Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

Zubeneschamali · 17-01-2014 11:38AM

CramCycle wrote: »

I care that incorrectly self identifying on the census means that certain policies or actions of the government may be influenced under the assumption that this is what the majority of the country believe/support whether they do or not.

I think that the country should be secular with a proper seperation of Church and State even if 99% of the population were real live practicing catholics.

I Heart Internet · 17-01-2014 11:38AM

CramCycle wrote: »

I did not think you had to be a Christian, I thought anyone could do it.

You could be right. But I thought it was a case of a baptised christian baptising another.

CramCycle wrote: »

What it means is they are not X, they could turn into an X but at the moment in time, they are not. They can also call themselves X, no issues there, it maybe wrong and misleading but they can still do it, I won't force them to stop. I might point out the issues calling yourself X when in fact you are an L may create.

OK. But you could say the exact same thing about e.g. a gay man who kisses a girl at a party. "YOU ARE NOT GAY!!! You're confusing the numbers by calling yourself gay!!!" That would be rude.

CramCycle wrote: »

Your missing the point, I don't care what anyone self identifies as, I care that incorrectly self identifying on the census means that certain policies or actions of the government may be influenced under the assumption that this is what the majority of the country believe/support whether they do or not.

There's that word again. Who are we to say they've incorrectly identified themselves? "Oh, it's just a phase you're going through."

CramCycle · 17-01-2014 11:39AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

People who identify themselves as Catholics believe a wide range of things. This is an undeniable fact.

Your opinion that they are not "really" Catholics, or are "faking it" is not a fact.

NOt believing in God (presumably he was talking of the Christian one) is a fairly clear indicator that they are not Catholic. You can still call yourself one, I won't stop you, but your still not a Catholic.

CramCycle · 17-01-2014 11:42AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think that the country should be secular with a proper seperation of Church and State even if 99% of the population were real live practicing catholics.

Agreed

eyescreamcone · 17-01-2014 11:45AM

But of course the thread title is:

Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

A Christian being someone who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazarath.

In my opinion very few people in Ireland, in spite of how they label themselves, live their lives based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

So an answer to the question might be - the exact percentage is very difficult to determine, but would be a small minority of the total population.

CramCycle · 17-01-2014 11:49AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

OK. But you could say the exact same thing about e.g. a gay man who kisses a girl at a party. "YOU ARE NOT GAY!!! You're confusing the numbers by calling yourself gay!!!" That would be rude.

Wouldn't bother me as I don't think such actions in any way influence the community/nation at large. people can kiss whoever is OK with them kissing them. To refute that argument, I have kissed alot of men when I was younger, does not mean I am Gay (doesn't mean I am not but my wife prefers that I self identify as straight :pac:)

There's that word again. Who are we to say they've incorrectly identified themselves? "Oh, it's just a phase you're going through."

but they have, I will give a clearer example than your gay man kissing women example.

I am an astronaut. I am identifying myself as an astronaut. I have no training, no ambitions to go to space and have never previously boarded a space shuttle or rocket. This self identification is incorrect. I can still call myself this, no one can force me to stop but it is still incorrect. It may in the future become correct but that possibility does not mean it is correct right now. In fact, on the next census I will self identify as an Astronaut.

I Heart Internet · 17-01-2014 11:49AM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

In my opinion very few people in Ireland, in spite of how they label themselves, live their lives based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

We can but do our best.

I Heart Internet · 17-01-2014 11:56AM

CramCycle,

Assessing the formal qualifications and necessary skills to function as an astronaut is very different from "assessing" a person's religious belief or sexuality.

Another example where your black-and-white methodology falls down is around race/ethnicity. If a person is of mixed race/ethnicity - say a white south african father with dutch and english parents and a french mother with Somali and Italian parents - says that their ethniticy is "White European", will you pick holes in that for them too??

Zubeneschamali · 17-01-2014 11:57AM

CramCycle wrote: »

In fact, on the next census I will self identify as an Astronaut.

But identifying as a Catholic is a different thing. The catholic church is that thing composed of all its members. It's more like being a Man U supporter than an astronaut.

I can hate David Moyes and every current Man U player and still call myself a Man U supporter. And you don't get to tell me I'm wrong.

eyescreamcone · 17-01-2014 12:00PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But identifying as a Catholic is a different thing. The catholic church is that thing composed of all its members. It's more like being a Man U supporter than an astronaut.

I can hate David Moyes and every current Man U player and still call myself a Man U supporter. And you don't get to tell me I'm wrong.

Unless he self identifies as a critic?

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2014 12:00PM

alaimacerc wrote: »

Just to be clear, that's not the Catechism, which is the proverbial three-volume doorstopper novel, but the Credo. (Specifically the Apostle's Creed, I think, which is slightly more "lightweight" than the Nicene one, in a couple of areas.) And again, almost every Christian denomination subscribes to this. (In fact, even moreso, as I think the AC flies with some Unitarians, Modalists and Restoration Godhead non-trin types, for whom the NC is already a dealbreaker.)

Yeah - I used that as in my very brief experience of our State funded education system (aged 4-6) that was one of the two things I learned (I could already read) -we had to recite it over and over and over again and then we would make a paper boat and go on break. In the afternoon there was knitting but I flunked that.

My education in a Catholic ethos school consisted of making paper boats and 'whomadedeworldgogmadedeworldwhereisgodgodiseverywhere' . I can still make paper boats but I had to google the Credo.

swampgas · 17-01-2014 12:02PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Nice for who? You? Why should people do anything if they don't want to?

So people should be happy to appear to support the homophobic stance of the church just because they can't be bothered to speak up and disagree?

Just want to be sure I understand you here.

Delirium · 17-01-2014 12:03PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

People who identify themselves as Catholics believe a wide range of things. This is an undeniable fact.

Your opinion that they are not "really" Catholics, or are "faking it" is not a fact.

A priest delivering a sermon about how God sacrificed his only son for the sins of mankind while not believing said God exists isn't "faking it"?

eyescreamcone · 17-01-2014 12:04PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yeah - I used that as in my very brief experience of our State funded education system (aged 4-6) that was one of the two things I learned (I could already read) -we had to recite it over and over and over again and then we would make a paper boat and go on break. In the afternoon there was knitting but I flunked that.

My education in a Catholic ethos school consisted of making paper boats and 'whomadedeworldgogmadedeworldwhereisgodgodiseverywhere' . I can still make paper boats but I had to google the Credo.

In my day the first question in the Cathecism was:

Who is God?
God is our father in Heavan, the most wonderful person ever. (?)

The second question?
I forget!

Brian Shanahan · 17-01-2014 12:11PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Brother owns one with a lovely view in Kinsale .

Up on the head about two miles outside of town?

If so it's a windy place to visit.

I Heart Internet · 17-01-2014 12:13PM

swampgas wrote: »

So people should be happy to appear to support the homophobic stance of the church just because they can't be bothered to speak up and disagree?

Just want to be sure I understand you here.

People are free to say and do (or not) pretty much anything they like (or not) on any subject they fancy.

Your desire to judge them as catholic or not, morally right or not, homophobe or not, based on their silence on any topic that happens to interest or animate you is your problem, not their's.

Zubeneschamali · 17-01-2014 12:13PM

SW wrote: »

A priest delivering a sermon about how God sacrificed his only son for the sins of mankind while not believing said God exists isn't "faking it"?

You talk to some of these more "sophisticated" catholics, and it isn't clear that they believe in anything supernatural at all; they regard the whole business as metophorical with deep connections to meaning and inner experience.

No magic or actually rising from the dead or anything recognizable as a god to an outsider.

Are they still "real" catholics? Not my call - they certainly say they are.

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2014 12:17PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Up on the head about two miles outside of town?

If so it's a windy place to visit.

Yup. When he bought it they asked if he wanted a view of the sea or the golf course. He asked for a view of the sky.

AerynSun · 17-01-2014 12:21PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My education in a Catholic ethos school consisted of making paper boats and 'whomadedeworldgogmadedeworldwhereisgodgodiseverywhere' . I can still make paper boats but I had to google the Credo.

Aaah ya terrible heathen critter you - that 'whomadedeworld' stuff isn't the Credo, it's the Penny Catechism. :P

I know, I know... had to find *something* I could chirp... wasn't so great at knitting myself, so didn't have any wise 'God made a slip knot and then he casted on 10 purl stitches' wisecracks... paper boats though... that's more fun as an activity. Although I'm surprised they let you do that... parts of that boat folding resembles a female anatomy lesson?

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2014 12:25PM

AerynSun wrote: »

Aaah ya terrible heathen critter you - that 'whomadedeworld' stuff isn't the Credo, it's the Penny Catechism. :P

I know, I know... had to find *something* I could chirp... wasn't so great at knitting myself, so didn't have any wise 'God made a slip knot and then he casted on 10 purl stitches' wisecracks... paper boats though... that's more fun as an activity. Although I'm surprised they let you do that... parts of that boat folding resembles a female anatomy lesson?

Well that explains a lot.

Brian Shanahan · 17-01-2014 12:42PM

catallus wrote: »

The whole problem stems from the artificial separation of the Church and the State.

Seriously, what's your problem with your freedom to practise your religion (or not practise any) without any interference from anybody else?

The way you go on about how "evil" and "unnatural" separation of church and State is, you'd think you want to be put on a rack and tortured for your faith.

Or is it (the far more likely) case that you want to have everybody who doesn't follow your faith to be persecuted?

smacl · 17-01-2014 12:45PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

People who identify themselves as Catholics believe a wide range of things. This is an undeniable fact.

Interestingly people who identify as being catholic are not necessarily identifying as being Catholics. According to Merriam Webster the uncapitalised adjective catholic has a number of meanings, including broad in sympathies, tastes, or interests whereas a Catholic (proper noun) is a member of the Catholic church.

So as of now, I choose to self identify as a catholic atheist

I wonder how the text of the census reads?

Zubeneschamali · 17-01-2014 12:46PM

If interested in the whole "real catholic" thing, take a look at this:

German theologians critique church teachings, propose new sexual understanding

Note that the theologians surveyed are not saying most catholics disagree with the hierarchy, therefore most catholics are wrong/sinners/not real catholics. They are saying most Catholics do not believe what the hierarchy says they believe, so the hierarchy is wrong.

CramCycle · 17-01-2014 01:21PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I can hate David Moyes and every current Man U player and still call myself a Man U supporter. And you don't get to tell me I'm wrong.

On that description you could easily qualify as a Man Utd supporter.

swampgas · 17-01-2014 01:28PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People are free to say and do (or not) pretty much anything they like (or not) on any subject they fancy.

Your desire to judge them as catholic or not, morally right or not, homophobe or not, based on their silence on any topic that happens to interest or animate you is your problem, not their's.

Hey, I'm only going on the best evidence I have. If someone tells me they are a Catholic, but doesn't tell me that they don't follow the churches teachings, how I am supposed to know? I'll take their self-identification at face value and assume that they mean they are a Catholic as defined by the RCC. If that means I get the wrong impression, that's their problem, they are the ones mis-identifying themselves.

.

weisses · 17-01-2014 01:36PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Up on the head about two miles outside of town?

If so it's a windy place to visit.

Not a place to walk around with an urn full with ash

Brian Shanahan · 17-01-2014 01:50PM

weisses wrote: »

Not a place to walk around with an urn full with ash

True that, not that I make a habit of walking around with urns. Go up there regularly as my aunt is buried in the nun's plot.

swampgas · 17-01-2014 01:52PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If interested in the whole "real catholic" thing, take a look at this:

German theologians critique church teachings, propose new sexual understanding

Note that the theologians surveyed are not saying most catholics disagree with the hierarchy, therefore most catholics are wrong/sinners/not real catholics. They are saying most Catholics do not believe what the hierarchy says they believe, so the hierarchy is wrong.

If Catholics think the hierarchy is wrong, why don't they do something about it? If they really think the Pope is misrepresenting what Catholicism is all about, they might try letting the world know.

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2014 01:57PM

I may have missed it but has anyone explained how there can be a 'Catholic Ethos' which is very important to 'Catholic' parents who have a right to have their children educated in this ethos when there is, apparently, no actual unifying Catholic doctrine or criteria to be adhered to in order to be a Catholic as it is, seemingly, more of a 'what ever you are believing yourself like' religion.

I Heart Internet · 17-01-2014 02:35PM

swampgas wrote: »

I'll take their self-identification at face value and assume that they mean they are a Catholic as defined by the RCC. If that means I get the wrong impression, that's their problem, they are the ones mis-identifying themselves.

It's only their problem if they care about what you think of them, correct or incorrect.

Most people, thankfully, do not open conversations with..."my stance on gay marriage is as follows..." I prefer to think the best of everyone and see where that gets me.

Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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