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Lerdrit, Muay Chao Cherk, Muay Boran
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08-01-2014 3:26pm#1
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Dave Joyce wrote: »I'm actually intrigued with some of the responses and I'd love to know how much training in Lerdrit, Muay Chao Cherk or Muay Boran (or indeed military training) any of the those who have responded actually have??
In fairness Dave, the onus is usually on the style to show its effectiveness not for the rest of the world to prove it doesn't.
If I'm wrong I've no problem with being corrected. What exactly do you disagree with? That it's just as effective as modern Muay Thai? That Dublin has world class Muay Boran coaches?So the oul headbutts were dumped because they didnt work
How about the mae sok? :pac:
Yeah I'll give you that, headbutts are effective, so are the hip throws that were removed to encourage more striking and less grappling and probably a couple of other things. But for the most part I'd stick with my opinion of flashy stuff being removed and the more effective stuff kept.
As for mae sok, I had to google what it was. I've never heard of it, let alone of someone in Ireland being attacked with one. I'm baffled how you think it practical to learn to defend yourself from such a specific weapon?0 -
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I've said twice that practicality was a factor too, attempting to assert any assumption of 'sole grounds' is a straw man argument.
nah what you said twice was the below, without qualification:they invested a lot of time into stripping away what worked from what didn'tall the stuff that has been disregarded by Muay Thai (two handed uppercuts etc) for being impractical
I think we've established that these statements are not correct, or do you disagree?
If you do disagree, you might want to expain why headbutts, throws and twatting people with lumps of wood the size of a table leg didn't make it into muay thai on the grounds that they don't work.
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http://youtu.be/PC5JA8IGiKY
2009, old, but we haven't put together promotional vids since, an ongoing project. That's my own student Karl Kidd knocking a lad out at the end.
finally after only 6 years got the international recognition, and a few lads now ready to step up to that level.
What level?
This:
http://youtu.be/7IB2wtWrLbk
Salihov is currently #2 in world (IWUF)
you might have heard of this guy too:
http://youtu.be/04EPH0jJzSU
given he has transferred over to MMA for the cash.
Here's sanshou and MT getting on just fine:
http://youtu.be/4FCDKabF7YQ
http://youtu.be/Tqei7VdAxNU
Notice the size of the crowd?
Some Sanda comps have 30,000 in the stadiums, and 750,000,000 (that's right 3/4 BILLION watching!!! there is a world outside of this anglo-centric bubble!!!) you qualify through IWUF comps, which Irish Athletes can now finally do, thanks to efforts by ICBA.
Experience breeds competency, and I expect a number of Irish athletes will soon be making names for themselves. We have 4 opens a year nationally - Open to all styles, lots of MMA lads already compete.
My own students Karl Kidd and Dec Gernon have in the past fought pro, Dec retired from Sanda in 2010, he was ranked 3rd in Europe PWKA. He lost a title shot on decision to a lad who went on to captain the Swiss pro team that beat the Chinese pro team.
Liu Hai Long above was captain of pro Chinese Team a few years before that.
I have no video of such, though I was supposed to be sent a copy?
There's plenty of sanshou lads now in western MMA. My own Tai Chi brother Sami Berik who fought on many pro sanshou cards with me and Vince Sessegnon another Practical Tai Chi lad, who went on to pro-boxing:
http://youtu.be/e69d_x9IFQE
http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/news/1193345.boxing_super_sessegnon_stuns_tops_swede/
Sh1t!, I could go on and on all day!!!
Enough proof?
China's government sponsored MMA event (with mostly Sanda fighters):
http://youtu.be/yB3imGN3qBo
note you can kick the head of a downed opponent - gets people up off their arses!!!:eek:0 -
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However, it was the pros and cons off Muay Boran that were being discussed in this instance. Someone specifically asked for a comparison between MB and MT.
but why? (it wasn't out of curiosity! it was a challenge!)
MT, elite level MT is like any other combat sport at elite level, it requires "specialisation", knowing the "rules" to win, it is not just "fighting" it is a "Game". Thats certainly not meant to be a put down btw!!!
That does not mean an elite MT or Sanda or whatever can't ktfo an aggressor in self defence twice as fast as a non-elite athlete, some deluded people may think that.
But it is true that one doesn't need to be an elite athlete to defend one's self. And if the aim is self defence, then rules of a sport become less important.
An example...
Last weekend I was coaching the Irish Sanshou Team. Now at part I was drilling a response to kick above the hips. Why? well such a kick is worth 2 points. A throw is worth 2 points. A punch 1 point, a kick above knee but below hips 1 point etc etc. So it stands to reason that a good way of building up points without the effort of clinch and takedown is to kick in various ways to the mid section or head. TO do this against seasoned opponents appropriate feints need to be worked on etc etc..
Now you dont score unless the kick visibly moves him back, so it needs power behind it. In otherwords, the skill would be VERY effective to a drunk aggressor on a Saturday night, and what's more the sanshou athlete has to be able to set it up and carry it off during combat, meaning his brain is 100 times more tuned for combat than the non-athlete.
BUT, and here it is, its not necessary for "fighting", there's also probably a different approach in MMA and MT depending on their rules? (on that I've regularly seen cross-overs from MMA and MT in Sanshou, the ones who had the cop-on to study the rules, take-downs etc. did well, the ones who are stuck at "fighting" level get defeated easily, often with puzzled expressions, they might have 4 thigh kicks - 4 points and their opponent 4 mid section kicks - 8 points, they bitch about refs etc then? when they are like Rugby player entering GAA and jumping on the ball thinking they got a try being declared "wide" and expecting to score.
If you don't do this in sport, you risk, as I did, losing a world Championship fight, ignoring what I felt were ineffectual thigh kicks from my opponent (which scored) with the aim of knocking him out. In retrospect - a dumb move! On a Saturday night the way to go, but then again, there's no way Average Joe is going to last 3 minutes ( a round) against me. Not boasting, you are the same I assume, its all hold back and take it easy when new lads enter the sparring ring for a reason!
So I ask why compare- "under a rule set" one is designed for- both arts MT and MB? It's meaningless. unless you asked the same lads to then spar with throws and then with weapons.
Like I'm sure I'm going to hear some bs comparing the Irish Sanshou lads who are amateur I posted with Casserly (Irelands top pro MT fighter at the moment?) It would be like comparing Salihov to the average 3 night a week Irish MT fighter - meaningless.
Live and let live, is all I'm saying, and I always feel I can only learn from exposure to other perspectives, I'll miss the opportunity to hear about old MT styles now!
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Niall Keane wrote: »Like why the double uppercut? In my style of kung fu, double or triple strikes in forms reflect a varying combo
My fault for not explaining it properly, it's a two handed upper cut, not two uppercuts in quick succession.
There is no rule stopping you throwing a two handed uppercut, or climbing up someones leg and then trying to elbow them on the top of the head or 720 tornado kicks etc, it's just not done in MT as it's flashy and impractical.Niall Keane wrote: »Why was the head taken out but the elbows left in in the combat sport?
Both tend to "cut" the opponent? The thinking behind it might be informative?
No idea. At a guess I'd say it was to do with injury rate. You can defend against elbows with a high guard and by getting in close in the clinch, headbutts are a different story.0 -
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Tim_Murphy wrote: »Faulty logic doesn't even begin to describe this.
Most nonsensical thing I've read on boards for a while, which is saying something.
I said: "This allows the elite to focus solely and full-time on their sport career, no different from professional soccer players."
that pros get better opportunity than amateurs to focus on their training? This is Nonsense? Or that money offers a career path for professional athletes? Nonsense?
I said: "Watch a soccer match these days and scores can be 0-0, contrast to 1920's, thats how "expert" today's "commercially supported" athletes are with their "guard" in their "game"! "
from...The 58-0 demolition dwarfs the 13-0 record win in the English professional game,
http://www.news.com.au/world/amateur-english-soccer-team-scores-58-goals-in-a-game/story-e6frfkyi-1226307786034
Hmmmm!!! Nonsense eh?
Contrast to a GAA match, the what some may call sloppiness of amateurs allows for more action and opportunity to score.
Simply put amateurs are not as polished nor as experienced (barring the exception that proves the rule) as elite pros! Again you feel this is nonsense? I knew many county footballers in GAA who put in a 40 plus hour week, their best and most "productive" 40 hours, they don't wake up to sports massages and physios etc., nor have 8 week training camps like pro soccer lads do. ( I acknowledge that recently grants and pensions are changing that landscape) You think it nonsense that this helps capitalise on the raw genetics of the individuals? You think if you took two GAA teams from Ballyhappiness and paid one €50k each a year to train and zero to the others this wouldn't make a difference??? Same training methods (though the lads having to work might not be able to avail 24/7 unlike some), same art - MONEY! How could it make a difference??? Nonsense again eh???
My point of course is that a working Joe doing 1.5hrs 3 nights a week in an MMA gym is not going to approach the level of a top UFC athlete, he cannot train to the intensity required, he doesn't have the time. Despite the spam, his training regime therefore bears no resemblance to an elite athlete - FACT!!! Especially when we consider the science of repetition regarding movement.
The only "false logic" is that pro MMA, MT or any other combat sport with the funding to properly nurture elite professional athletes represent "better methods" of training as opposed to "providing better opportunity to train for a very small number of elite athletes". Yet this is exactly the BS spouted.
Has money done nothing for MMA? Is the standard of UFC 1 equal to today's elite pros? Cause I've heard even the Gracies say otherwise!
Faulty Logic does not mean "doesn't subscribe to my world view"! If you think what I'm saying is nonsense, then I think you need to grow up, lose the innocence, and realise cynical = been around the block!0 -
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Tim_Murphy wrote: »Apologies, I haven't read all this thread but is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Ah, right you are Niall. :rolleyes: You implied that the reason that there were more scores in one sport than another was because one was professional and one was amateur. No mention of the fact that they are completely different types of games. If you can't see the obvious faulty logic in that then I don't know what to say to you. There is more scores per match in basketball than both those sports, the NBA must be full of amateurs masquerading as pros...
yep, the conversation has developed, but professional sport and professionals in it were mentioned and used to challenge the "validity" of a related martial art, related as much as soccer and GAA are, not too much at all, and that was my "logical" reason for picking those examples, I know a bit "chain of consciousness" and all...
so the initial point was it is a pointless comparison, apples and oranges, then I go on to say, just to add the coup de gras to the fallacy, even the oranges picked to challenge the apples ain't normal oranges, they are genetically modified superhero oranges, produced by billionaire multinationals, that cant be held to represent oranges anyway, certainly not the ones grown in back garden green houses! so the point being its totally stupid to compare genetically modified oranges with apples "logically", even if the the average mandarin out there wants to feel they are one of the superhero Oranges.
and if someone asks where the apple stand is, its really not cool to point them to the oranges, just because you think they taste better. and I can understand, if a shopper then gets ridiculed and asked to validate his choice of apples over oranges by some nutter in the shop, I can understand why he leaves the building! thats all really!Phew....0 -
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Ignoring the fact that scoring a point is a lot easier than a goal is pretty ridiculous.
Thank you, and this moot point really highlights whats wrong with this discussion and a lot of others here.
GAA and Soccer, apples and oranges right?
both team sports
similar enough number of players (not exactly doubles tennis)
similar inflated spherical object being used
similarish use of body save one has hands and shoulders
similarish ways of scoring goals, goals and points, both involve targeted kicking?
both called "football"
etc. etc....
Muay Thai and Muay Boran....
both rely on individual performance
similar use of body weapons, save one has throws, headbutts and weapons
both seek to "damage" opponent
both from same culture
etc. etc....
So I draw on the similarities, the affinities between two types of football, and its ridiculous, nonsense, "false logic" right? :rolleyes:
BUT!!!! this thread does likewise with two types of martial arts, and I read no similar "protestations"???? Why is that? Very Strange!!! :rolleyes:
"Logically" a great number of posters on here abandon reason when it comes to martial arts, or else like the proverbial toad, they simply do not understand anything outside of their own well, yet insist on projecting the shadow of their own belief systems.
This is exactly what drives a few of the posters here to use that "illegal" headbutt - in frustration, on our own internet devices.
perhaps I was wrong on the internet to bring up football as a parallel to martial arts, in a "poetic" way of sorts, highlighting the false logic of the whole debate, I should have known it would be used as a moot point to try to discredit the body of my argument (which has gone completely unchallenged). But I love art, many types, not just martial, and I'm reminded of the Architect Le Corbusier's ideas about affinity and synchronisation, I thought it apt to parallel the debate about MT and MB with Soccer and GAA, I assumed one might see the similarity? Perhaps I've just been trained to think that way, I don't require step by step lego instructions to construct a building. Oh, Oh, now look what I've done, brought up another chain of thought about art, more opportunity for more moot points! damn! well I wont have the time to deal with them, if someone wants to discuss the body of the argument, it would be my pleasure, but I cant be getting involved in daytime TV court dramas."de minimis non curat lex" after all
I think I have made my point, seeking to validate one art through the medium of another is fallacious, using the professional elite of a sport to represent the sport as a whole is disingenuous, and disregarding such major influences as financing on producing elite athletes is plain naive!0 -
Niall Keane wrote: »yep, the conversation has developed, but professional sport and professionals in it were mentioned and used to challenge the "validity" of a related martial art, related as much as soccer and GAA are, not too much at all, and that was my "logical" reason for picking those examples, I know a bit "chain of consciousness" and all...
so the initial point was it is a pointless comparison, apples and oranges, then I go on to say, just to add the coup de gras to the fallacy, even the oranges picked to challenge the apples ain't normal oranges, they are genetically modified superhero oranges, produced by billionaire multinationals, that cant be held to represent oranges anyway, certainly not the ones grown in back garden green houses! so the point being its totally stupid to compare genetically modified oranges with apples "logically", even if the the average mandarin out there wants to feel they are one of the superhero Oranges.
and if someone asks where the apple stand is, its really not cool to point them to the oranges, just because you think they taste better. and I can understand, if a shopper then gets ridiculed and asked to validate his choice of apples over oranges by some nutter in the shop, I can understand why he leaves the building! thats all really!Phew....
That's some post! 0 -
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As I can't reply properly on a mobile or tablet its takes a bit of time for me to get online with a PC/laptop.In what way would you disagree with the responses Dave?
I have no problem whatsoever with people's opinions/responses BUT when they're incorrect or worse again when the responses are offered as supposedly expert advice by people who have not even trained in the system then YES absolutely I would disagree with the responses.
The other thing that intrigues me is that I thought there was also an MMA page where people can tell each other how its the saviour of ALL martial arts and how its so cool to be an MMA fighter, fan etc Some things on Boards NEVER change 0 -
I asked the original question "how are they different", the responses to which ruffled a few feathers. I'm still not sure how they are different. I'm just highlighting this as I'm genuinely curious.Dave Joyce wrote: »I have no problem whatsoever with people's opinions/responses BUT when they're incorrect or worse again when the responses are offered as supposedly expert advice by people who have not even trained in the system then YES absolutely I would disagree with the responses.
The above isn't really answering the question. The previous poster asked in what way would you disagree. You've just replied that you would disagree 0 -
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