is Maths still Maths without thinking?

So Leaving Cert Maths is not real maths. A/B grade student cannot say he is good at maths, all he can say is that hes good at LC "Maths".

I kind of feel somewhat patronized by some of the comments because I got an A in my Junior Certificate and was wondering how hard it gets haha! I got a B in that one test and the reason I was asking is because I suppose I'm very hard on myself but we're doing Functions at the moment and I love that!

Jamezzyboyoo · 09-02-2014 6:33pm

yoyojc wrote: »

I kind of feel somewhat patronized by some of the comments because I got an A in my Junior Certificate and was wondering how hard it gets haha! I got a B in that one test and the reason I was asking is because I suppose I'm very hard on myself but we're doing Functions at the moment and I love that!

Hahaha trust me your not alone on that one! I've my maths P1 HL mocks tomorrow and we're ****ting it because we haven't a clue whats going to be asked! But never the less, you defiantly should plough on with maths, if you love functions, just wait until you come across the functions in trigonometry!

As a sixth year I'd advise any 5th years or T.Y's planning on doing HL maths to go back and learn off every chapter as you do them and keep building on them because all the chapters are linked and you'll see the rules of indices and that crop up everywhere and you need to know them!!

Difficulty Level of Honours Maths

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