Incidence of measles, mumps and rubella all increase due to anti-vaccine campaign

zenno · 26-01-2014 2:18pm

_Redzer_ wrote: »

It still doesn't seem to shift some conspiracist's views who don't trust any data to the contrary of their views, no matter what, so these people should be overruled. In an ideal world if their choices didn't affect anyone else besides their children then they can do what they like to them, but that's not the case so they shouldn't be pandered to.

My views in this might seem harsh, but if we want to eradicate disease an active and aggressive approach will see it done effectively, not a passive one. Polio could've been eliminated had it gone through such vigorous initiatives as smallpox did.

The way I see it from many different forums outside Boards.ie, is that there are many many sites and forums that do eject nonsensical's in relation to vaccines and they do try to force-frighten people to steer clear.
But this is a problem indeed. Folk need to go to professionals in the field and have a talk to talk with them even though it might cost a few quid, it will be worth it for piece of mind, and then the person can make their mind up. If they are still not personally secured in belief of the vaccines, then they still have the choice to look further into it and educate themselves further to come to the conclusion on what they should do.

Yes Redzer you are a harsh man indeed.

shruikan2553 · 26-01-2014 2:20pm

zenno wrote: »

That is irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is not about the educational system.

The government dictators force you to make sure your children get an education to their standards.
They tell you how you can discipline and treat your children.

Why? For their safety. Im sure you would much prefer to live in a country with actual dictators like north korea. None of these have stupid laws to protect children, it's my right to have children and raise them how I want. Damn them for telling us we have a responsibility to them too.

My name is URL · 26-01-2014 2:24pm

Even the British Medical Association are opposed to compulsory vaccinations, for pretty obvious reasons

“We have looked very carefully at the issue of compulsory vaccination and it is true that some countries do operate immunisation programmes where there is some degree of compulsion. However, the BMA does not think this would be right for the United Kingdom.”

“We think it is far preferable for doctors to inform and educate parents about the overwhelming benefits of vaccination, not only for their children but for society in general. The doctor-patient relationship is based on trust, choice and openness and we think introducing compulsory vaccination may be harmful to this.”

http://web.bma.org.uk/pressrel.nsf/wlu/STRE-5NVJVY?OpenDocument&vw=wfmms

I guess posters here know better than them, though :pac:

steddyeddy · 26-01-2014 2:25pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm pretty sure anyone on this thread against mandatory vacc is equally in favour of actually vacc in the first place and would think it stupid not to
Doesn't mean it needs to be a law

There are is an unacceptable amount of people who don't get their kids vaccinated. One poster here said 90% vaccinate their kids so that leaves 10% who don't. 10% in Ireland could be ~450-500,000. That's the guts of half a million people purposely withhold protection of some of the most damaging diseases from their kids. Just because most people do something right does not mean that we don't need a law for the people who don't.

B0jangles · 26-01-2014 2:25pm

There are people out there who are so committed to their own beliefs that no evidence that does not align with what they already "know" will shift them. Sometimes those beliefs are harmless, sometimes they are not. When those beliefs are inflicted on a child, then that child's needs and rights need to be protected.

See here for what can happen when children become the victim of their own parents' bad treatment choices:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/28/homeopathy-baby-death-couple-jailed

Edit: On the other hand, see the case of Mary Mallon AKA "Typhoid Mary" - incarcerated without trial for decades because she was unintentionally the cause of multiple outbreaks of typhoid because she insisted on repeatedly returning to her old job as a cook: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 2:27pm

zenno wrote: »

The way I see it from many different forums outside Boards.ie, is that there are many many sites and forums that do eject nonsensical's in relation to vaccines and they do try to force-frighten people to steer clear.
But this is a problem indeed. Folk need to go to professionals in the field and have a talk to talk with them even though it might cost a few quid, it will be worth it for piece of mind, and then the person can make their mind up. If they are still not personally secured in belief of the vaccines, then they still have the choice to look further into it and educate themselves further to come to the conclusion on what they should do.

Yes Redzer you are a harsh man indeed.

I'm not harsh, you're just being weak willed and looking at individuals in the wrong as the victims when their actions are harmful to others. The line should be toed with them.

For everyone who has opposed my views nearly all have dodged my points about smallpox. Do you think if smallpox was still around today should parents have a choice to have their children vaccinated against it? Do you think it wouldn't be around if it weren't for highly aggressive initiatives to eradicate it, which involved mandatory vaccination? Now look, smallpox has been wiped out because of that.
The "breach of human rights" lead to such a significant breakthrough the history of our species.

That could be the case again is measles and other diseases. It's those who cry about the misplaced human rights of individuals, while ignoring the well being of the collective population who slow that progress.

I'll reiterate that our interest is the protection of the health of our species, not to pander to some individual humans too ignorant to do what is right for the sake of the population.

Czarcasm · 26-01-2014 2:30pm

_Redzer_ wrote: »

Ensuring the health of the human race>>>> some ignorant parent.

The issue of human rights here is nonexistent if they're a breach of safety to everyone because of their actions.

I'm not sure that's a road I'd like to see society going down again Redzer tbh. If you apply that same train of thought to other members of society you could easily deny many minorities in society their human rights on the basis that "they're a breach of safety to everyone because of their actions"...

steddyeddy · 26-01-2014 2:33pm

People denying the kids vaccines are denying their kids human rights to be healthy and free from illness.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 2:34pm

zenno wrote: »

The way I see it from many different forums outside Boards.ie, is that there are many many sites and forums that do eject nonsensical's in relation to vaccines and they do try to force-frighten people to steer clear.
But this is a problem indeed. Folk need to go to professionals in the field and have a talk to talk with them even though it might cost a few quid, it will be worth it for piece of mind, and then the person can make their mind up. If they are still not personally secured in belief of the vaccines, then they still have the choice to look further into it and educate themselves further to come to the conclusion on what they should do.

Yes Redzer you are a harsh man indeed.

You should have discussions with these people. They feel THEY are the educated one and you're the sheep being manipulated by big pharma.

This attitude is one of, "everyone I agree with it a hero," and, "and everyone else is brain dead idiot that believes whatever big brother tells them."

At the same time they're potentially hurting society and their children.

Some things we all agree aren't on. One of those is endangering the majority.

This is a prime example of the majority's rights trumping the individual's.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 2:37pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm not sure that's a road I'd like to see society going down again Redzer tbh. If you apply that same train of thought to other members of society you could easily deny many minorities in society their human rights on the basis that "they're a breach of safety to everyone because of their actions"...

If they are actually endangering society as a whole then they to should be stopped.

We aren't all little kingdoms unto ourself; we're members of a collective called society.

steddyeddy · 26-01-2014 2:39pm

There's some remarkable mental gymnastics going on here. "If definitely will vaccinate my kid with MMR but don't pass a law against not vaccinating my kids with it".

My name is URL · 26-01-2014 2:40pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

People denying the kids vaccines are denying their kids human rights to be healthy and free from illness.

They're literally worse than Hitler :rolleyes:

So, is anyone going to put forward a plan on how it could be implemented and enforced without causing greater problems than it mends.. or are you all just happy enough to circlejerk and preach about how terrible and evil some parents are.. and how they're destroying humanity as we know it?

whatdoicare · 26-01-2014 2:41pm

CJC999 wrote: »

I never knew about wakefields paper until I had children of my own but I was aware of people's beliefs that the MMR and autism may be linked as two friends of mine have children who are autistic and it began shortly after their MMR shots. It may be horse**** to you but certainly not to them. Both families have had more children but refused to give them their MMR vaccines because of what happened previously. Are they wrong? Do you know what it's like to live with a severely autistic child?

Can I ask you a question. Why was the study commissioned in the first place? There is very clearly a concern linking the two, there are thousands of cases worldwide where parents believe the two are linked. This is not just some random study conducted for the sake of it. Wakefields results may be fake and so people like you say that there is no evidence to link the two but equally there is no clear evidence available which says the two are definitely not linked. I will continue to believe as I do until someone can prove beyond doubt to the contrary.

I don't believe for a minute you have friends who have children with autism who went on to not vaccinate.
Autism Ireland's official stance is that there is no link to the vaccine and Autism. If they didn't vaccinate it means they didn't even do something as basic as sign up to an organisation there to help them and provide support and then they didn't even bother to speak to anyone in that organisation to help with their informed research.
There's no way they got a diagnosis and then went home and never tried to help their children with therapy/education/available extra help in school? No way.

My brother has Autism, I spend a hell of a lot of time working with people with Autism and not one, NOT ONE, parent blames the vaccine or went on to not vaccinate their other children. Do you know why? They went and did some research and spoke to those in the know.

They didn't base their decision on old debunked research. That's for sure.

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 2:41pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm not sure that's a road I'd like to see society going down again Redzer tbh. If you apply that same train of thought to other members of society you could easily deny many minorities in society their human rights on the basis that "they're a breach of safety to everyone because of their actions"...

No, this is talking in regards to health only, where what I am saying is factual. I'm not talking about human rights like gay marriage or any of that stuff. That's irrelevant to this discussion and is only throwing it off topic. I'm just talking about black and white facts about the health of our species in that in no way is giving choice in this situation beneficial to the individuals or the population as a while.

Both issues can be easily distinguished.

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 2:44pm

My name is URL wrote: »

They're literally worse than Hitler :rolleyes:

So, is anyone going to put forward a plan on how it could be implemented and enforced without causing greater problems than it mends.. or are you all just happy enough to circlejerk and preach about how terrible and evil some parents are.. and how they're destroying humanity as we know it?

What greater problems will it cause? Potential to wipe out disease for good, or some parents will get hysterical for no good reason?

Red Pepper · 26-01-2014 2:44pm

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Vaccines should absolutely not be mandatory, nobody should have a right to force people into doing anything with their bodies or their children's bodies. Swine flu vaccine narcolepsy that's all.

The swine flu vaccine was a disgrace. Big pharma made huge money from untested vaccines because our stupid government were spooked into rushing it out. We did not get it and I am so so glad.

My name is URL · 26-01-2014 2:44pm

_Redzer_ wrote: »

What greater problems will it cause? Potential to wipe out disease for good, or some parents will get hysterical for no good reason?

How would it be implemented and enforced from a legal standpoint?

zenno · 26-01-2014 2:45pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The government dictators force you to make sure your children get an education to their standards.
They tell you how you can discipline and treat your children.

Why? For their safety. Im sure you would much prefer to live in a country with actual dictators like north korea. None of these have stupid laws to protect children, it's my right to have children and raise them how I want. Damn them for telling us we have a responsibility to them too.

How is the weather there in north Korea ? I hope it's not too hot for you, 99% humidity I heard, is the heat affecting your judgement ???.

Twist your words around to the east as much as you like to fit your private non-reality laws. Enjoy the weather kid.

[Deleted User] · 26-01-2014 2:45pm

_Redzer_ wrote: »

No, this is talking in regards to health only, where what I am saying is factual. I'm not talking about human rights like gay marriage or any of that stuff. That's irrelevant to this discussion and is only throwing it off topic. I'm just talking about black and white facts about the health of our species in that in no way is giving choice in this situation beneficial to the individuals or the population as a while.

Both issues can be easily distinguished.

How about those with genetic disorders? Should they be prevented from breeding because of the possible detrimental effect it might have on society? The reasoning behind "vaccines ought to be compulsory as they're beneficial to society has a whole" applies exactly to this scenario.

steddyeddy · 26-01-2014 2:47pm

gvn wrote: »

How about those with genetic disorders? Should they be prevented from breeding because of the possible detrimental effect it might have on society? The reasoning behind "vaccines ought to be compulsory as they're beneficial to society has a whole" applies exactly to this scenario.

They already have clinical geneticists who advise couples on the likelyhood of producing a child with genetic defects.

[Deleted User] · 26-01-2014 2:48pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

They already have clinical geneticists who advise couples on the likelyhood of producing a child with genetic defects.

I didn't ask whether individuals should be advised; I asked whether individuals should be prevented.

Red Pepper · 26-01-2014 2:49pm

roadrunner16 wrote: »

I agree however If you want your kids enrolled a public school and mixing with other kids then they should have the vaccines.

TESTED VACCINES YES! But the swine flu vaccine was not adequately tested. Money trumped side effects in that instance. People were way too obedient.

steddyeddy · 26-01-2014 2:50pm

How about the heel prick test that's performed on every baby born in Ireland. Do people have a problem with that? Phenlyketonuria was a problem in Ireland before this was introduced. Now the test can catch people early and prevent the nuerological symptoms that occur with the illness.

B0jangles · 26-01-2014 2:52pm

What I find frustrating is how incredibly easy it is to make up some "common-sense" -sounding bullshít and throw it up on Facebook, but establishing actual facts can take years of work.

Person A can say "I think there's a link between vaccines and autism because some children show the first signs of autism in the 6 months after they were vaccinated."

Person B says "But if children all get their vaccines at that age, and that is also the age when the first signs of autism become apparent how can you assume that there is a connection? That makes no sense!"

Person A "I just think there must be a connection - prove to me that there isn't!"

Person B - Goes off and applies for a grant to carry out a large-scale study on the possible causes of autism. Receives funding a year later. Starts the study which goes on for 15 years and includes 10,000 children from birth to the age of 10. Finds no link between vaccines and autism. Returns to their amazingly patient anti-vax friend with the final report and the conclusions. "There!"

Person A: Scans the results for a couple of minutes "So you didn't find a connection? That doesn't prove that there isn't one, does it?"

Person B: Beats person A to death with a copy of the study data

Muise... · 26-01-2014 2:56pm

B0jangles wrote: »

What I find frustrating is how incredibly easy it is to make up some "common-sense" -sounding bullshít and throw it up on Facebook, but establishing actual facts can take years of work.

Person A can say "I think there's a link between vaccines and autism because some children show the first signs of autism in the 6 months after they were vaccinated."

Person B says "But if children all get their vaccines at that age, and that is also the age when the first signs of autism become apparent how can you assume that there is a connection? That makes no sense!"

Person A "I just think there must be a connection - prove to me that there isn't!"

Person B - Goes off and applies for a grant to carry out a large-scale study on the possible causes of autism. Receives funding a year later. Starts the study which goes on for 15 years and includes 10,000 children from birth to the age of 10. Finds no link between vaccines and autism. Returns to their amazingly patient anti-vax friend with the final report and the conclusions. "There!"

Person A: Scans the results for a couple of minutes "So you didn't find a connection? That doesn't prove that there isn't one, does it?"

Person B: Beats person A to death with a copy of the study data

Hysteria spreads just like a virus. There is no vaccine.

steddyeddy · 26-01-2014 2:59pm

gvn wrote: »

I didn't ask whether individuals should be advised; I asked whether individuals should be prevented.

To prevent someone from having children is to deny a persons human rights. Giving a child a vaccine isn't.

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 2:59pm

gvn wrote: »

How about those with genetic disorders? Should they be prevented from breeding because of the possible detrimental effect it might have on society? The reasoning behind "vaccines ought to be compulsory as they're beneficial to society has a whole" applies exactly to this scenario.

Not exactly, no. Genetic disorders aren't contagious. They're confined to the individual.

I already stated if a parent who refused to vaccinate their child, and then developed an illness, and that illness was self contained to that child, I wouldn't see it as an issue. It would be the parent's fault in that circumstance, but the illness wouldn't affect the health of others.

In reality it does, and we have the potential to eradicate the disease. Unless aggressive initiatives are taken, that won't happen.

So why beat around the bush and let something that we could wipe out in under 50 years be allowed to circumvent the population? The logical thing to do is to just kill it off and we won't have to deal with it again.

steddyeddy · 26-01-2014 3:00pm

Should the Heel prick test not be mandatory for Irish newborns?

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 3:02pm

My name is URL wrote: »

How would it be implemented and enforced from a legal standpoint?

You said it would cause greater problems than it would mend so I think you should explain that first.

zenno · 26-01-2014 3:03pm

B0jangles wrote: »

What I find frustrating is how incredibly easy it is to make up some "common-sense" -sounding bullshít and throw it up on Facebook, but establishing actual facts can take years of work.

Person A can say "I think there's a link between vaccines and autism because some children show the first signs of autism in the 6 months after they were vaccinated."

Person B says "But if children all get their vaccines at that age, and that is also the age when the first signs of autism become apparent how can you assume that there is a connection? That makes no sense!"

Person A "I just think there must be a connection - prove to me that there isn't!"

Person B - Goes off and applies for a grant to carry out a large-scale study on the possible causes of autism. Receives funding a year later. Starts the study which goes on for 15 years and includes 10,000 children from birth to the age of 10. Finds no link between vaccines and autism. Returns to their amazingly patient anti-vax friend with the final report and the conclusions. "There!"

Person A: Scans the results for a couple of minutes "So you didn't find a connection? That doesn't prove that there isn't one, does it?"

Person B: Beats person A to death with a copy of the study data

10 years in the future, the government beats to death it's citizens with mandatory vaccinations.

Incidence of measles, mumps and rubella all increase due to anti-vaccine campaign

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