Incidence of measles, mumps and rubella all increase due to anti-vaccine campaign

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 12:54pm

KnotABother wrote: »

Yes and thus why it should be mandatory! Why do you think they go in to schools to vaccinate them?

Vaccination and medicine has almost killed of diseases like Polio and TB that used to killed 1000s of kids every year. So yes medicine can get control over disease. If a child cannot be vaccinated it is usually because their immune system is suppressed or weak. In that case they will no be around other kids or will have very limited exposure to other children for fear they will get a simple cough or cold and die.

This is the most interesting part.....if I chose to beat and molest my kids nobody should have an opinion on it? If I choose to not feed them nobody should have an opinion? Of course people will have an opinion, so what I'm saying is that I am of the opinion that people should not be allowed send their kids to school if they may be carrying diseases that can harm other kids.

If people do not want to vaccinate then that is their choice but their kids should not be allowed put the health of other kids at risk.

Sure, if I choose to give my 13/yo a bunch of crystal meth and a loaded gun, then send him to school. That's MY business.

Oh wait. No.

twowheelsgood · 26-01-2014 12:58pm

iguana wrote: »

Wrong. The Irish Constitution actually specifically states that the parent is the child's primary educator and while every child is entitled to a school place the parent chooses whether or not to send them to school.

I didn’t mention school. True, it is not obligatory that children go to school. It is that they are educated.

Drakares · 26-01-2014 1:00pm

These people are responsible for thousands of deaths every year. There have been THREE extensive, very very very extensive studies by WHO in collaboration with independent scientists that concluded with no evidence linking these vaccines to autism. Morons are very quick to jump on the bandwagon without being remotely qualified to speak on the issue.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 1:01pm

iguana wrote: »

Wrong. The Irish Constitution actually specifically states that the parent is the child's primary educator and while every child is entitled to a school place the parent chooses whether or not to send them to school.

That's a half-truth at best.

Parents are forced to educate their children, either through mandatory schools or states monitored home schools.

The state has broad scope to shut down a home school and strike it off the register.

At that point a parent COULD pay for private education, but again that school would be under the control of the state - to a large degree.

zenno · 26-01-2014 1:01pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

They may educate their children at home but they do not have the option not to educate them at all, even if they genuinely have fears about indoctrination, or anything else.

So the point remains. The state does not give parents absolutely autonomy is deciding what’s best for their children.

There is a line. Things like basic welfare and education are not within the gift of parents to give or withhold. Religious indoctrination (to borrow your word!) is their call (though some think it should not be). But if these religious convictions compromise the child’s welfare (e.g. no to blood transfusions) then this is back on the “not the parents call” side of the line.

So the question in relation to vaccination asks which side of the line it should be. For me, there is a strong a case for making them mandatory as there is for making education mandatory. Mind, I don’t think it will happen any time soon.

You can bet your bottom dollar it will not happen any time soon. It will never happen as long as you are intertwined in the EU, according to human rights, and the right to choose freely. I love being part of the EU.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 1:03pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I didn’t mention school. True, it is not obligatory that children go to school. It is that they are educated.

It's mandatory that a child be educated in a state approved environment.

twowheelsgood · 26-01-2014 1:04pm

zenno wrote: »

You can bet your bottom dollar it will not happen any time soon. It will never happen as long as you are intertwined in the EU, according to human rights, and the right to choose freely. I love being part of the EU.

So do you think the requirement that children be educated (not sent to school!) be done away with too?

SpaceTime · 26-01-2014 1:06pm

A friend of mine was recently told by a 'friend' that she was unfit to have children because she argued that she would definitely vaccinate her kids.

There are some unbelievably unscientific, illogical, conspiracy theorists out there with quite zealot-like approaches to life where nobody can have a rational discussion with them.

I'm quite glad I was vaccinated and didn't get any of the horrendous illnesses that killed many of my grandmother's siblings and contemporaries back before WWII!

coffee_cake · 26-01-2014 1:06pm

So because the govt have some power already we should give them more
Great argument

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 1:08pm

bluewolf wrote: »

So because the govt have some power already we should give them more
Great argument

It makes more sense than the "I'm a paranoid nut so I get to potentially harm my children and society" argument.

coffee_cake · 26-01-2014 1:09pm

MilanPan!c wrote: »

It makes more sense than the "I'm a paranoid nut so I get to potentially harm my children and society" argument.

I'm pretty sure anyone on this thread against mandatory vacc is equally in favour of actually vacc in the first place and would think it stupid not to
Doesn't mean it needs to be a law

Friend Computer · 26-01-2014 1:12pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Of course parents should vacc, but equally of course it shouldn't be mandatory.
Education is what's needed here, not "do this because we say so"

As we've seen on this thread there are people who just aren't interested in educating themselves or being informed. They want to wallow in their own ignorance.

Fine. But we already accept the state can step in to protect children, why should this be any different? Children aren't capable of choosing what's in their own best interests which is why others (parents or legal guardians, typically) have to do it for them.

zenno · 26-01-2014 1:12pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

So do you think the requirement that children be educated (not sent to school!) be done away with too?

That is irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is not about the educational system.

twowheelsgood · 26-01-2014 1:27pm

zenno wrote: »

That is irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is not about the educational system.

Not really. Your “human rights” position, if I understand you correctly, is that parents should have the right to decide what is best for their children in relation to vaccines. So if you will afford them this right, on what basis can you deny them the right to choose if their children will be educated?

zenno · 26-01-2014 1:37pm

Friend Computer wrote: »

As we've seen on this thread there are people who just aren't interested in educating themselves or being informed. They want to wallow in their own ignorance.

Fine. But we already accept the state can step in to protect children, why should this be any different? Children aren't capable of choosing what's in their own best interests which is why others (parents or legal guardians, typically) have to do it for them.

Your comment above seems to make out that most parents are idiots, I question your status.

You, and some previous cohorts, dictate that what you want introduced "mandatory" be justified because of your self-belief, well pal, it's being ad nauseum repeated here. You cannot over-throw your rattle out of the pram to suit your ideals when it comes to other parent intelligences.

Get the heck down off that high horse dictating.

Goodbye, I've read enough dictatorism for one night.

For parents that are unsure about vaccines, I, and I'm sure most genuine folk here would like for you to spend some time investigating the vaccines with your doctor and online professionally to make up your mind.

We can blab on here all year about it, but it is up to you, the parent, to educate yourself on all matters of vaccinations. There are very dodgy sites online that will give astounding falsities, just stick to the scientific journals and make your own mind up.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 1:38pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm pretty sure anyone on this thread against mandatory vacc is equally in favour of actually vacc in the first place and would think it stupid not to
Doesn't mean it needs to be a law

The problem is this:

Laws aren't made for reasonable people.

They're made to protect society from unreasonable people.

As you point out, this law wouldn't have any impact on the vast majority.

Only on the fringer nutcases.

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 1:39pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm pretty sure anyone on this thread against mandatory vacc is equally in favour of actually vacc in the first place and would think it stupid not to
Doesn't mean it needs to be a law

Why not?

There's global initiatives to eradicate diseases like polio and measles. The deadline for polio was 2000 and it was missed, the deadline for measles is sometime in the future. The vaccination programme for smallpox was mandatory and as a result it's been eradicated.

Those who choose not to vaccinate their children do so out of ignorance and are only creating incubators for the disease. It is in the collective interest of humankind to wipe out any disease we can, that's why any individual who opposes without good reason should be superseded because it stands in the way of the greater good of our race.

coffee_cake · 26-01-2014 1:40pm

_Redzer_ wrote: »

that's why any individual who opposes without good reason should be superseded because it stands in the way of the greater good of our race.

Jesus

I have no idea what to even say to that, so I'm just going to reiterate that I think it should be overcome with education

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 1:42pm

zenno wrote: »

Your comment above seems to make out that most parents are idiots, I question your status.

You, and some previous cohorts, dictate that what you want introduced "mandatory" be justified because of your self-belief, well pal, it's being ad nauseum repeated here. You cannot over-throw your rattle out of the pram to suit your ideals when it comes to other parent intelligences.

Get the heck down off that high horse dictating.

Goodbye, I've read enough dictatorism for one night.

For parents that are unsure about vaccines, I, and I'm sure most genuine folk here would like for you to spend some time investigating the vaccines with your doctor and online professionally to make up your mind.

We can blab on here all year about it, but it is up to you, the parent, to educate yourself on all matters of vaccinations. There are very dodgy sites online that will give astounding falsities, just stick to the scientific journals and make your own mind up.

Sorry if I too do not trust the sort of people that read and spread Wakefield and the rest, to make rational decisions for the whole of society.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 1:44pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Jesus

I have no idea what to even say to that, so I'm just going to reiterate that I think it should be overcome with education

The internet is proving to be more persuasive than the government - to many people.

Self-education is also not a great answer when there's endless conmen online making thousands of lying and scaring the gullible and fearful.

This issue is to important to leave up to people just naturally copping on.

zenno · 26-01-2014 1:50pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Not really. Your “human rights” position, if I understand you correctly, is that parents should have the right to decide what is best for their children in relation to vaccines. So if you will afford them this right, on what basis can you deny them the right to choose if their children will be educated?

@ twowheelsgood

Correct, without question.

Let me just say this... every human being entering this world will be educated, because this is the natural order, it is paramount, and naturally it takes it's course no matter what country you are in. Not one person would allow a child not to be educated, it's deeply inside us all to teach others no matter what.

The human rights issue, as was said... 'the right to choose' is also paramount whether we like it or not, once the rights of a person is not abused within governed law.

My name is URL · 26-01-2014 1:51pm

MilanPan!c wrote: »

The internet is proving to be more persuasive than the government - to many people.

Self-education is also not a great answer when there's endless conmen online making thousands of lying and scaring the gullible and fearful.

This issue is to important to leave up to people just naturally copping on.

So how would you propose that it's actually made mandatory, then? What would the punishment be for refusing? Will a van pull up outside your home, health providers come in and restrain you while your child is put through the trauma of being forcibly injected?

Maybe the kids should just be taken from the parents and put in care? Heavy fines perhaps, or barred from accessing other types of healthcare?

It's a stupid idea that would do more harm than good. The small minority of people who flatly refuse to be vaccinated need to be educated about why vaccination is important, not just for them, but for the wider population. Forcing people into doing something which they simply don't understand would be counter-productive, and cause even more people to become distrustful of the medical industry.

Corkfeen · 26-01-2014 1:52pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Jesus

I have no idea what to even say to that, so I'm just going to reiterate that I think it should be overcome with education

Think I'm siding with you on this tbh. The best option is probably to overhaul the entire education side of things alongside pointing out the fact that Wakefield was discredited and found to be working for single jab vaccine companies. An explanation on the importance of a herd immunity and the dangers of it being damaged.

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 1:55pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Jesus

I have no idea what to even say to that, so I'm just going to reiterate that I think it should be overcome with education

It still doesn't seem to shift some conspiracists' views who don't trust any data to the contrary of their views, no matter what, so these people should be overruled. In an ideal world if their choices didn't affect anyone else besides their children then they can do what they like to them, but that's not the case, so they shouldn't be pandered to.

My views in this might seem harsh, but if we want to eradicate disease, an active and aggressive approach will see it done effectively, not a passive one. Polio could've been eliminated had it gone through such vigorous initiatives as smallpox did.

Friend Computer · 26-01-2014 2:01pm

zenno wrote: »

Your comment above seems to make out that most parents are idiots, I question your status.

What? Did you quote the wrong post? Because nowhere in mine did I state or intimate what you said.

I won't hide that I've a low opinion of the, few thankfully, here who remain steadfastly ignorant in the face of people showing there's no link between the vaccine and autism. If they want to believe that they're perfectly entitled to but I do not believe for one second that they should be allowed to put their kids at risk because of it.

The state should step in to protect the vulnerable from people who put them at risk.

SpaceTime · 26-01-2014 2:08pm

The problem with not immunising is that you're also putting other children, adults and also pregnant women at risk.

Many of the diseases are wiped out by maintaining a high level of community immunity. So there is nobody with active disease and it does not get spread and effectively dies out. If its still active it gets to spread and mutate and adapt potentially rendering our immunity useless!

It's totally irrational, non science and puts your kids and the whole community at risk when you don't immunise.

I think governments' duty is to act in the interest of the greater good.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 2:08pm

My name is URL wrote: »

So how would you propose that it's actually made mandatory, then? What would the punishment be for refusing? Will a van pull up outside your home, health providers come in and restrain you while your child is put through the trauma of being forcibly injected?

Maybe the kids should just be taken from the parents and put in care? Heavy fines perhaps, or barred from accessing other types of healthcare?

It's a stupid idea that would do more harm than good. The small minority of people who flatly refuse to be vaccinated need to be educated about why vaccination is important, not just for them, but for the wider population. Forcing people into doing something which they simply don't understand would be counter-productive, and cause even more people to become distrustful of the medical industry.

Parents are infrequently but not never relieved of their children if they can't look after them.

This is the same sort of situation.

The tools and structure is already in place.

MilanPan!c · 26-01-2014 2:09pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

The problem with not immunising is that you're also putting other children, adults and also pregnant women at risk.

Many of the diseases are wiped out by maintaining a high level of community immunity. So there is nobody with active disease and it does not get spread and effectively dies out. If its still active it gets to spread and mutate and adapt potentially rendering our immunity useless!

It's totally irrational, non science and puts your kids and the whole community at risk when you don't immunise.

I think governments' duty is to act in the interest of the greater good.

This is it exactly.

You have no RIGHT to endangering strangers.

_Redzer_ · 26-01-2014 2:10pm

Ensuring the health of the human race>>>> some ignorant parent.

The issue of human rights here is nonexistent if they're a breach of safety to everyone because of their actions.

WhatNowForUs? · 26-01-2014 2:16pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Of course parents should vacc, but equally of course it shouldn't be mandatory.
Education is what's needed here, not "do this because we say so"

But how can you educate against the argument of "Show me studies that show vaccines are 100% safe" or how do you educate people on correlation does not equal causation when its not something that can be taught over a commercial on a TV screen.

Incidence of measles, mumps and rubella all increase due to anti-vaccine campaign

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