Mayo GAA Discussion Thread

ColeTrain · 12-01-2014 11:26PM

harpsman wrote: »

Anyone listenin to rte there? Did (another) post mortem on mayo. Enda mcnulty tommy carr and banty. Mcnulty amid the pschobabble said one thing that ive long argued that mayo need to confront the reasons for their losses head on. Carr more or less said its a mental thing which id also agree with. Personally ive found a general denial among mayo players and supporters about the choking in aifs. Imho theyd be bettet to admit theres a problem and set about trying to address the promlem rather than the usual "ah shur we woulda won if it wasnt for the goals" kind of guff. My 2 cents

Horan and the players can only take responsibility for the last two defeats though. Anything that happened previous is nothing to do with them. That means you're only trying to anyalise two defeats. Out of them two defeats would it be fair to say we were beaten by the better team in one of those matches? I think so.

It's too easy to trot out the "choking" word, its far more complex than that.

harpsman · 12-01-2014 11:59PM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Horan and the players can only take responsibility for the last two defeats though. Anything that happened previous is nothing to do with them. That means you're only trying to anyalise two defeats. Out of them two defeats would it be fair to say we were beaten by the better team in one of those matches? I think so.

It's too easy to trot out the "choking" word, its far more complex than that.

On your first point its my opinion that the cumulative effect of all the previous defeats is putting more pressure on the team in each successive final. I know they always say that it doesnt but based on what I see I dont believe them. anyway whether its 2 finals or 7 theres mental baggage there which has to be dealt with.

Second point-do Mayo people believe Donegal a better team than Mayo?
Id say Dublin are a better team but 2 minutes into the 2nd half of the final despite the teams being level it was obvious Mayo were gone.
So as hard as it is to admit for Mayo people they have choked now in 5 finals in a row.

ColeTrain · 13-01-2014 12:15AM

harpsman wrote: »

On your first point its my opinion that the cumulative effect of all the previous defeats is putting more pressure on the team in each successive final. I know they always say that it doesnt but based on what I see I dont believe them. anyway whether its 2 finals or 7 theres mental baggage there which has to be dealt with.

Second point-do Mayo people believe Donegal a better team than Mayo?
Id say Dublin are a better team but 2 minutes into the 2nd half of the final despite the teams being level it was obvious Mayo were gone.
So as hard as it is to admit for Mayo people they have choked now in 5 finals in a row.

How did Mayo choke against Donegal? A team with no character would have surrendered after losing two early goals, at least Mayo fought back and gave it a go. Same with the Dublin game, - there was still only a point in it at the end.
My point is the two games were lost for a lot of reasons. Management decisions, poor shooting, midfield being bypassed, losing goals at the wrong time, relying too much on frees etc
Of course you can just say we choked but that doesn't tell the whole story. The Mayo County board could spend millions bringing in the best sports psychologists in the world but that still wouldn't guarantee anything. Sometimes it goes for you on the day and sometimes it doesn't, it just hasn't happened for this team yet.

Lemlin · 13-01-2014 12:22AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

U-21s well beaten by Cavan.
Cavan looked a good team, some very big lads well able to play.

Did Mayo have out a good team?

That Cavan team was missing a good few regulars. For example, Killian Clarke and Gerard Smith didn't feature at all and Dara McVeety and Conor Moynagh only came on as subs. All four would be key starters. McVeety and Clarke played for the seniors last year.

Fowler87 · 13-01-2014 12:26AM

Lemlin wrote: »

Did Mayo have out a good team?

That Cavan team was missing a good few regulars. For example, Killian Clarke and Gerard Smith didn't feature at all and Dara McVeety and Conor Moynagh only came on as subs. All four would be key starters. McVeety and Clarke played for the seniors last year.

None of the minors from last two years featured, only the lads on their final year at u21. Apparantly it was a totally different 15 from the previous game too

ColeTrain · 13-01-2014 12:29AM

Lemlin wrote: »

Did Mayo have out a good team?

That Cavan team was missing a good few regulars. For example, Killian Clarke and Gerard Smith didn't feature at all and Dara McVeety and Conor Moynagh only came on as subs. All four would be key starters. McVeety and Clarke played for the seniors last year.

Mayo didn't have a lot of regulars out but Cavan were good. They had goal chances in the second half and could have added on more scores. Your number 14 is a big lad, same with the number 9. Good players.

Fowler87 · 13-01-2014 12:48AM

Jaysis we've done well to win a Connacht medal never mind appear in 7 AI finals in 25 years going by the opinions of some of the 'experts' in RTE. But sure we'll enjoy the journey (whether we win or not) as we 'choke' our way back into another host of AI finals over the next 25 years.

NabyLadistheman · 13-01-2014 12:56AM

Pffffft Seamus McEneany

Lemlin · 13-01-2014 01:52AM

ColeTrain wrote: »

Mayo didn't have a lot of regulars out but Cavan were good. They had goal chances in the second half and could have added on more scores. Your number 14 is a big lad, same with the number 9. Good players.

Nine I would imagine was Argue who is 6 foot 6. He's a giant.

blowitupref · 13-01-2014 02:14AM

Fowler87 wrote: »

None of the minors from last two years featured, only the lads on their final year at u21. Apparantly it was a totally different 15 from the previous game too

Nine changes was made from the Longford game. Mayo will have a strong starting 15 for the championship however i'm not so sure about their bench.

harpsman · 13-01-2014 12:16PM

ColeTrain wrote: »

How did Mayo choke against Donegal? A team with no character would have surrendered after losing two early goals, at least Mayo fought back and gave it a go. Same with the Dublin game, - there was still only a point in it at the end.
My point is the two games were lost for a lot of reasons. Management decisions, poor shooting, midfield being bypassed, losing goals at the wrong time, relying too much on frees etc
Of course you can just say we choked but that doesn't tell the whole story. The Mayo County board could spend millions bringing in the best sports psychologists in the world but that still wouldn't guarantee anything. Sometimes it goes for you on the day and sometimes it doesn't, it just hasn't happened for this team yet.

They choked against Donegal by sleepwalking their way through the first ten minutes allowing Donegal rack up a 7 point lead which could have easily been 10.
I never said they lacked character-you brought that up.

GBXI · 13-01-2014 12:19PM

harpsman wrote: »

They choked against Donegal by sleepwalking their way through the first ten minutes allowing Donegal rack up a 7 point lead which could have easily been 10.
I never said they lacked character-you brought that up.

How is that choking? Do you know what choking means? They were crap for the 1st ten minutes - doesn't mean they choked.

harpsman · 13-01-2014 12:28PM

GBXI wrote: »

How is that choking? Do you know what choking means? They were crap for the 1st ten minutes - doesn't mean they choked.

"'To choke' is a phrase used to refer to athletes who are typically very good in their sports but fail to deliver in key situations. The immense pressure of these key moments tends to overwhelm them and they end up making uncharacteristic mistake."
Id agree with this definition-what do you think choking means?
Or maybe youre saying the above doesnt apply to Mayo in AIFs??

GBXI · 13-01-2014 12:55PM

harpsman wrote: »

"'To choke' is a phrase used to refer to athletes who are typically very good in their sports but fail to deliver in key situations. The immense pressure of these key moments tends to overwhelm them and they end up making uncharacteristic mistake."
Id agree with this definition-what do you think choking means?
Or maybe youre saying the above doesnt apply to Mayo in AIFs??

That definition is fine.

I am saying the above definitely doesn't apply to Mayo in any final I've seen them play since the Meath replay in '96, particularly the last 2 finals.

Against Donegal there were an number of reasons why they let in 2 early goals (which clearly cost them the game) , 'choking'/pressure is not one of them. Against Dublin they were beaten by a better team on the day, Mayo played ok but not their best.

You're trying to take 7 finals, over 25 years, involving different teams/managers/circumstances, and because Mayo haven't won any of them you're putting it down to 'choking'. Very insightful!

Fowler87 · 13-01-2014 01:32PM

harpsman wrote: »

"'To choke' is a phrase used to refer to athletes who are typically very good in their sports but fail to deliver in key situations. The immense pressure of these key moments tends to overwhelm them and they end up making uncharacteristic mistake."
Id agree with this definition-what do you think choking means?
Or maybe youre saying the above doesnt apply to Mayo in AIFs??

Are you trying to be subtlely patronizing to Mayo by quoting that BS. Because we can play that game too Donegal fan...

Mayo lost AIs not by choking, simply by losing to the better team on the day. The only game where you could point your 'choke' analogy is 96 as they built up a considerable lead for Meath to comeback and draw the game late on in the day. But even then other factors contributed to make that match more than a 'choke' and bottle of the game..

harpsman · 13-01-2014 01:34PM

GBXI wrote: »

That definition is fine.

I am saying the above definitely doesn't apply to Mayo in any final I've seen them play since the Meath replay in '96, particularly the last 2 finals.

Against Donegal there were an number of reasons why they let in 2 early goals (which clearly cost them the game) , 'choking'/pressure is not one of them. Against Dublin they were beaten by a better team on the day, Mayo played ok but not their best.

You're trying to take 7 finals, over 25 years, involving different teams/managers/circumstances, and because Mayo haven't won any of them you're putting it down to 'choking'. Very insightful!

If you have to start telling "untruths" its not a great sign for your argument.
I didnt say that because Mayo lost the finals they choked. I thought they did very well in 89 and 96. However in 97,04,06 an 13 their performance level was a long way short of what they were capable of and in 12 they only started playing when the game was over.
Now like you say there are lots of reasons for this,but the principal one was inability to cope with the pressure of the final and the increasing baggage that comes with every loss

GBXI · 13-01-2014 01:54PM

harpsman wrote: »

If you have to start telling "untruths" its not a great sign for your argument.
I didnt say that because Mayo lost the finals they choked. I thought they did very well in 89 and 96. However in 97,04,06 an 13 their performance level was a long way short of what they were capable of and in 12 they only started playing when the game was over.
Now like you say there are lots of reasons for this,but the principal one was inability to cope with the pressure of the final and the increasing baggage that comes with every loss

Says who? What proof have you of that?

As far as I concerned, that's utter bull****. Or in more fancy language, 'a self-fulfilling prophecy'.

FullBack Jam · 13-01-2014 02:48PM

I'm from Mayo, but I'd have to side with Harpsman on this one. I would associate choking with nerves on the day affecting one's ability to play to their maximum capability, and affecting management so as not to think quickly when needed.

Up to the final they blew every team away through power, pace and a "no fear" attitude. In the final, it was business as normal for Mayo in AIFs - tentative, holding back and either no plan, or not abiding by the plan. You could nearly feel the vibe from the team on the day - as if they were thinking we cannot afford to lose this final with all of the expectation.

Anyway, Mayo have provided so many good days for the supporters. To be labelled chokers sounds so harsh for an amateur sportsman. But we cannot keep saying that they are unlucky, or that they keep coming up against a "better than average" opposition in the AIF.

harpsman · 13-01-2014 02:54PM

GBXI wrote: »

Says who? What proof have you of that?

As far as I concerned, that's utter bull****. Or in more fancy language, 'a self-fulfilling prophecy'.

Ok-you've convinced me.

GBXI · 13-01-2014 02:56PM

harpsman wrote: »

Ok-you've convinced me.

There have been countless good, insightful comments made about why Mayo lost the last 2 finals. You've said they lost due to the pressure, yet never elaborated - hence me saying it's bull****.

harpsman · 13-01-2014 02:58PM

flasher0030 wrote: »

I'm from Mayo, but I'd have to side with Harpsman on this one. I would associate choking with nerves on the day affecting one's ability to play to their maximum capability, and affecting management so as not to think quickly when needed.

Up to the final they blew every team away through power, pace and a "no fear" attitude. In the final, it was business as normal for Mayo in AIFs - tentative, holding back and either no plan, or not abiding by the plan. You could nearly feel the vibe from the team on the day - as if they were thinking we cannot afford to lose this final with all of the expectation.

Anyway, Mayo have provided so many good days for the supporters. To be labelled chokers sounds so harsh for an amateur sportsman. But we cannot keep saying that they are unlucky, or that they keep coming up against a "better than average" opposition in the AIF.

Needless to say I agree with you,particularly the underlined part.Some of the best games ive ever been at have involved mayo-and id say the 06 semi final was my favourite game ever. I just wish they could reproduce that fearlessness in a final(but not against Donegal;))

GBXI · 13-01-2014 03:03PM

flasher0030 wrote: »

I'm from Mayo, but I'd have to side with Harpsman on this one. I would associate choking with nerves on the day affecting one's ability to play to their maximum capability, and affecting management so as not to think quickly when needed.

Up to the final they blew every team away through power, pace and a "no fear" attitude. In the final, it was business as normal for Mayo in AIFs - tentative, holding back and either no plan, or not abiding by the plan.You could nearly feel the vibe from the team on the day - as if they were thinking we cannot afford to lose this final with all of the expectation.

Anyway, Mayo have provided so many good days for the supporters. To be labelled chokers sounds so harsh for an amateur sportsman. But we cannot keep saying that they are unlucky, or that they keep coming up against a "better than average" opposition in the AIF.

Apologies, but this is also poor analysis. I didn't get that impression at all. I noticed that they definitely tried to blow Dublin out of the water in the 1st half (were 0-7 0-2 up if I remember correctly) but a mix of not taking their chances and poor defending meant they didn't create the lead they should have by half-time.

And I haven't heard one knowledgeable person say Mayo were unlucky last year or the year before. They blew everyone away bar Dublin, because Mayo and Dublin (possibly Kerry) were in a league of their own last year. Mayo came up against a team as good as themselves in the final and they lost. No need for the amateur psychology.

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-01-2014 03:39PM

harpsman wrote: »

On your first point its my opinion that the cumulative effect of all the previous defeats is putting more pressure on the team in each successive final. I know they always say that it doesnt but based on what I see I dont believe them. anyway whether its 2 finals or 7 theres mental baggage there which has to be dealt with.

Second point-do Mayo people believe Donegal a better team than Mayo?
Id say Dublin are a better team but 2 minutes into the 2nd half of the final despite the teams being level it was obvious Mayo were gone.
So as hard as it is to admit for Mayo people they have choked now in 5 finals in a row.

As others have said there were a lot of reason why Mayo did not beat Dublin in 2013
1. Dublin were a great team
2. The Mayo sideline did not read the game correctly
3. Freeman came off after 20 mins (for whatever reason) and the only replacement available was a man who was injured all season.

In my mind the example of 'choking' is as follows

a) When a team that are a legitimate and clear favourite in a game fail to live up to it and end up loosing
b) When a team are in a strong position late in a game end up loosing the game.

I'm not sure there have been many examples of 'a' in the past few years but Kerry v Dublin in 2011 is an example of 'b'.

In 2013, 2012, 1006 or 2004 there is no way Mayo fitted into the above categories.
Were they humiliated in '04 and '06, they certainly were, but they did not choke, no.
If you say they choked in '04 and '06 then you could also argue that Donegal choked in the 2013 QF

In 2013 and 2012 they were beaten on the day by better teams.
In 2013 the Mayo management did 'choke' in the sense that Horan did not make the decisions that he could have to swing the game in Mayo's favour, but there are very few in Mayo that would deny this, which was your original point anyway.

I will concede this though, in 1997 and 1996 they did choke, in 1997 they allowed themselves to be beaten by on man on an average Kerry team, and missed lots of opportunities all day long, and they were not as prepared for that game as they should have been (Dermot Flannigan fiasco)
In 1996 they were in strong positions late in both games but managed to loose.
But I do not think that those three games weighs as heavy on the current squads minds as many like to think they do.

And I will also conceed that Mayo have not played above their capabilities on big days either, unlike the Clare 2013 team, but that is not choking either.

harpsman · 13-01-2014 04:43PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

As others have said there were a lot of reason why Mayo did not beat Dublin in 2013
1. Dublin were a great team
2. The Mayo sideline did not read the game correctly
3. Freeman came off after 20 mins (for whatever reason) and the only replacement available was a man who was injured all season.

In my mind the example of 'choking' is as follows

a) When a team that are a legitimate and clear favourite in a game fail to live up to it and end up loosing
b) When a team are in a strong position late in a game end up loosing the game.

I'm not sure there have been many examples of 'a' in the past few years but Kerry v Dublin in 2011 is an example of 'b'.

In 2013, 2012, 1006 or 2004 there is no way Mayo fitted into the above categories.
Were they humiliated in '04 and '06, they certainly were, but they did not choke, no.
If you say they choked in '04 and '06 then you could also argue that Donegal choked in the 2013 QF

In 2013 and 2012 they were beaten on the day by better teams.
In 2013 the Mayo management did 'choke' in the sense that Horan did not make the decisions that he could have to swing the game in Mayo's favour, but there are very few in Mayo that would deny this, which was your original point anyway.

I will concede this though, in 1997 and 1996 they did choke, in 1997 they allowed themselves to be beaten by on man on an average Kerry team, and missed lots of opportunities all day long, and they were not as prepared for that game as they should have been (Dermot Flannigan fiasco)
In 1996 they were in strong positions late in both games but managed to loose.
But I do not think that those three games weighs as heavy on the current squads minds as many like to think they do.

And I will also conceed that Mayo have not played above their capabilities on big days either, unlike the Clare 2013 team, but that is not choking either.

Ok,you either didnt read the definition of "choking" which I quoted or dont agree with it but didnt say so.

ColeTrain · 13-01-2014 05:38PM

harpsman wrote: »

They choked against Donegal by sleepwalking their way through the first ten minutes allowing Donegal rack up a 7 point lead which could have easily been 10.
I never said they lacked character-you brought that up.

Teams that "choke" do by definition, lack character - that's implied.

harpsman wrote: »

"'To choke' is a phrase used to refer to athletes who are typically very good in their sports but fail to deliver in key situations. The immense pressure of these key moments tends to overwhelm them and they end up making uncharacteristic mistake."
Id agree with this definition-what do you think choking means?
Or maybe youre saying the above doesnt apply to Mayo in AIFs??

Your analysis is very, very simplistic.

Was it down to Mayo's "choking" that the referee in the Donegal game did not award Cillian O'Connor a free, only for Donegal to go up the other end and score a goal?
While I'm not making excuses for Mayo losing, I'm just pointing out that not everything that happens in the 70minutes is in the control of one team. Even Murphy's first goal in that game was superb, but according to you sure Michael hammered the ball into the net, not because of his ability but because Mayo are chokers.

Surely the smart thing to do would be to look at every aspect of the game and get the reasons for the defeat there, rather than pretending to be an expert in sports psychology.

Syferus · 13-01-2014 07:20PM

To be fair, it's pretty clear to see there is a complex with Mayo and AI final day. It's happened before in sport and it will again. Choking is an emotive way of putting if but certainly the other team 'just being better' doesn't cut it at this stage.

Horan had Mayo as mentally strong as I've ever seen them and yet somehow the record remained the same. I think everyone hopes Mayo can win the big one at some stage.

keane2097 · 13-01-2014 07:33PM

The idea that Kevin Keane could have coped with the high ball delivered into Michael Murphy except for the fact that he choked is dumb as ****.

That All Ireland final was lost in pre-match tactical decisions and was lost to a team that was clearly superior in any case. Choking is a great narrative for the papers and is something fans can say to feel like they're clued in, but it doesn't hold up to the slightest scrutiny for games in the last 15 years.

keane2097 · 13-01-2014 07:35PM

Syferus wrote: »

Horan had Mayo as mentally strong as I've ever seen them and yet somehow the record remained the same.

Almost as you'd expect if their mental state wasn't the problem.

Syferus · 13-01-2014 07:59PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Almost as you'd expect if their mental state wasn't the problem.

The hand of history is felt strongly in Mayo, whether they want to admit it or not. These players grew up watching Mayo fluff their lines in the AI final; make no mistake, this is something pervasive and something no amount of swagger or psychobabble will fully until they can get over the line.

It's not the only reason they've lost the matches but to think it hasn't contributed is nothing short of ignoring the obvious.

seligehgit · 13-01-2014 08:34PM

TBH I'm sick to the teeth of people labelling Mayo chokers,gloating seems to the flavour of the day.From 1989 to 2013 I can not think of any final where Mayo were labelled favourites.
In 1989 nobody even expected Mayo to give Cork a game.
In 1996 losing the 6 point lead in the initial game is as close to choking as it gets.
Admittedly in 1997 we lost the final to probably the worst team from the Kingdom to win Sam.So definitely left it behind.
In 04 and 06 we underperformed but were never really expected to beat a Kerry team I rate one of the greatest of all time.In 2006 nobody expected us to trump the Dubs.
In 2012 Donegal were the team of the year and won the All Ireland as expected.
This year the best team of the year won the All Ireland.It was pretty obvious from the 2 league clashes that Dublin had the edge on us.As mentioned already in the last 2 finals sometimes the rub of the ball went against us.
I'm not dismissing the accumulative damage the losses can have psychologically but what are we to do,give up.Not in our character despite what some seem to think.
Some non Mayo people appear to be under the gravely wrong impression that Mayo supporters feel we would have won the last 2 Irelands if only.....the vast majority of Mayo people accept that the better teams won.
Even if the hypothesis that Mayo are chokers were to be proven what solutions do those who label us as such have?
Found the podcast if not entirely predictable,very depressing.
One can do all the preparations in the world but unless Mayo can find one marquee forward I can't see Sam coming home this year.Maybe Cillian will step up to the mark or some other as yet unknown individual.
I know Keane2097 will disagree.:D

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