Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

Turtwig · 16-01-2014 03:11PM

I Internet,

How would you describe the following the person? John almost never attends weekly mass. He does not accept that Roman Catholic Church traditions hold the same value as scripture. He does not accept the reasoning of the Magisterium of the Church. Nor, does he follow their intended practices for believers. He doesn't believe in transubstantiation. In almost every facet of core Roman Catholic theology he deviates from Church teachings. However, baptism, the story of Jesus and passages of scripture are very important to him.

Now, I would describe John as a Protestant. John, of course, could possibly self identify himself as Catholic. It's just well that's pretty bizarre to say the least. The best descriptive term for his beliefs is Protestant of some description. The way to identify the validity of a label is whether when that label is applied your expectation for the properties of that label matches the description of the owner of the label. In other words, if someone tells you're they're a Man City supporter you form a certain set of expectations as to what that means. If that someone then spends every day going around in a Man United Jersey supporting United during the Manchester derby then you're going to be at the very least puzzled.When someone tells you they're Catholic you expect certain things. This is only fair because Catholicism has an intrinsic meaning but when someone who's quite clearly got more in common with the world's Reformed Catholic Church tells you're their Catholic at the very least they're blurring the lines on what Catholicism is. Which is fine if you're willing to accept that Muslims or Atheists can be Catholic. But I daresay that is disingenuous to Catholics who identify with the Authority of the Roman Catholic Church i.e what one expects when they hear the term Catholic. I'm never going to assume the person who tells me they're Catholic behaves like a lapsed Catholic. Such an assumption is unwise and arrogant, to say the least.

vibe666 · 16-01-2014 03:12PM

grand so, it doesn't matter what people actually believe or do as long as they tick the right boxes on a form.

when it comes time to send my children to school and i pick the best school closest to were we live that just happens to have a catholic 'ethos', i'll just tick catholic in the box on the enrollment form to make sure they are at the top of the list and when the school asks for a baptismal cert i'll tell them that my children weren't baptised, but it doesn't matter because they can't tell us what we believe and in our hearts we believe we're catholics and that should be enough because they have no right to tell anyone what they are or aren't. :rolleyes:

Cabaal · 16-01-2014 03:13PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

What you're trying to say perhaps, is that MOST of them are hypocrites. Robindch and you are wrong to suggest they are all hypocrites becasue you don't know the beliefs and private lives of 1.2 billion people. Hence, it was a sweeping generalisation.

So you are saying that every single catholic follows the word of the bible? (the bible being the error free word of god)

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 03:17PM

Jernal wrote: »

I Internet,

How would you describe the following the person? John almost never attends weekly mass. He does accept not that Roman Catholic Church traditions hold the same value as scripture. He does not accept the reasoning of the Magisterium of the Church. Nor, does he follow their intended practices for believers. He doesn't believe in transubstantiation. In almost every facet of core Roman Catholic theology he deviates from Church teachings. However, baptism, the story of Jesus and passages of scripture are very important to him.

Now, I would describe John as a Protestant. John, of course, could possibly self identify himself as Catholic. It's just well that's pretty bizarre to say the least. The best descriptive term for his beliefs is Protestant of some description. The way to identify the validity of a label is whether when that label is applied your expectation for the properties of that label matches the description of the owner of the label. In other words, if someone tells you're they're a Man City supporter you form a certain set of expectations as to what that means. If that someone then spends every day going around in a Man United Jersey supporting United during the Manchester derby then you're going to be at the very least puzzled.When someone tells you they're Catholic you expect certain things. This is only fair because Catholicism has an intrinsic meaning but when someone who's quite clearly got more in common with the world's Reformed Catholic Church tells you're their Catholic at the very least they're blurring the lines on what Catholicism is. Which is fine if you're willing to accept that Muslims or Atheists can be Catholic.

If pushed, I'd describe him as a Catholic who should learn more about his faith, as we all should.

I'd prefer to hear what John descibes himself as though, and why.

Again, bringing it back to the census, John is free to self identify himself as he pleases. He's free to scribble in "Jedi Knight" if he wants.

alaimacerc · 16-01-2014 03:17PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

What you're trying to say perhaps, is that MOST of them are hypocrites. Robindch and you are wrong to suggest they are all hypocrites becasue you don't know the beliefs and private lives of 1.2 billion people. Hence, it was a sweeping generalisation.

I think he said what he wanted to say with considerably more precision than your "helpful" suggestion:

"People that don't strictly follow the RCC rules and doctrines are hypocrites"

"The Vatican are hypocrites"

The 1.2 billion is your own construction. Not a very rigorous line of argument (to put it mildly) to vastly expand the scope of what someone said, then call it a "sweeping generalisation".

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 03:18PM

Cabaal wrote: »

So you are saying that every single catholic follows the word of the bible? (the bible being the error free word of god)

Nothing of the sort. Where did you pick that nugget of information up from what I said?

robindch · 16-01-2014 03:20PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You are. You're intepreting the cartoonists point of view.

You're aware, aren't you, that I created that cartoon?

Took about five minutes in Visio and I thought that simple pictures might work where words had failed.

Looks like I was wrong.

Turtwig · 16-01-2014 03:21PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

If pushed, I'd describe him as a Catholic who should learn more about his faith, as we all should.

I'd prefer to hear what John descibes himself as though, and why.

Again, bringing it back to the census, John is free to self identify himself as he pleases. He's free to scribble in "Jedi Knight" if he wants.

He's free to self identify as whatever the heck he likes. That's not the issue here the issue here is whether he can self identify incorrectly. I'm very pedantic about stuff. I won't call ice an liquid until it becomes a liquid. So I couldn't toss the label of 'Catholic' on him like you did. That's really not playing fair. His properties are more in line with Protestantism and I didn't tell you what he chose to self identify as. That you'd chuck the label of 'Catholic' on him is rather odd. At what point, in your eyes, is someone not definitely a Catholic? Or are we just going to say that anyone is Catholic. Because, that, well, from the point of view planning society or just identifying with and empathising with demographics makes everything really messed up!

Cabaal · 16-01-2014 03:22PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Nothing of the sort. Where did you pick that nugget of information up from what I said?

Ok so how are you coming to the assumption that they are not all hypocrites?

We've already confirmed the Vatican are hypocrites, thats known by everyone at this stage....except for those that want to deny abuses and the Vatican's role in covering up abuses.

For somebody outside of the Vatican then they must lead their life by something, the bible would be the source for such teachings. This is the word of god according to the catholic faith.

If you follow the bible then without a doubt you are a hypocrite, as although you read the word of god you sure as hell don't follow the word of god.

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 03:22PM

alaimacerc wrote: »

I think he said what he wanted to say with considerably more precision than your "helpful" suggestion:

"People that don't strictly follow the RCC rules and doctrines are hypocrites"

"The Vatican are hypocrites"

The 1.2 billion is your own construction. Not a very rigorous line of argument (to put it mildly) to vastly expand the scope of what someone said, then call it a "sweeping generalisation".

Robindch said:

robindch wrote: »

I'm not interpreting anything. I'm pointing out that the RCC and their "believers" are hypocrites.

I disagreed and Cabaal said:

Cabaal wrote: »

But they are hypocrites,

Generalising...

alaimacerc · 16-01-2014 03:24PM

smacl wrote: »

So what exactly is a Catholic ethos if following the teachings of the RCC is seemingly optional and down to the individual? From your previous posts Catholicism seems to be more a matter of identity than religious persuasion.

Exactly. From the very start of this thread, the nasty aul' secularists have been saying "the Catholic 'returns' in the census are in large part matters of variously ethnic, sectarian and national identity, and don't speak strongly to questions of religious practice and belief." The religious spoofers were naturally very offended, and demanded data. They got data. They didn't much like it. Now they're essentially saying exactly the same thing, just with the application of lots and lots of soft soap to avoid it sounding too much like they're saying exactly the same thing.

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 03:25PM

robindch wrote: »

You're aware, aren't you, that I created that cartoon?

Took about five minutes in Visio and I thought that simple pictures might work where words had failed.

Looks like I was wrong.

No...perhaps you should have mentioned that. Haha:)

Continue to suggest that I'm somehow mentally deficient all you like robindch. It's far easier than admiting someone might have a point.

alaimacerc · 16-01-2014 03:27PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Broadly, yes. But the question is, who has the right to tell people what religion they are?

The world must construe according to its wits, to quote (the heavily fictionalised version of, admittedly) a well-known Catholic apologist and legal pedant.

alaimacerc · 16-01-2014 03:34PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Not your fault smacl, but this discussion is just going around in circles.

No, not smacl's fault; largely yours, frankly.

There was a discussion yesterday on the "ownership" of schools. People want to pretend that catholic communities don't own catholic ethos schools (which are publicly funded).

No, they don't. Who's said this? Rather, "people want to pretend" that people want to pretend this.

The farcical position here is that held by people who'd like to maintain that "separation of church and state" and "religious" and "property" rights somehow add up to the necessity of maintaining a huge pipe of public funding of religiously oriented bodies, just so long as there's a tight one-way valve to prevent any backwash or clawback.

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 03:59PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Ok so how are you coming to the assumption that they are not all hypocrites?

We've already confirmed the Vatican are hypocrites, thats known by everyone at this stage....except for those that want to deny abuses and the Vatican's role in covering up abuses.

For somebody outside of the Vatican then they must lead their life by something, the bible would be the source for such teachings. This is the word of god according to the catholic faith.

If you follow the bible then without a doubt you are a hypocrite, as although you read the word of god you sure as hell don't follow the word of god.

Wow. Them's some leaps Cabaal. Them's some leaps.

If you want to use the above assumptions to sugges that I said "that every single catholic follows the word of the bible," then I really don't have the spirit to argue with you.

Cabaal · 16-01-2014 04:02PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Wow. Them's some leaps Cabaal. Them's some leaps.

If you want to use the above assumptions to sugges that I said "that every single catholic follows the word of the bible," then I really don't have the spirit to argue with you.

Ohhh so there's another magic book?, great!

So what do Catholics follow if its not the bible?

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 04:04PM

alaimacerc wrote: »

No, not smacl's fault; largely yours, frankly..

If only we all agreed on 100% of the facts. Then maybe the thread would have ended sooner.

We still need to answer the OP's question....is there any way to find out the exact number of christians in Ireland. If only there was some kind of national counting exercise that asked people to tell us what religion they were...that might shed some light on it.....oh.

alaimacerc wrote: »

No, they don't. Who's said this? Rather, "people want to pretend" that people want to pretend this.

I'd guess that's I've corectted people on the State Schools/Private Schools thing on this thread at least 3/4 times. Earlier today someone again suggested that the State was the patron of religious ethos schools when this is clearly not correct.

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 04:06PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Ohhh so there's another magic book?, great!

So what do Catholics follow if its not the bible?

You'd have to ask them.

You suggested that I claimed that all catholics follow the bible to the letter. I said no such thing and you know I didn't.

No other magic book.

Please just accept that people are free to make up their own minds on their own religious belief and adherence and how they describe it to the world.

catallus · 16-01-2014 04:09PM

Isn't it a fact that if a person is baptised then they are catholic?

Cabaal · 16-01-2014 04:12PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No other magic book.

so you agree that the bible is a magic book?
well thats worrying....

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 04:13PM

catallus wrote: »

Isn't it a fact that if a person is baptised then they are catholic?

Or if they answered "YES" when asked "are you a catholic?"

But apparently that's not held to be the case in these parts.....there's a test I think.

Bannasidhe · 16-01-2014 04:13PM

catallus wrote: »

Isn't it a fact that if a person is baptised then they are catholic?

No.

I was baptised.

I am not a Catholic.

I have a letter signed by the Bishop of Cork confirming that I am not a Catholic.

robindch · 16-01-2014 04:19PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Continue to suggest that I'm somehow mentally deficient all you like robindch. It's far easier than admiting someone might have a point.

No, I'm not suggesting that you're mentally deficient. I am telling you that you do not understand what people are posting here, either in the form of words or pictures. Your notion that I'm "suggesting" that you're "mentally deficient" to score some kind of facile debating points defies belief.

Anyhow, I give up.

Catholism is like, uh, things or something and so what if people agree or disagree? That's the point, isn't it? Free world and all that. Uh, spiritual but not religious.

catallus · 16-01-2014 04:22PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have a letter signed by the Bishop of Cork confirming that I am not a Catholic.

What does it say?

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 04:28PM

robindch wrote: »

Catholism is like, uh, things or something and so what if people agree or disagree? That's the point, isn't it? Free world and all that. Uh, spiritual but not religious.

I think it matters a great deal what people believe and that the RCC should teach the truths it holds dear (and that I find compelling) to the ends of the earth.

I don't believe, however, that we should tell other people what religion they are.

Bannasidhe · 16-01-2014 04:33PM

catallus wrote: »

What does it say?

Off the top of my head:

That I am no longer a Catholic, the baptismal register has been amended to show this (It has - I checked) and I am barred from participating in the rituals of the RCC

Since the letter in question is filed with my will (in case anyone gets notions about my funeral) I can't remember what it says word for word but that is the gist of it.

Bannasidhe · 16-01-2014 04:35PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't believe, however, that we should tell other people what religion they are.

Then we shouldn't have State funded schools that do exactly that now should we.

catallus · 16-01-2014 04:35PM

Fair enough. Did you ask for it personally or did you do something to earn it?

I Heart Internet · 16-01-2014 04:38PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Then we shouldn't have State funded schools that do exactly that now should we.

We should if parents want them. Yes.

Bannasidhe · 16-01-2014 04:39PM

catallus wrote: »

Fair enough. Did you ask for it personally or did you do something to earn it?

I asked.

Before they changed the rules obviously.

Exactly what percentage of the population is "christian"?

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