Incidence of measles, mumps and rubella all increase due to anti-vaccine campaign

zenno · 26-01-2014 6:16am

whatdoicare wrote: »

zenno wrote: »

The reason people won't do it seems obvious, hysteria based on ignorance, gossip and scaremongering. Parents are easy to scare, I being a parent, am well aware how delicate my baby is and ill try to protect her to the point of being irrational.

Parents read these stupid warning posts and without doing any research will pass it on as fact (and usually throw in a bit of Johnny next door friends kid got sick so it's proof) anything that puts doubt in a parents mind will do this. The one with walkers research has been around since the 1980s. The suspected preservative toted as the cause isn't even used anymore. Yet, every year I'll see that post up on parenting sites and Facebook frightening new parents. I even had a friend of mine post it even though she works with Autism research and knows better . she even admitted to me that it was stupid of her. That's the power of fear.

Just look at the "white van" posts. Everyone has seen those posts warning parents that so and so's kid got approached by a white van offering sweeties. Everyone knows it's a load of ****e but will pass it along anyway, just in case.

Will you do me a favour and quote my comment as was originally posted please. You have somehow added errors to my English spelling, please fix this as you have used my comment in an error form, thank you. #89 you quoted me from is where the error is.

If you are going to Quote a person, make sure you do it correctly please.

Your error below.

@ whatdoicare I'm just saying that there is a reason why some parents don't want to vaccinate their child, it needs to be looked into as to'll 't want to vaccinate their child, making it mandatory will not happen in this country

Thanks.

Zenno.

Fred Swanson · 26-01-2014 6:26am

This post has been deleted.

dsmythy · 26-01-2014 9:29am

Don't think it should be mandatory but I would look dimly on those who don't bother and have no good reason not to vaccinate. Also regarding liberty and human rights I would take the liberty to lobby the local school not to admit unreasonably unvaccinated children to protect the rights of my own child.

MarkR · 26-01-2014 9:49am

My son is on the spectrum, and if I have another kid, they will get the vaccine. It's all causality. Most kids are diagnosed with ASD by about 4. Most kids were vaccinated with the 4 in 1 jab before that, so they added 1 and 1 and came up with 3.

Plenty of ASD kids are diagnosed before the jabs. They are saying now that by head tilts etc that they can be diagnosed at the baby stage.

Initial concerns that mercury in the jab was ruled out when they removed mercury from the formulation in the early 90's. If that had been the cause, numbers would have fallen. This isn't the case.

Have a look at a scientific website, http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/Index.html rather than someone who's famous for having a rocking rack.

My sister in law is a specialist in regards to children with ASD (coincidence). She diagnoses and works with them every day. Her kids are vaccinated.

If you want to make an informed decision, fine. But don't just adopt an opinion because of something you read on facebook.

cuckoo · 26-01-2014 10:08am

Muise... wrote: »

Then you have the headache of the constitutional right to education being denied to children of idiot parents. That said, they do tend to gather in homeopathic-vegan-Steiner Waldorf-angel-healing-dreamcatchers, so perhaps they can be quarantined efficiently in their fairy forts.

I don't think there's a constitutional right to Children's Allowance, so i'd start there by making vaccination a condition of receiving it.

(with exemption to the small number of children with immune conditions, etc that mean they shouldn't be vaccinated - certified by the hospital consultant treating that child, not the local witch doctor or homeopath).

Cee-Jay-Cee · 26-01-2014 10:21am

ballsymchugh wrote: »

go find the peer reviewed research before thinking horse**** like this. andrew wakefield was paid handsomely for his BOGUS research into this and has rightfully paid the price.
look at the measles epidemic that happened a couple of years ago in wales to see the damage he caused.

I never knew about wakefields paper until I had children of my own but I was aware of people's beliefs that the MMR and autism may be linked as two friends of mine have children who are autistic and it began shortly after their MMR shots. It may be horse**** to you but certainly not to them. Both families have had more children but refused to give them their MMR vaccines because of what happened previously. Are they wrong? Do you know what it's like to live with a severely autistic child?

Can I ask you a question. Why was the study commissioned in the first place? There is very clearly a concern linking the two, there are thousands of cases worldwide where parents believe the two are linked. This is not just some random study conducted for the sake of it. Wakefields results may be fake and so people like you say that there is no evidence to link the two but equally there is no clear evidence available which says the two are definitely not linked. I will continue to believe as I do until someone can prove beyond doubt to the contrary.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 26-01-2014 10:24am

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Some people would say the opposite steddyeddy. Not so long ago I was bullied in to giving my daughter the swine flu vaccine I refused and was told to expect dire consequences. I don't know a single person who got swine flu but reading stories all the time about people who developed narcolepsy.
There is not one single study that says vaccines don't cause autism in actual fact there has been s few cases recently where children were awarded compensation because courts found that vaccines did cause their autism

O this'll be good. Please link me to that.

Annasopra · 26-01-2014 10:32am

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Vaccines should absolutely not be mandatory, nobody should have a right to force people into doing anything with their bodies or their children's bodies. Swine flu vaccine narcolepsy that's all.

I think it's a form of child abuse to refuse them.

iguana · 26-01-2014 10:40am

KnotABother wrote: »

Not true. If you are not vaccinated then you are an agar plate for disease. Diseases can mutate in your system or in the systems of many unvaccinated kids it is passed to and then be passed on to other kids who even though vaccinated are infected with the mutated strain. If you vaccinate all kids then the disease has very few places to go and is likely to die out more or less in the population like polio did.

My son will be fully vaccinated, not so much because I worry about his health but because I feel a responsibility toward other children with weakened immune systems and feel we have a responsibility as a society to take care of our weakest members. But we can't enforce mandatory vaccinations. Try look at this from another point of view. We all know that, on average, children who aren't breastfed suffer from a higher rate of illness than is the biological norm. So do we make breastfeeding (to the WHO and HSE recommendations of 6 months exclusively and then a minimum of another 18 months complimentary) mandatory? You can't do that, even though it would most likely benefit society as a whole.

The way forward is honest and open campaigns that address people's fears without making them feel dismissed but that also explain the importance of herd immunity in easy to understand ways.

Annasopra · 26-01-2014 10:50am

zenno wrote: »

You obviously don't understand the mechanism of human rights.

Here's a question for you? If as a parent you refuse to vaccinate your children; couldn't that be a violation of the childs human right to healthcare?

B0jangles · 26-01-2014 10:52am

CJC999 wrote: »

Can I ask you a question. Why was the study commissioned in the first place?

Wakefield was paid more than $674,000 by a law firm who were in the process of suing vaccine manufacturers.

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/wakefield-deal.htm

TL/DR he was paid a large sum of money to establish a link between vaccines and autism.

Also, how does one go about proving a negative? Surely it is up to the person making a claim to prove its truth? And just because thousands of people believe something does not make it any way true. Thousands of people belive in UFO's but I've yet to see any proof that aliens have landed on earth.

VVV It's not personal choice if it affects other people; the child has the right to grow up as healthy as possible, the community has a right to be protected from needless risk. For example, I can choose to smoke if I want to, but I have no right to inflict my smoking on other people, hence the smoking ban. VVV

zenno · 26-01-2014 10:53am

No wonder this country is fecked and twisted in a knot so many times it strangles you. All I see is dictators. Wanting to control other folk - parents, because you think they are below you and stupid and dumb and of which has no intelligence of which you want to have control with mandatory/compulsory laws.

You might want to reflect on your own philosophy and previous questions you ask, to understand deeper into the realisation why a parent/person makes such a choice. All this garbage I have read here is just dictat abuse towards folk that have their reasons but are either not happy explaining it here or are non-existant reading this thread.

Sure, soon, in 20 years, probably less, citizens will be forced to do what the government say without question because of people that want everything mandatory, but you will give the government the power from being a servant to the people, the power to fully control your rights to freedom.

emmabrighton · 26-01-2014 10:56am

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

How are you negatively impacting the health of other children? If they are vaccinated they shouldn't be at any risk.

Sorry if this has been said before but what about kids who have to take imune-suppressant drugs or kids with CF and the like... they are being put at risk by people not vaccinating their kids...

Of course I can say this because I vaccinate my son but when I brought my son home from hospital - prem baby - I was told not to let him mix with other kids because his immunity was weak and you dont know who vaccinates their kids and who dont vaccinate :mad:

So my son had to stay home for his first 9 months

Gatling · 26-01-2014 11:00am

Glad to see hippisms alive and well,( fight the man )
What pisses me off is these parents who refuse to vaccinate there kids will then happily send them off to school when they contract an contagious and dangerous disease / infection call it what you like ,
One thing I've heard a lot is young parents saying the likes of mumps ,rubella and so on is something granny would have got but them things are all gone now so no need to worry about them any more

Annasopra · 26-01-2014 11:01am

zenno wrote: »

No wonder this country is fecked and twisted in a knot so many times it strangles you. All I see is dictators. Wanting to control other folk - parents, because you think they are below you and stupid and dumb and of which has no intelligence of which you want to have control with mandatory/compulsory laws.

You might want to reflect on your own philosophy and previous questions you ask, to understand deeper into the realisation why a parent/person makes such a choice. All this garbage I have read here is just dictat abuse towards folk that have their reasons but are either not happy explaining it here or are non-existant reading this thread.

Sure, soon, in 20 years time citizens will be forced to do what the government say without question because of people that want everything mandatory, but you will give the government the power from being a servant to the people, the power to fully control your rights to freedom.

I'd be interested in your answer to my question

B0jangles · 26-01-2014 11:10am

The thing is, if you try to counter the anecdotal crap with actual data - multiple peer-reviewed studies and so on, you run up against the "All the doctors are in the pocket of Big Pharma!" crowd, who reject pretty much anything from the accredited scientific community but accept everything that totally believable sources like "VaXXine$Cau$eAuti$m53" post on Youtube.

coffee_cake · 26-01-2014 11:28am

Of course parents should vacc, but equally of course it shouldn't be mandatory.
Education is what's needed here, not "do this because we say so"

twowheelsgood · 26-01-2014 11:47am

bluewolf wrote: »

Of course parents should vacc, but equally of course it shouldn't be mandatory.
Education is what's needed here, not "do this because we say so"

Interesting you mention education. Because for our children, that of course IS mandatory. So the state does already dictate to parents what is best for their children in some areas so the notion that making vaccination compulsory would be breaking new ground is bogus.

Parents who elect not to vaccinate their children undoubtedly have their reasons, which are equally undoubtedly, sincerely held. They are just not, in many cases, good reasons.

Look at some of the logic been used on this thread.
“I know of a child who had the vaccination and later became autistic” !!!

Or

“I am keeping an open mind / refusing to vaccinate until it is proven that vaccinations to not lead to autism” !!!

Should we permit parents the option to refuse to have their children educated if they concoct some “logical” argument that education is a cause of some woe that befalls people in later life?

The Black Oil · 26-01-2014 11:58am

This debate is a bit like the climate change one with various camps from moderates to fringe elements. If you're moderately skeptical, that's fair enough. If you're simply there to deny and push misinformation, well, I've little time for you.

Mandatory uptake? Open to question. Having doubts - mandatory education from properly trained health professionals? Yes.

I'm sure there are GPs out there who've experienced parents coming into their practice with whatever conspiracy bollocks they've printed off the web. Thanks to the likes of Jenny McCarthy and Wakefield (that's Mr. Wakefield given his shennanigans, btw) this stuff has gained traction.

lollsangel · 26-01-2014 12:03pm

I have almost 5 year old boy girl twins. Before giving them vaccines I researched the disease they were preventing and the possible side effects of each. I chose to give all but the swine flu jab as I wasnt happy with the amount6nt of info I could get, plus they werent out much so I chose not8t to give it.

I would never tell any other parents they must vaccinate their kids, however if the have something infectious not to mix them with other kids, vaccines are ineffective in someand some immunosuppressed cannot be vaccinated.

pablomakaveli · 26-01-2014 12:05pm

CJC999 wrote: »

I never knew about wakefields paper until I had children of my own but I was aware of people's beliefs that the MMR and autism may be linked as two friends of mine have children who are autistic and it began shortly after their MMR shots. It may be horse**** to you but certainly not to them. Both families have had more children but refused to give them their MMR vaccines because of what happened previously. Are they wrong? Do you know what it's like to live with a severely autistic child?

Do they actually have any evidence for their claims or is it just something they concluded themselves with no evidence?

I'm betting on the latter.

Brian? · 26-01-2014 12:15pm

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

How are you negatively impacting the health of other children? If they are vaccinated they shouldn't be at any risk.

Because they can host the virus and pass it in to younger siblings who haven't been vaccinated.

zenno · 26-01-2014 12:20pm

mango salsa wrote: »

Here's a question for you? If as a parent you refuse to vaccinate your children; couldn't that be a violation of the childs human right to healthcare?

Sorry my friend, I must have saved the following page thread without looking back.

Indeed that is an interesting scenario. Yes, that could be classed - if embedded in newly changed law as a violation of a child's human right. But the parent is the master and the overseer of the rights of their child according to the laws now.

I understand the point you are making, but, if the law was changed to take away the rights of a good parent that refuses to vaccinate their child, wouldn't that be a violation of the parents rights...

Mandatory/Compulsory cannot work in a democracy, well, a real democracy. It just cannot work, and will not be tolerated. As was said, education is the key.

Karl Stein · 26-01-2014 12:20pm

I'm not sure what to think. I believe people should have the right to bodily integrity but also think that public health measures such as clean water, sewerage infrastructure, and mass vaccinations is what makes our existence infinitely more advanced than the other animals.

SpaceTime · 26-01-2014 12:28pm

I wonder if your child were badly damaged by a disease because you had refused to vaccinate them would they then have grounds to sue you later on?

Some of the diseases vaccines prevent and have basically eradicated are pretty awful and can do serious life long damage eg Polio could leave someone paralysed and disabled.

coffee_cake · 26-01-2014 12:28pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Should we permit parents the option to refuse to have their children educated if they concoct some “logical” argument that education is a cause of some woe that befalls people in later life?

Like getting beaten or indoctrinated?
In any case parents can educate their kids at home if they want

angelfire9 · 26-01-2014 12:32pm

This just came up in my FB feed

twowheelsgood · 26-01-2014 12:44pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Like getting beaten or indoctrinated?
In any case parents can educate their kids at home if they want

They may educate their children at home but they do not have the option not to educate them at all, even if they genuinely have fears about indoctrination, or anything else.

So the point remains. The state does not give parents absolutely autonomy is deciding what’s best for their children.

There is a line. Things like basic welfare and education are not within the gift of parents to give or withhold. Religious indoctrination (to borrow your word!) is their call (though some think it should not be). But if these religious convictions compromise the child’s welfare (e.g. no to blood transfusions) then this is back on the “not the parents call” side of the line.

So the question in relation to vaccination asks which side of the line it should be. For me, there is a strong a case for making them mandatory as there is for making education mandatory. Mind, I don’t think it will happen any time soon.

minidazzler · 26-01-2014 12:46pm

lynski wrote: »

Dont think this is possible in Ireland, or it is very dificult to achieve.

i dont like the tone of this thread, parents who choose not to vaccinate are not stupid, they are usually quite well inormed and making decisions based on their children and their childrens health. a one size fits all vaccine does not take individual immune systems into account. a child who has been compromised immunolically by any number of diferent reasosn could have a reaction that is unexpected.
Dont demonise until you have walked in someones shoes or at least considered their pov.

**** their point of view. While I don't believe the state should force vaccinations, I do believe parents who don't vaccinate their kids are irresponsible morons. They usually are NOT quite well informed, given they usually trot out the Autism line, which is, and I cannot overstate this, it IS BULLSHIT

zenno wrote: »

It's not acceptable for you, or any-one else to dictate what another person should do. You, and others, with the same suggestion have no right to interfere or look for force mandatory vaccinations, it stands with the person/parent as to decide the choice. Any-one that takes this 'right to choose' away from a person is nothing but a fascist.

I agree they shouldn't be forced, but I will look down on them as sh1tty parents who are wholly irresponsible.

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Show me one because I have been looking a long time and haven't found one single study that says irrefutably that vaccines do not cause autism. I found plenty that said there was no evidence that they do but none saying that they definitely don't. Two completely different things.

Prove to me something doesn't exist..... it's impossible to do. Which is why the Scientific Method doesn't allow it. You can only prove something does exist. But, that said, there is no fcuking link.

zenno wrote: »

You would swear it was the Black Death we are dealing with here.

Every-one that has children wants what's best for them, but I think you should look more closely as to find out why such folk don't want to vaccinate their children.

Looking closely, i'd presume that it's because they are ill-informed nitwits

they aren't thinking of their specific childs health and whether the vaccine is tailor made for that kid, they are thinking "if this kid gets fcuked it'll be hard to take care of them". But the kid won't be fcuked, it does the opposite.

CJC999 wrote: »

I never knew about wakefields paper until I had children of my own but I was aware of people's beliefs that the MMR and autism may be linked as two friends of mine have children who are autistic and it began shortly after their MMR shots. It may be horse**** to you but certainly not to them. Both families have had more children but refused to give them their MMR vaccines because of what happened previously. Are they wrong? Do you know what it's like to live with a severely autistic child?
.

And if those kids gets a really fcuking horrible disease, because the parents are ill-informed twats who REALLY pays the price? The kid could dies or gets fcuked for life, because the parents are too lazy to do some real research and to listen to REAL doctors.

But i know someone it happened to is a cop-out for use by people who don't understand how the world works. anecdotal evidence is not worth the paper it's written on

iguana · 26-01-2014 12:52pm

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Interesting you mention education. Because for our children, that of course IS mandatory. So the state does already dictate to parents what is best for their children in some areas so the notion that making vaccination compulsory would be breaking new ground is bogus.

Wrong. The Irish Constitution actually specifically states that the parent is the child's primary educator and while every child is entitled to a school place the parent chooses whether or not to send them to school.

Incidence of measles, mumps and rubella all increase due to anti-vaccine campaign

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