The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

J C · 13-12-2013 12:31AM

Safehands wrote: »

And there you were JC, telling us that his words were inspired by God. Imagine that.

His words record the truth of what happened in Old Testament times ... including the Mosaic Laws and their punishments.

Safehands · 13-12-2013 01:09AM

J C wrote: »

His words record the truth of what happened in Old Testament times ... including the Mosaic Laws and their punishments.

So God told him that the punishment for certain sins was to bury a girl up to her neck and have men throw large rocks and stones at her, smashing her skull, her jaw, her cheek bones and her teeth, while she screamed and pleaded for mercy, until she could no longer fell any pain and they continued this "punishment" until she was well and truly dead. This was Mosaic law and punishment, inspired by God?

J C · 13-12-2013 09:02PM

Safehands wrote: »

So God told him that the punishment for certain sins was to bury a girl up to her neck and have men throw large rocks and stones at her, smashing her skull, her jaw, her cheek bones and her teeth, while she screamed and pleaded for mercy, until she could no longer fell any pain and they continued this "punishment" until she was well and truly dead. This was Mosaic law and punishment, inspired by God?

The Israelites, like many other societies, gave themselves various legal enactments and punishments ...
... and just like all other exercises in free-will, God allowed them to live under these severe (and endless) laws ... to prove to them that Law can only condemn.

Jesus drew a distinction between behaving morally (which He endorsed) and imposing severe punishment and over-bearing laws, like stoning people to death ... (which He condemned).

Matthew 23:1-6
New International Version (NIV)
A Warning Against Hypocrisy

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;

Safehands · 15-12-2013 02:38PM

J C wrote: »

The Israelites, like many other societies, gave themselves various legal enactments and punishments ...
... and just like all other exercises in free-will, God allowed them to live under these severe (and endless) laws ... to prove to them that Law can only condemn.

The laws of Moses were given to him by God. So we are told that it was God who made these laws. Whether Jesus did away with them or not, we are told that God said it was right and proper to stone people to death for various misdeeds. We must ask ourselves, was it ever right to kill people this way? The obvious answer is no. It was always a barbaric way to treat people. So, could a loving God have ever instructed anyone to stone someone to death at any time, before Jesus came or after he left?

J C · 15-12-2013 06:47PM

Safehands wrote: »

The laws of Moses were given to him by God. So we are told that it was God who made these laws. Whether Jesus did away with them or not, we are told that God said it was right and proper to stone people to death for various misdeeds. We must ask ourselves, was it ever right to kill people this way? The obvious answer is no. It was always a barbaric way to treat people. So, could a loving God have ever instructed anyone to stone someone to death at any time, before Jesus came or after he left?

God wrote the ten commandments allright ... but the temporal punishments for their breach (and a whole host of other laws) were written by Moses.
We were told that Moses made these laws and punishments ... and we were told that the reason Moses made these laws was because of the hardness of heart of the people to whom they applied ... the severity of the punishments therefore matched the stubborness of the people to whom they applied ... a bit like modern law reviews that strengthen the punishment for laws deemed to be important to society, that are not being sufficiently observed.

God endorses moral behaviour ... but the punsihments for immoral behaviour lie with Humans themselves ... and the forces of nature ... and these can result in death, even today.

Safehands · 15-12-2013 10:08PM

J C wrote: »

God wrote the ten commandments allright ... but the temporal punishments for their breach (and a whole host of other laws) were written by Moses.
We were told that Moses made these laws and punishments ... and we were told that the reason Moses made these laws was because of the hardness of heart of the people to whom they applied ... the severity of the punishments therefore matched the stubborness of the people to whom they applied ... a bit like modern law reviews that strengthen the punishment for laws deemed to be important to society, that are not being sufficiently observed.

God endorses moral behaviour ... but the punsihments for immoral behaviour lie with Humans themselves ... and the forces of nature ... and these can result in death, even today.

Deuteronomy is part of the bible and that is the inspired word of God. Several tracts instruct men to stone women to death. Are you actually saying that Deuteronomy is not the word of God?

masti123 · 17-12-2013 07:37PM

Worth a read.. Heard this several times over the years, seems scientific date confirms it.. Oh who we're these humans who had such advance technology that we have been lied to that they never existed?

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/470/Noah-s-Ark-Has-Been-Found-Why-Are-They-Keeping-Us-In-The-Dark-#.UqzqyiRM_Bc.facebook

Mod: Moved to Bible / creationism megathread

Frank Bullitt · 17-12-2013 09:40PM

masti123 wrote: »

Worth a read.. Heard this several times over the years, seems scientific date confirms it.. Oh who we're these humans who had such advance technology that we have been lied to that they never existed?

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/470/Noah-s-Ark-Has-Been-Found-Why-Are-They-Keeping-Us-In-The-Dark-#.UqzqyiRM_Bc.facebook

So, this can be seen as evidence for the existence of Noahs ark.

But all those fossils in museums, studies of evolution by scientists etc, thats all rubbish?

Brian Shanahan · 18-12-2013 12:34AM

masti123 wrote: »

Worth a read.. Heard this several times over the years, seems scientific date confirms it.. Oh who we're these humans who had such advance technology that we have been lied to that they never existed?

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/470/Noah-s-Ark-Has-Been-Found-Why-Are-They-Keeping-Us-In-The-Dark-#.UqzqyiRM_Bc.facebook

Mod: Moved to Bible / creationism megathread

To quote Senator Vreenak:

Read this and you'll find out why he's so annoyed about the resurfacing of this particular lie.

J C · 18-12-2013 09:25PM

Safehands wrote: »

Deuteronomy is part of the bible and that is the inspired word of God. Several tracts instruct men to stone women to death. Are you actually saying that Deuteronomy is not the word of God?

The Bible is truth ... and Deuteronomy is a true account of what it says.

Like I have previously said, these are the Mosaic Laws written by Moses and applied to the Israelites ... and the reason Moses made these laws was because of the hardness of heart of the people to whom they applied ... the severity of the punishments therefore matched the stubborness of the people to whom they applied ... a bit like modern law reviews that strengthen the punishment for breach of laws deemed to be important to society.

God endorses moral behaviour ... but the punsihments for immoral behaviour lie with Human law ... and the forces of nature ... and these can result in death, even today.:)

J C · 18-12-2013 09:59PM

masti123 wrote: »

Worth a read.. Heard this several times over the years, seems scientific date confirms it.. Oh who we're these humans who had such advance technology that we have been lied to that they never existed?

http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/470/Noah-s-Ark-Has-Been-Found-Why-Are-They-Keeping-Us-In-The-Dark-#.UqzqyiRM_Bc.facebook

Mod: Moved to Bible / creationism megathread

The jury is still out on exactly what, if anything, this structure is.

... a group from Hong Kong claim to have found a wooden structure high up on Mount Ararat ... here is a CBN account of the discovery ... which is still unconfirmed

... and here is the Time Magazine account

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1985830,00.html

... and the National Geographic account
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/

Frank Bullitt · 18-12-2013 10:00PM

Morality and christianity, summed up quite well.

J C · 19-12-2013 12:36AM

... and here is Dr William Lane Craig's views on the subject

Benny ... both posts should possibly be moved to the Atheism/Existence of God thread?

Safehands · 20-12-2013 12:27AM

J C wrote: »

The Bible is truth ... and Deuteronomy is a true account of what it says.

Wow JC, you must have spent hours coming up with that. Was it inspired by God or not?

J C wrote: »

Like I have previously said, these are the Mosaic Laws written by Moses

I agree 100% and they have nothing to do with God or any 'Devine' inspiration!

J C · 24-12-2013 09:59PM

Safehands wrote: »

Wow JC, you must have spent hours coming up with that. Was it inspired by God or not?

It's the truth that will set you free ... if you allow it to.

Safehands wrote: »

I agree 100% and they have nothing to do with God or any 'Devine' inspiration!

The Mosaic Laws were vastly superior to the arbitrary punishments handed down by other regimes at the time.
... and Christianity continues to be at the 'cutting edge' of best practice in the provision of social justice ... as well as mercy and forgiveness for sin.

bumper234 · 24-12-2013 10:37PM

J C wrote: »

It's the truth that will set you free ... if you allow it.

The Mosaic Laws were vastly superior to the arbitrary punishments handed down by other regimes at the time.
... and Christianity continues to be at the 'cutting edge' of best practice in the provision of social justice ... as well as mercy and forgiveness for sin.

Yeah.

Cant have those perverted priest's (Gods own servants on earth no less) going to hell for raping young children, best to have an easy out for their sins.

J C · 24-12-2013 11:03PM

bumper234 wrote: »

Yeah.

Cant have those perverted priest's (Gods own servants on earth no less) going to hell for raping young children, best to have an easy out for their sins.

... and it's an 'out' for all other sinners (including you and me) as well.:)

bumper234 · 24-12-2013 11:41PM

J C wrote: »

... and it's an 'out' for all other sinners (including you and me) as well.:)

And the circle begins again. Can't be bothered listening to you make excuses for your god. Enjoy the holidays and happy new year.

J C · 25-12-2013 12:09AM

bumper234 wrote: »

And the circle begins again. Can't be bothered listening to you make excuses for your god. Enjoy the holidays and happy new year.

I'm not making excuses for God, as no excuses are required ... I'm just pointing out that it is us who are in need of being excused ... and forgiven.:)

Happy Christmas to you too ... and wishing you every good thing in 2014.;)

Safehands · 27-12-2013 01:55PM

J C wrote: »

It's the truth that will set you free ... if you allow it to.
The Mosaic Laws were vastly superior to the arbitrary punishments handed down by other regimes at the time.
... and Christianity continues to be at the 'cutting edge' of best practice in the provision of social justice ... as well as mercy and forgiveness for sin.

JC, were the Mosaic laws outlined in the bible, given to him by God? Are they the word of God? Its a simple question really, the implications are not simple but the question is.

J C · 29-12-2013 11:00PM

Safehands wrote: »

JC, were the Mosaic laws outlined in the bible, given to him by God? Are they the word of God? Its a simple question really, the implications are not simple but the question is.

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God. The rest of the Mosaic Laws were written by Moses ... and adopted by the Israelites as how they would live under God ... just like the Gospels were written by the Four Evangelists.
All are true accounts of what they describe and they were handed down under Divine protection. The Bible is a 'warts and all' account of Human frailty, often at the highest levels as well as Human bravery and ethical behaviour, often at the lowest levels.

Safehands · 30-12-2013 12:32AM

J C wrote: »

The Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God. The rest of the Mosaic Laws were written by Moses ... and adopted by the Israelites as how they would live under God ... just like the Gospels were written by the Four Evangelists.
All are true accounts of what they describe and they were handed down under Divine protection. The Bible is a 'warts and all' account of Human frailty, often at the highest levels as well as Human bravery and ethical behaviour, often at the lowest levels.

Did you ever think of going into politics JC? You'd be brilliant my friend.
So just to clarify; Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Exodus are NOT the Devine word of God. They are in fact, the writings of Moses, not inspired by God. I always thought that the writings in the bible were the words of God and that the people who wrote it were inspired by Devine intervention. Now you tell us that is not so. It is Devine Protection, whatever that means. I assume that it means that the writings have some authorisation from the almighty. So what was instructed has a Devine seal of approval, so to speak. Is that what you are saying JC?

J C · 31-12-2013 10:57PM

Safehands wrote: »

Did you ever think of going into politics JC? You'd be brilliant my friend.
So just to clarify; Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Exodus are NOT the Devine word of God. They are in fact, the writings of Moses, not inspired by God. I always thought that the writings in the bible were the words of God and that the people who wrote it were inspired by Devine intervention. Now you tell us that is not so. It is Devine Protection, whatever that means. I assume that it means that the writings have some authorisation from the almighty. So what was instructed has a Devine seal of approval, so to speak. Is that what you are saying JC?

I couldn't have said it better meself!!!:)

Safehands · 01-01-2014 09:49PM

J C wrote: »

What did Jesus Christ say about this type of stuff?
He said that such laws reflected the hardness of heart of the people who wrote them ...

So Moses was a hard hearted man. He advocated these barbaric punishments which we all now acknowledge, were wrong. God approved of these writings, rather than inspiring them, so was he hard hearted also?

Frank Bullitt · 07-01-2014 11:30PM

Summed up quite well.

Safehands · 09-01-2014 12:07AM

JC, I was watching a wonderful programme called Stargazers on BBC tonight. They showed galaxies which were 23 million light years from Earth. These were scientists and astronaunts. I thought, as I watched it, a lot of Christians actually wont believe these facts, because the thought of anything being 23 million light years away contradicts the stories written 2000 years ago by the intelligencia of that time, before a simple telescope had even been invented.

It makes one wonder.

nagirrac · 09-01-2014 04:20AM

Safehands wrote: »

I thought, as I watched it, a lot of Christians actually wont believe these facts, because the thought of anything being 23 million light years away contradicts the stories written 2000 years ago by the intelligencia of that time, before a simple telescope had even been invented.

You do realize I hope that the telescope was invented by a Christian, as were essentially all major scientific breakthroughs since the 17th century. Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, Bacon, Boyle, Newton, Maxwell, etc. etc. were all Christians. Darwin was a Christian, Mendel the father of genetics was an Augustinian monk, George Lamaitre who derived Hubble's Law and proposed the Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest, and the key witness at the Dover trails against teaching ID in US classrooms was a Catholic theologian.

The idea that Christians are against science is a lazy modern atheist myth, and embarrassing for those who profess it given the history of science. In the case of evolution, the great majority of Christians, including Catholics and mainstream Protestants who make up >75% of Christians, accept the fact of biological evolution, and regard the theory of evolution as the best available scientific evidence to explain how humans emerged on this planet. The fact that a relatively small minority of Christians on a global basis, mainly situated in the Midwest and South of the US, openly oppose evolution is much more newsworthy than it deserves.

nozzferrahhtoo · 09-01-2014 08:31AM

nagirrac wrote: »

The idea that Christians are against science is a lazy modern atheist myth, and embarrassing for those who profess it given the history of science.

Thankfully then no one on this page of the thread did profess it. You appear to have taken the users post and used it as a launching point from which to play an unrelated record.

All he said was that "a lot" of Christians will not believe the claims because the concepts directly contradict certain beliefs. Specifically in this case the Young Earth or Young Universe creationism faction/types.

So his statement is perfectly true and ok, unless we want to pedantically equivocate over the meaning of "a lot".

While such creationists are thankfully a RELATIVE minority, I still find there is "a lot" of them. And quite a vocal minority they are too, especially in the US. With certain tendrils of it finding their way recently into places like the north of Ireland and the north of the current UK.

nagirrac · 10-01-2014 05:31AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So his statement is perfectly true and ok, unless we want to pedantically equivocate over the meaning of "a lot".

Bet that's the point, isn't it. A "lot" of Christians have no problem whatsoever with the fact of Biological evolution and accepting in principle whatever the latest state of understanding is in terms of the theory of Evolution. That "lot" would be approximately 85% or higher. Its probably roughly the same as any other demographic, if you are counting in the hundreds of millions at least (excluding the millions if not billions who know nothing of evolution, or science for that matter). No mention of that "lot" by safehands though, who likely just wanted to have a pop at Christians in general.

What difference does it make in the grand scheme of things that a small minority of Christians and some subset of Moslems oppose evolution in principle because of the myth of Adam and Eve? Last time I checked no ID proponent has or is threatening a Nobel prize, so they are of no relevance to science really. The only ones who get excited about them are strong atheists who seem to always need some straw man to fight against.

nozzferrahhtoo · 10-01-2014 09:28AM

nagirrac wrote: »

Bet that's the point, isn't it. A "lot" of Christians have no problem whatsoever

Which is also what I am saying, just from the opposite direction. The original point being that the "embarrassing myth" you suddenly brought up was one that no one on the thread actually espoused. I think someone just used a couple of your keywords, and you played a record.

nagirrac wrote: »

What difference does it make in the grand scheme of things that a small minority of Christians and some subset of Moslems oppose evolution in principle because of the myth of Adam and Eve?

Depends who you speak to I guess. It makes a "lot" of difference to some people in some areas. For example in the US where this vocal minority are litigation heavy. The "difference" it makes being measurable in educational resources being wasted on defending litigation, stultifying nonsense creeping its way into education curricula at the expense of actual science being pushed out, Museum exhibitions being compromised or removed, and much more.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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