UK considered giving half of NI to ROI

bear1 · 03-01-2014 10:47PM

spank_inferno wrote: »

I think Fermanagh moving over at least would have made some sense.

Only 65k people... Mostly catholic, nationalist.... And it would look better on a map.

We'd have most of Lough Erne then

tdv123 · 04-01-2014 04:25AM

Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Armagh, Derry & West Belfast should be given to the ROI. It would be a nice gesture to the nationalists there who've had to put up with such bullsh!t for so long.

The contempt some people have on here towards our brothers & sisters in the North who yearn to be with us (were they belong) astonishes me. I bet people living in Scotland & Wales had the same thoughts about us in 1919-21 but once we settled down they realized their views were misguided because of conflict & we were really no different to them.

Shame on you Free Staters.

getzls · 04-01-2014 11:04AM

tdv123 wrote: »

West Belfast should be given to the ROI.

How would that work?

A lot of Catholics living in West Belfast are Unionists.
To say nothing of the Protestant Unionists.

Are you going to decide street by street, or maybe house by house?

OK, number 5, 7, you are Nationalists you join the Republic.

9 and 11, no, you are Unionists you stay with the UK.:rolleyes:

tdv123 · 04-01-2014 12:14PM

getzls wrote: »

How would that work?

A lot of Catholics living in West Belfast are Unionists.
To say nothing of the Protestant Unionists.

Are you going to decide street by street, or maybe house by house?

OK, number 5, 7, you are Nationalists you join the Republic.

9 and 11, no, you are Unionists you stay with the UK.:rolleyes:

That won't work, number 7 is occupied by a staunch unionist, he won't move an inch not inch.

getzls · 04-01-2014 02:02PM

tdv123 wrote: »

That won't work, number 7 is occupied by a staunch unionist, he won't move an inch not inch.

Fairly sure 16 and 90 are Unionists also!

04-01-2014 02:14PM

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

spank_inferno · 04-01-2014 03:05PM

6541 wrote: »

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

I agree.

By 2100 the UK may look radically different or not even be there.

I think by 2100, NI will be a small independent state, self-ruling but with a royal head of state... Like Canada.

'Ireland Lite'.

bear1 · 04-01-2014 03:43PM

Interesting 6541, I'm actually quite curious even as what the whole situation will look like after the Scottish vote.
If they vote to leave then NI will be quite secluded from the rest of the UK.
Don't know if they would be an independent state though, just doesnt seem likely but again an interesting point.
If the North became independent would it be the RONI? Hmmm interesting indeed

Happyman42 · 04-01-2014 04:42PM

6541 wrote: »

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

It should never have cost the Irish taxpayer one penny/cent to secure their border, (as pointless and ineffective as the sop to Unionists was).
If we had adopted the attitude of pressuring them to do something proactive earlier, a lot less people would have died.
The release of these papers show that the British would have agreed to almost anything to get out.

Dr.Tank Adams · 04-01-2014 09:25PM

TBH I doubt it would have made much difference, you still have disgruntled Nationalists that were left in the British section and positively raging Unionists that had been ceded to the south, it may well have intensified the violence rather than alleviated it. Like can you imagine the absolute rabble-rousing field day someone like Paisley could have whipped up if this had happened.

grainnewhale · 04-01-2014 10:59PM

would have been a better idea, to force ulster unioinists to actually accept all of ulster and give the brits cavan, monaghan and Donegal. Then when it was shown that the democratic wish of the majority of people in northern Ireland were in favour of a united Ireland. it would show up unionists for the undemocratic, bigoted ignoramus they are.

.jacksparrow. · 04-01-2014 11:04PM

6541 wrote: »

The bottom line in this day and age is that the British do not want anything to do with NI. They are more or less washing there hands and saying its over to you guys in the North.
NI is a drain on security and on the public purse.
I think in a couple of generations society in the north will be very different, it will be interesting, it will probably be a pseudo Irish / British identity.
How about this let Britain pay for the North leave the border there, but culturally be confident in your sense of Irishness. That way the border becomes invisible and in essence someone else picks up the tab to administer a part of Ireland. Kinda like living rent free. How bad !

David Cameron only said the other day he wants northern Ireland to remain part of the UK.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25565100

This year, let the message go out from England, Wales and Northern Ireland to everyone in Scotland," he said, "We want you to stay."

grainnewhale · 04-01-2014 11:26PM

getzls wrote: »

How would that work?

A lot of Catholics living in West Belfast are Unionists.
To say nothing of the Protestant Unionists.

Are you going to decide street by street, or maybe house by house?

OK, number 5, 7, you are Nationalists you join the Republic.

9 and 11, no, you are Unionists you stay with the UK.:rolleyes:

They could decide the same way as the original six counties were decided. Tell those who oppose it, to suck it up or be shot.

Dr.Tank Adams · 05-01-2014 01:49AM

grainnewhale wrote: »

would have been a better idea, to force ulster unioinists to actually accept all of ulster and give the brits cavan, monaghan and Donegal. Then when it was shown that the democratic wish of the majority of people in northern Ireland were in favour of a united Ireland. it would show up unionists for the undemocratic, bigoted ignoramus they are.

The time to do that was 1920, unfortunately that ship was long sailed by then.

tdv123 · 05-01-2014 03:03AM

getzls wrote: »

Fairly sure 16 and 90 are Unionists also!

In all seriousness tho Tyrone, Fermanagh (who's councils declared their allegiance to the Dail in the 20's) & South Armagh should be given back to us. It's undemocratic to hold people to ransom against their will. There's benefits it that for Unionists as well if they wanted to remain "British".

Lou.m · 05-01-2014 03:09AM

It is ridiculous. The bit left in NI would have been unsustainable as such a small community. I wonder how Unionists feel about knowing this now. I imagine it would have eventually meant the unionist community would dwindle out in the half left. Once you start giving up territory would become inevitable unionists would leave for better opportunities to the mainland.

The truth is though I don't imagine Ireland would have coped well with this at the time.

I don't know why people are surprised with that woman...she was a sociopath who hated her own people too.

tdv123 · 05-01-2014 03:31AM

7 September 1921: In a letter to de Valera regarding counties Fermanagh and Tyrone, Lloyd George acknowledged that his government had a very weak case on the issue of "forcing these two counties against their will" to be part of Northern Ireland.

24 September 1921:Speaking in Dundee, Winston Churchill threatened war if the Dáil refused to accept the British offer.

28 November 1921: After Westminster decided to hand over responsibility for local government to Stormont, Tyrone County Council pledged its allegiance to Dáil Éireann. Eight smaller public bodies followed. That same day a bill was introduced in Stormont which allowed it to dissolve any local authority. Offices of Tyrone County Council were subsequently raided by the police and their records seized on 2 December 1921.

We can see just how unjust the border county situations are.

Fratton Fred · 05-01-2014 11:50PM

tdv123 wrote: »

We can see just how unjust the border county situations are.

It is customary to provide a link to quotes, to back them up. I think we all know who Winston Churchill was.

Dr.Tank Adams · 06-01-2014 12:48AM

Lou.m wrote: »

It is ridiculous. The bit left in NI would have been unsustainable as such a small community. I wonder how Unionists feel about knowing this now. I imagine it would have eventually meant the unionist community would dwindle out in the half left. Once you start giving up territory would become inevitable unionists would leave for better opportunities to the mainland.

The truth is though I don't imagine Ireland would have coped well with this at the time.

I don't know why people are surprised with that woman...she was a sociopath who hated her own people too.

Don't know about that, as long as they had Belfast NI would be able to survive, many of the areas that would have been passed over like Fermanagh/Tyrone/south Armagh were economically insignificant.

grainnewhale · 06-01-2014 06:06AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is customary to provide a link to quotes, to back them up. I think we all know who Winston Churchill was.

And what he was.

Fratton Fred · 06-01-2014 09:38AM

grainnewhale wrote: »

And what he was.

A politician?

timthumbni · 06-01-2014 01:29PM

getzls wrote: »

How would that work?

A lot of Catholics living in West Belfast are Unionists.
To say nothing of the Protestant Unionists.

Are you going to decide street by street, or maybe house by house?

OK, number 5, 7, you are Nationalists you join the Republic.

9 and 11, no, you are Unionists you stay with the UK.:rolleyes:

Good luck to the poor garda assigned to walk the shankill beat. :-)

timthumbni · 06-01-2014 02:48PM

I'm not sure I would read too much into this story.

It is interesting nonetheless. As a Norn iron unionist though it never fails to amaze me how naive republicans were and are in that they ever believed that it was the English British, uk government etc who were the main stumbling block to their imaginary "united ireland"

Certainly in modern times what has stopped it in its tracks were the British who actually live in Northern Ireland in the form of, for the most part, Northern Irish unionists.

I would suggest that like one of the sdlp old heads once said (may have been Hume I can't remember) the iras campaign of murder and mayhem has put any possibility of a united Ireland back by decades.

I have no interest personally in a united Ireland under Dublin rule. I would love to see a more united Northern Ireland though in which people got on a bit better. Anyway unless Northern Ireland is more united there is zero chance of a united Ireland ever coming to pass. You may get dublin rule ( though I can't see it personally) but the only difference would be the south picking up the enormous tab rather than the uk. And believe me paying for an unstable, security nightmare that quite possibly will happen is not a nice prospect. Ye may start playing footsie with Herr Angela again as more bail outs will be required.

A sizable number of people here now refer to themselves as being Northern Irish per the most recent census up here. I think that's a good thing. From memory British was the highest choice, then Northern Irish which to my surprise was higher than the number who identified themselves as being Irish. This annoyed the shinners to no end as the words Northern Ireland or Northern Irish are like kryptonite to them.

tdv123 · 06-01-2014 02:58PM

timthumbni wrote: »

Good luck to the poor garda assigned to walk the shankill beat. :-)

The only way this would be a problem is if the far right unionist politicians (which is basically all the unionist politicians) play the working classes of the religious divide against each other which has been a long time favorite tactic for them.

tdv123 · 06-01-2014 03:09PM

timthumbni wrote: »

I'm not sure I would read too much into this story.

It is interesting nonetheless. As a Norn iron unionist though it never fails to amaze me how naive republicans were and are in that they ever believed that it was the English British, uk government etc who were the main stumbling block to their imaginary "united ireland"

Certainly in modern times what has stopped it in its tracks were the British who actually live in Northern Ireland in the form of, for the most part, Northern Irish unionists.

I would suggest that like one of the sdlp old heads once said (may have been Hume I can't remember) the iras campaign of murder and mayhem has put any possibility of a united Ireland back by decades.

I have no interest personally in a united Ireland under Dublin rule. I would love to see a more united Northern Ireland though in which people got on a bit better. Anyway unless Northern Ireland is more united there is zero chance of a united Ireland ever coming to pass. You may get dublin rule ( though I can't see it personally) but the only difference would be the south picking up the enormous tab rather than the uk. And believe me paying for an unstable, security nightmare that quite possibly will happen is not a nice prospect. Ye may start playing footsie with Herr Angela again as more bail outs will be required.

A sizable number of people here now refer to themselves as being Northern Irish per the most recent census up here. I think that's a good thing. From memory British was the highest choice, then Northern Irish which to my surprise was higher than the number who identified themselves as being Irish. This annoyed the shinners to no end as the words Northern Ireland or Northern Irish are like kryptonite to them.

What a load of bollox. I'm pretty sure the loyalists didn't need any encouragement from the IRA in expressing their irrational fear of UI when the UVF started randomly murdering Catholics in 1966 or UVF/RUC backed mobs started invading nationalists areas in 69 & burned entire streets out long before the provisional IRA showed up on the scene.

T runner · 06-01-2014 03:58PM

bear1 wrote: »

Have to totally agree with this.
Does anyone know how much NI costs the UK every year? and how it compares to Wales and Scotland?

It costs 10.5 billion Sterling. Thats £5,850 per capita which is 3 times the UK average. That's in Greek deficit territory. For a comparison our deficit is 20 billion at the moment, but would be circa 35 billion if in NI proportions.

There are a few reasons its so high:

On the income side fiscal policy is decided in London on a UK wide basis and not in Belfast therefore NI can not structure its economy to be optimum (and the optimum is obviously a small open economy similar to the ROI).

Also a comparison between domestic product per person in NI and in the S and E of the ROI is stark.

Southern & Eastern Ireland (3 million) €35,725 GDP equiv per person
Northern Ireland (1.75 million) €19,603 (£15,249) GVO equiv. per person

On the expenditure side, decades of Unionist control since partition has built the public services up to gigantic proportions. The reasons were to bed the state in and to, being blunt, give the appearance that NI was a real country.

It cant compete with Britain or the ROI, within the UK. The result is the massive deficit.

Even if NI was given fiscal control of its economy it still could not compete with the much larger worker pool in the Republic.

For a UI to be economically possible that deficit must come right down. Ironically, SF as a socialist party are screaming for the grants to remain intact along with the Unionists which makes the prospects of a UI economically remote.

When a UI happens, and I think it will at some stage, it will be because the UK with the 3rd largest deficit in the world will see NI as a dependency it can do without ..... and squeeze the supply.

There might be another period of disturbance, in which case the British government might address what they and the Irish should have insisted upon during previous agreements: that the roots of sectarianism are identified and weeded.

bear1 · 06-01-2014 04:09PM

^^ Thank you for that post, very informative

Does the argument of this money being supplied to NI ever come up in British politics?

T runner · 06-01-2014 04:09PM

timthumbni wrote: »

I'm not sure I would read too much into this story.

It is interesting nonetheless. As a Norn iron unionist though it never fails to amaze me how naive republicans were and are in that they ever believed that it was the English British, uk government etc who were the main stumbling block to their imaginary "united ireland"

Certainly in modern times what has stopped it in its tracks were the British who actually live in Northern Ireland in the form of, for the most part, Northern Irish unionists.

I would suggest that like one of the sdlp old heads once said (may have been Hume I can't remember) the iras campaign of murder and mayhem has put any possibility of a united Ireland back by decades.

I have no interest personally in a united Ireland under Dublin rule. I would love to see a more united Northern Ireland though in which people got on a bit better. Anyway unless Northern Ireland is more united there is zero chance of a united Ireland ever coming to pass. You may get dublin rule ( though I can't see it personally) but the only difference would be the south picking up the enormous tab rather than the uk. And believe me paying for an unstable, security nightmare that quite possibly will happen is not a nice prospect. Ye may start playing footsie with Herr Angela again as more bail outs will be required.

A sizable number of people here now refer to themselves as being Northern Irish per the most recent census up here. I think that's a good thing. From memory British was the highest choice, then Northern Irish which to my surprise was higher than the number who identified themselves as being Irish. This annoyed the shinners to no end as the words Northern Ireland or Northern Irish are like kryptonite to them.

No offense, but I think many unionists are nota s familiar as they should be with the economic position of NI. You're deficit is in Greek proportions. Within the UK NI is an absolute dependency. UK Fiscal policy is set in London and obviously suits Britain.

Look at a comparison between domestic product per person in NI and in the S and E of the ROI:

Southern & Eastern Ireland (3 million) €35,725 GDP equiv per person
Northern Ireland (1.75 million) €19,603 (£15,249) GVO equiv. per person

Within a UI and with fiscal policy being decided in Ireland the 6 counties of NI should in time match or out perform the rest of Ireland.

If the UK, with the 3rd highest deficit in the world squeezes the 10 billion grant down to 5 billion, then a UI becomes economically do-able and sentiment towards it should increase as the wool is removed from the eyes with the supply being cut.

T runner · 06-01-2014 04:20PM

bear1 wrote: »

^^ Thank you for that post, very informative
Does the argument of this money being supplied to NI ever come up in British politics?

I think it does from time to time, but not as much as it will do. Post Downing street declaration, any threat to the grant was resolved by unionists and nationalist politicians having a falling out and the "pay off" for making up was grant related.

gallag · 06-01-2014 04:32PM

T runner wrote: »

No offense, but I think many unionists are nota s familiar as they should be with the economic position of NI. You're deficit is in Greek proportions. Within the UK NI is an absolute dependency. UK Fiscal policy is set in London and obviously suits Britain.

Look at a comparison between domestic product per person in NI and in the S and E of the ROI:

Southern & Eastern Ireland (3 million) €35,725 GDP equiv per person
Northern Ireland (1.75 million) €19,603 (£15,249) GVO equiv. per person

Within a UI and with fiscal policy being decided in Ireland the 6 counties of NI should in time match or out perform the rest of Ireland.

If the UK, with the 3rd highest deficit in the world squeezes the 10 billion grant down to 5 billion, then a UI becomes economically do-able and sentiment towards it should increase as the wool is removed from the eyes with the supply being cut.

The U.K economy is taking off, fastest growing economy in the E.U, the thing your post manages to miss is that Ireland is by far worse of than the U.K fiscally and completely incapable of running as is never mind a U.I.

UK considered giving half of NI to ROI

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