Transparency for all

king_of_inismac · 23-01-2014 11:43PM

Emmie Steep Boy wrote: »

There can only be one definition of transparent and I gave it. As for a physical definition, that's a new one on me?

Relax!

Definition From Webster (words can have more than one meaning you know

):

Transparent: readily understood d : characterized by visibility or accessibility of information especially concerning business practices

king_of_inismac · 23-01-2014 11:46PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

Read 1984 and find out

I take your point (and read 1984 in my youth).

I guess my question (which I don't know the answer to) is when does hiding the truth (at a societal level) have a benefit?

KyussBishop · 23-01-2014 11:50PM

Interesting idea. Norway doesn't seem to have a large instance of property crime, from what I can tell (probably due to having a functional police service), so it seems to be a safe policy over there - here though, I would worry that it'd been a pretty useful list for people looking to commit burglaries, by targeting specific people/houses based on income/wealth.

dxhound2005 · 24-01-2014 12:05AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

Interesting idea. Norway doesn't seem to have a large instance of property crime, from what I can tell (probably due to having a functional police service), so it seems to be a safe policy over there - here though, I would worry that it'd been a pretty useful list for people looking to commit burglaries, by targeting specific people/houses based on income/wealth.

Doesn't seem from what you can tell and probably a functional police service (whatever that means), safe policiy over there. I think you're just making it up from the top of your head. There is no mention in any of the links about anything to do with property crime or the police service.

Setun · 24-01-2014 12:05AM

Interesting point made MangoSalsa but ultimately I think it would be of most benefit to marketing companies rather than a self-regulating system for the taxpayer. Take a look at the debate coming out this week after the UK government announced that the NHS would sell public medical data - who gets the data? University researchers trying to cure cancer? Or health insurance companies wanting to squeeze more profit out of patients?

I would certainly support transparency for any individual or organisation that is funded by public money - in fact, I thought that was the case already! There is a website for US-based charities that explains the admin costs/donations etc info - http://www.charitynavigator.org/ Would be fantastic to have a similar system in Ireland.

It's worth remembering that there have been other controversies over the last few years regarding Irish charities. Anybody remember the Irish Red Cross and Noel Wardick? Worth re-reading, I'm astounded that the whistleblower's identity was revealed by Google/UPC, and consequently fired from his position at the charity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Red_Cross#Controversies Plenty of chat in the Dail I'm sure, but was there any reform in the end?

KyussBishop · 24-01-2014 12:12AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Doesn't seem from what you can tell and probably a functional police service (whatever that means), safe policiy over there. I think you're just making it up from the top of your head. There is no mention in any of the links about anything to do with property crime or the police service.

? I had Googled this before posting, to read up on it, and it doesn't seem to be bad:
https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13644

I'm not trying to rebut the idea, I think greater transparency is a good idea, just (at this current moment in time, for Ireland), maybe it'd be usable by burglars; just a random potential drawback that I could think of, don't know how much of a real issue it would be.

dxhound2005 · 24-01-2014 12:16AM

Setun wrote: »

Interesting point made MangoSalsa but ultimately I think it would be of most benefit to marketing companies rather than a self-regulating system for the taxpayer. Take a look at the debate coming out this week after the UK government announced that the NHS would sell public medical data - who gets the data? University researchers trying to cure cancer? Or health insurance companies wanting to squeeze more profit out of patients?

I would certainly support transparency for any individual or organisation that is funded by public money - in fact, I thought that was the case already! There is a website for US-based charities that explains the admin costs/donations etc info - http://www.charitynavigator.org/ Would be fantastic to have a similar system in Ireland.

It's worth remembering that there have been other controversies over the last few years regarding Irish charities. Anybody remember the Irish Red Cross and Noel Wardick? Worth re-reading, I'm astounded that the whistleblower's identity was revealed by Google/UPC, and consequently fired from his position at the charity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Red_Cross#Controversies Plenty of chat in the Dail I'm sure, but was there any reform in the end?

There are a lot of individuals funded by public money, the Social Welfare budget alone is over €20 billion. And then you have the likes of farm payments from the EU going to people like Michael O'Leary. If there is going to be a transparent system then every one of those should be made available along with earnings details of workers.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/more-two-million-people-ireland-1936590

The Department of Social Protection’s annual report showed 2.3 million people collect some form of weekly benefit.

Joan Burton’s figures reveal 1.5 million individuals get financial help from the Government on top of 600,000 families.

Czarcasm · 24-01-2014 01:18AM

Like any procedures put in place to curb underhanded behaviour, people will just find more ingenious ways to get around these procedures and hope they don't get caught, or, when they do get caught - just brazen it out and then carry on.

Invasion of privacy is the biggest stumbling block to this idea. As much as people find corruption reprehensible, they're not prepared to compromise on their privacy in the hope of preventing it. There needs to be much stiffer penalties put in place when public servants are caught with their hand in the cookie jar, but for the average person on the average industrial wage, there's no advantage to be gained from them disclosing how much they earn, nor how much tax they pay on just their occupational income alone.

Rabelais · 24-01-2014 01:26AM

My Dad wouldn't rent a bedsit to mango salsa based upon the availability of such information.

Annasopra · 24-01-2014 10:02AM

Rabelais wrote: »

My Dad wouldn't rent a bedsit to mango salsa based upon the availability of such information.

Right ok. Thanks for the tip not to rent a crappy bedsit.

o1s1n · 24-01-2014 10:14AM

mango salsa wrote: »

why?

Imagine going to a job interview for a higher role in another company where the interviewer already knows your current salary as they can just look it up online.

You'd lose a hell of a lot of your leverage.

Awful awful idea.

Son Of A Vidic · 24-01-2014 10:22AM

Emmie Steep Boy wrote: »

Actually if something is transparent you can't see it. Light passes straight through it so you see the object beyond it. So calls for transparency are misguided.

That explains it, so we are actually a very transparent little nation.

martingriff · 24-01-2014 10:23AM

mango salsa wrote: »

The situation about charities has got me thinking a lot about the issue of transparency. There are always calls for wages of politicians, civil servants and people working for charities to publish their salary details. At the moment income inequality is ironically and bizarrely enough being debated in Davos at the World Economic Forum.

Anyway I think that we in Ireland should have a similar system to Norway. Make everyones income and tax details publicly available.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/07/in-norway-everyones-income-is-public-and-so-is-tax-paid/242386/

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2010/10/20/tax-lists-bared-for-public-review/

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2012/04/want-to-know-what-tax-transparency-looks-like-look-at-norway/

Individual people as Person A may not be know but civil service pay grades are very public and politicans. Yes expenses are not and should be

Annasopra · 24-01-2014 11:53AM

Bambi wrote: »

imagine it,

a nation of curtain twitchers salivating at the prospects of knowing their neighbours/friends/colleagues financial details while petrified at the idea of everyone knowing their details too, finance wise.

Do Norwegians act like that?

Tabnabs · 24-01-2014 11:58AM

o1s1n wrote: »

Imagine going to a job interview for a higher role in another company where the interviewer already knows your current salary as they can just look it up online.

You'd lose a hell of a lot of your leverage.

Awful awful idea.

And you can look at what the existing person in that role is receiving so you know what you're in for. Works both ways...

Annasopra · 24-01-2014 12:02PM

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Why do you think this?

For various reasons

1 I think it is good to have openness and transparency in society
2 I agree with the Norwegian logic behind this - that tax is your contribution to the society that enables you to get that income and part of your obligation is that others have the right to see how you meet your social obligations.
3 I don't actually see why there is any right to privacy on what taxation people pay

Tabnabs · 24-01-2014 12:03PM

mango salsa wrote: »

Do Norwegians act like that?

Oh sweet Jesus yes! They all nosey in on what their family, friends, neighbours and colleagues earn. The security is so open that I can put in details of people I know and find out what they earn. It's full disclosure and all the opportunities that affords.

It does ware off eventually, once you snoop initially, you're less likely to keep it up.

Seedy Arling · 24-01-2014 12:07PM

mango salsa wrote: »

For various reasons

1 I think it is good to have openness and transparency in society
2 I agree with the Norwegian logic behind this - that tax is your contribution to the society that enables you to get that income and part of your obligation is that others have the right to see how you meet your social obligations.
3 I don't actually see why there is any right to privacy on what taxation people pay

Norwegian logic is all well and good. Irish logic would be to have your house/business targetted by criminal elements to squeeze a few quid out of you. The only body that should be able to see that you meet your 'social obligation' is revenue. To suggest otherwise particularly in this country is ridiculous.

JuliusCaesar · 24-01-2014 01:07PM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Cool lets do that, you first

That's what everyone said about releasing details of how much houses ACTUALLY sold for. Lo and behold - property tax comes in and no more debate, no more doubts, it's just done.

If it's done for everyone, why not?

JuliusCaesar · 24-01-2014 01:10PM

Tabnabs wrote: »

And you can look at what the existing person in that role is receiving so you know what you're in for. Works both ways...

Already exists in the public service for example. You just need to know somebody's title (Assistant Principal, Teacher, Nurse, Sergeant etc) and you can look up the salary scale online.

Annasopra · 24-01-2014 02:56PM

Seedy Arling wrote: »

The only body that should be able to see that you meet your 'social obligation' is revenue. To suggest otherwise particularly in this country is ridiculous.

why? whats the justification?

Anita B Jaynow · 24-01-2014 03:34PM

I'll believe it when I see it.

Annasopra · 24-01-2014 07:42PM

Anita B Jaynow wrote: »

I'll believe it when I see it.

Believe what?

awec · 24-01-2014 08:14PM

mango salsa wrote: »

why? whats the justification?

Because it's none of your business what anyone else earns.

If it really concerns you how much someone is paid you can ask them and see what they say.

Transparency for all

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