Lerdrit, Muay Chao Cherk, Muay Boran

Stillweak wrote: »

Good riddance.
You set up the debate with your stupid search for a pointless hobby. But you didn't want to outline why you are looking to start traditional rubbish.
" I'm not interested in the ring version". That type of nonsense is looking for people to react. There was a suggested tone baiting people who are interested in the ring version.
The reason this forum is my style is better than yours is because people post outdated stupidity but can't back it up by posting a video that won't make us laugh.

This is why posts here happen every few days at best, and nothing relating to martial "art" gets discussed, its become an event guide because "discussion" is pointless when the responses are so predictable and disrespectful. Sometimes I wonder if some of the posters here are simply "bots" spamming to promote a handful of combat sports? (and I love, have participated in, and promote on an international level combat sports!!!)

The lad for all "I" knew could have been the top MT fighter in the country looking to expand his art into the traditional weapons and wrestling not found in the sport version? I know alot of Sanshou athletes who have done this.

Why is it pointless?
Even if it doesn't lend itself to "ring craft" and prepare one to beat the top MT fighters UNDER MT rules, how can anyone assess it against the average antagonist? I have to say I would be surprised if none of the traditional fighters in Thailand fight in MT contests to test out their stuff?There are so many local events it has to happen? Even so, should the OP not be a competitor, whats wrong with that? he didn't allude to one being superior, GAA doesn't teach you to fight in a ring, is that pointless?

Why should he "outline" and justify, hell maybe the word is "validate", to you why he wishes to train in the art?
Who made you God?
Does he need permission from some clandestine "boards.ie" MA governing council? WTF????

When I started this thread I was just interested in finding a club etc that dealt with the more traditional side of Muay Thai. I was'nt asking for opinions on whether modern Muay Thai is better than the older styles. Now its turned into a bitch match.I believe this is my fist post on boards and it will be my last. This forum is a breeding ground for "My style is better than yours" type posts.

Can't say I blame him!

Like, hands up, I'm the first guy to challenge a Tai Chi or Kung Fu school claiming practical combat ability when they don't focus on or train for it, and certainly I'd challenge any chi -force / make you an invincible jedi sh1t, but there have been plenty of threads down the years looking for "Tai Chi" for health etc., and I don't but in, sure personally I believe they are selling themselves short, but I don't need them to adopt my worldview so I can sleep at night!

Try some warm milk and honey!

Peetrik wrote: »

TBH I'd be more in of Stillweaks opinion on this one. He obviously didn't read rule 4 of the charter.

"4. If the thread wanders off topic, accept it. Conversations are organic, and will change. Obviously completely OT posts will be removed."

Closing your account because people discussed your topic seems like a silly response IMO.

The point a few of us are making is that it always wanders off (immediately) to "fully resistant le bla bla habitual...." and "do my combat sport" spam!
Training with resistance is nothing new, I only heard of it being a concept after years of training. TO me it was the only way I was shown, I never heard of or was exposed to touchy touchy point sparing crap etc. so it gets a little tired hearing lads freshly baptised into MMA coming from tiddlywinks getting all evangelical about it.
And I for one, would actually be interested in reading about older forms of Muay Thai, just purely out of interest, but that's not going to happen around here, instead the same lecture is regurgitated again and again like it's something new. It never was! its just marketing that made it so, like I said spam!

However, it was the pros and cons off Muay Boran that were being discussed in this instance. Someone specifically asked for a comparison between MB and MT.

but why? (it wasn't out of curiosity! it was a challenge!)

MT, elite level MT is like any other combat sport at elite level, it requires "specialisation", knowing the "rules" to win, it is not just "fighting" it is a "Game". Thats certainly not meant to be a put down btw!!!

That does not mean an elite MT or Sanda or whatever can't ktfo an aggressor in self defence twice as fast as a non-elite athlete, some deluded people may think that.

But it is true that one doesn't need to be an elite athlete to defend one's self. And if the aim is self defence, then rules of a sport become less important.

An example...

Last weekend I was coaching the Irish Sanshou Team. Now at part I was drilling a response to kick above the hips. Why? well such a kick is worth 2 points. A throw is worth 2 points. A punch 1 point, a kick above knee but below hips 1 point etc etc. So it stands to reason that a good way of building up points without the effort of clinch and takedown is to kick in various ways to the mid section or head. TO do this against seasoned opponents appropriate feints need to be worked on etc etc..

Now you dont score unless the kick visibly moves him back, so it needs power behind it. In otherwords, the skill would be VERY effective to a drunk aggressor on a Saturday night, and what's more the sanshou athlete has to be able to set it up and carry it off during combat, meaning his brain is 100 times more tuned for combat than the non-athlete.

BUT, and here it is, its not necessary for "fighting", there's also probably a different approach in MMA and MT depending on their rules? (on that I've regularly seen cross-overs from MMA and MT in Sanshou, the ones who had the cop-on to study the rules, take-downs etc. did well, the ones who are stuck at "fighting" level get defeated easily, often with puzzled expressions, they might have 4 thigh kicks - 4 points and their opponent 4 mid section kicks - 8 points, they bitch about refs etc then? when they are like Rugby player entering GAA and jumping on the ball thinking they got a try being declared "wide" and expecting to score.

If you don't do this in sport, you risk, as I did, losing a world Championship fight, ignoring what I felt were ineffectual thigh kicks from my opponent (which scored) with the aim of knocking him out. In retrospect - a dumb move! On a Saturday night the way to go, but then again, there's no way Average Joe is going to last 3 minutes ( a round) against me. Not boasting, you are the same I assume, its all hold back and take it easy when new lads enter the sparring ring for a reason!

So I ask why compare- "under a rule set" one is designed for- both arts MT and MB? It's meaningless. unless you asked the same lads to then spar with throws and then with weapons.

Like I'm sure I'm going to hear some bs comparing the Irish Sanshou lads who are amateur I posted with Casserly (Irelands top pro MT fighter at the moment?) It would be like comparing Salihov to the average 3 night a week Irish MT fighter - meaningless.

Live and let live, is all I'm saying, and I always feel I can only learn from exposure to other perspectives, I'll miss the opportunity to hear about old MT styles now!

Peetrik wrote: »

Isn't that what makes the discussion interesting?

Sharing opinions and comparing older training methods against newer ones and the advantages and disadvantages of each?

absolutely, I'd love to see that, BUT

You set up the debate with your stupid search for a pointless hobby. But you didn't want to outline why you are looking to start traditional rubbish.

This gentleman's approach is not conducive to "sharing" anything?

and there exists a fallacy that if it isn't on youtube it doesn't exist. There's not much Mogolian Wrestling on youtube, their culture isn't based around UFC and pay per view tv., though I have seen a few documentaries where they destroy Chinese Shuai Jiao, Judo and BJJ "average" martial artists. Lots of African martial arts too, no entrants into UFC, but plenty of deaths due to stick fighting local events according to one documentary I watched. I'd say the average Irish 2 evening a week MMA, MT, Sanda lad would wet himself against a 6ft6 African Tribal Warrior with a 10ft pole swinging at him. replace the pole with a machette and tears, piss and prayers to mammy will flow from Average Paddy!

So guess I think, benefit of the doubt and respect should be extended, you know that weird concept of innocent until proven guilty, and that its up to the accuser to prove guilt, not the accused to prove innocence?

This conversation hasn't really drifted into discussion of technique, tactics or strategy. Which might be more useful?

Like why the double uppercut? In my style of kung fu, double or triple strikes in forms reflect a varying combo, ie can start and finish with any of those limbs that set up responses in the opponent and recovery options for us. Is this the same? is it one uppercut followed by another, maybe like Tyson has done at times, that sure looked effective?

Why was the head taken out but the elbows left in in the combat sport?
Both tend to "cut" the opponent? The thinking behind it might be informative?

That's the type of questions I can learn from, and enjoy.