The Hazards of Belief

seamus · 21-12-2013 12:06AM

Obliq wrote: »

"The mother also had no veto on grounds of the constitutional protection afforded to a “family” because such protection is based on the family “as established by marriage”. In the circumstances of this case, where both parents were actively involved in the child’s life, neither had some predetermined constitutionally protected veto in applications of this type"

Well, I'd like to know how it would go if there WAS some kind of constitutional protection as established by marriage. It seems to me that the Supreme Court just dodged a bullet, by not having to decide (or tell us) which WAY was vetoed by marriage? I mean, what does that ........I don't even ?....

I remember this case coming up before, the conspiracy nuts were using it as an example of state-forced vaccinations.

I think the "family" challenge was based on the idea that the family was its own unit with the right to make decisions at it sees fit. Her argument was that as the child's "family", she retained the exclusive right to make the choice. The constitutional protection afforded to the family is protection from external interferences (courts, HSE, etc).

The flipside of such protection is that if the pair were married, it wouldn't even get as far as the high court; it would be a private matter. Either parent would have the right to make decisions unilaterally on behalf of the whole family and not require the permission of the other. The state would tell them to go off and sort it out between them.

I don't know the exact specifics of this case, but I'm guessing the father didn't just go ahead and do this either because he needed the mother to sign the consent form, or he was worried he'd lose custody if he acted unilaterally.

Though anecdotally I've heard of a lot of cases where the HSE will happily accept a consent form signed only by the mother, but will insist on two signatures when the form is presented by the father.

Obliq · 21-12-2013 12:24AM

seamus wrote: »

The constitutional protection afforded to the family is protection from external interferences (courts, HSE, etc).

The flipside of such protection is that if the pair were married, it wouldn't even get as far as the high court; it would be a private matter. Either parent would have the right to make decisions unilaterally on behalf of the whole family and not require the permission of the other. The state would tell them to go off and sort it out between them.

That's where they're dodging a bullet - I'm full sure that's a problematic are cos that sentence they came out with is a lot of guff for essentially saying 'you'd have to sort this out between you'. I'm glad though, if it is the case, that they've seemingly taken the interests of the child into account, regardless of who has most access to the child.

Though anecdotally I've heard of a lot of cases where the HSE will happily accept a consent form signed only by the mother, but will insist on two signatures when the form is presented by the father.

I would believe it, but I'd need to see it if ya know what I mean. I'm a separated parent AND an unmarried parent, and have needed the father's signature on everything for my youngest (married parents) and nothing for my eldest (bar the passport - unmarried parents).

Hotblack Desiato · 21-12-2013 08:44PM

Deeply disappointing in this day and age that a child can still have different legal rights depending on the marital status of his/her parents.

The childrens' rights referendum still hasn't been enacted (it's still under challenge) - I thought this was to remove the last vestiges of 'illegitimacy' ?

MrPudding · 22-12-2013 11:27AM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I don't know what's scarier, that court battles such as these are still happening or that the court saw this as a rights conflict instead of calling out the mother's argument for the dangerous crazy bullsh1t that it is.

Have not looked at the case yet, but I don't think this is the case. The parents put forth arguments based on a conflict of rights. These arguments were, quite rightly, dismissed by the court, 'The courts were not required to give way to the wishes of either married or unmarried parents and the welfare of the child is their “first and paramount consideration”.'

Good result.

MrP

MrPudding · 22-12-2013 11:33AM

ninja900 wrote: »

Deeply disappointing in this day and age that a child can still have different legal rights depending on the marital status of his/her parents.

The childrens' rights referendum still hasn't been enacted (it's still under challenge) - I thought this was to remove the last vestiges of 'illegitimacy' ?

I don't think it would have mattered in this case. She raised an argument, which the court had to deal with. Had they decided that she did have some right, on the basis of family, that right would still have been assessed in light of the "first and paramount consideration", that of the welfare of the child.

As I said, I have not read the case yet, but I expect this is not the court saying it would be different if the parents were married, it is simply the court dealing throughly with the arguments that are presented to it.

MrP

Nodin · 26-12-2013 05:11PM

Knesset speaker Yuli Edelstein says he refused to display a Christmas tree in the parliament because of the "painful memories" it evoked among Jews.

'Ze Germans' I thought, but no......

Edelstein told Israel Radio Thursday such a public display of a Christian
symbol could be construed as offensive.

Earlier this week, Edelstein rejected the request of a Christian-Arab
lawmaker. He said the parliamentarian could display a tree in his office and
party's conference room.

Edelstein says the initiative is part of an Arab campaign to chip away at Israel's Jewish nature. He warned that if he had agreed he would then likely face further requests to display a cross and crescent in parliament.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.565677

Hotblack Desiato · 27-12-2013 10:44PM

Burial box claimed to have earliest reference to Jesus to be put on display

For 2,000 years, pilgrims and archaeologists have hunted for physical evidence of Jesus and his family, without success.

But now an ancient burial box claimed to contain the earliest reference to the Christian Messiah is about to go on public display in Israel after its owner was cleared of forgery. It has not been seen in public since a single, brief exhibition in Toronto in 2002.

The modest limestone burial box, known as an ossuary, is typical of first-century Jerusalem, and is owned by Oded Golan, an Israeli antiquities collector. Chiselled on the side are the words: “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.”

After a 10-year investigation and criminal trial, he was found innocent of forgery in 2012. Despite the verdict, doubts remain. “Because of the differences in the depth and the clarity and the kerning [spacing] between the first half of the inscription that mentions James son of Joseph, and the second half, I’d be willing to wager that the second half was added in modern times,” said Prof Christopher Rollston of the Albright Institute of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem.

Of course, he could be wrong - the inscription could be ancient, and still be fake :pac:

Nodin · 27-12-2013 10:56PM

ninja900 wrote: »

Burial box claimed to have earliest reference to Jesus to be put on display

Of course, he could be wrong - the inscription could be ancient, and still be fake :pac:

Oded Golan
"According to the BBC, when the police took Oded Golan into custody and searched his apartment they discovered a workshop with a range of tools, materials, and half finished 'antiquities'. This was evidence for an operation of a scale far greater than they had suspected. Investigators have established that collectors around the world have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for artefacts that came through Oded Golan's associates. Dozens of these items were examined. Police then suspect that artefacts made by the same team of forgers have found their way into leading museums around the world."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oded_Golan

The documentary mentioned shows footage of the police raid and the workshop.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-12-2013 10:45AM

Feminists and religious conservatives in strange alliance over transactional sex

Feminists and religious fundamentalists shouldn’t mix. If they do find common cause, it’s often a sign that one-dimensional moral or ideological fanaticism – rigid adherence, fuelled by heightened emotion, to absolutist messages and beliefs – has become more important than what happens to real people in the real world.

In June, the Oireachtas justice committee backed the introduction of laws against the buyers of sex. This was claimed as a victory by Turn Off the Red Light, an anti-prostitution campaign largely driven by Ruhama, a project of two of the religious orders associated with the Magdalene laundries, and the Immigrant Council, which was founded by a nun from one of those orders and is now directed by a self-described radical feminist. Here, too, the ramped-up talk is all of exploitation and harm, damage and coercion: the notion of free choice and personal agency is dismissed as an impossibility.

By indulging in this pseudo-philanthropic meddling (“we know what’s best for you, you must be saved”) these ideologues, both secular and religious, also deprive sex workers of the second most important and hard-won freedom after the right to say no: the right – if they so choose – to say yes.

bnt · 30-12-2013 10:50PM

Normally, when a mohel botches a bris, he gets the sack* , but a rabbi in the USA is still working after screwing it up in a far more serious manner:

A local rabbi is being sued after allegedly botching a bris, the traditional Jewish circumcision ritual, and severing a newborn boy’s penis.
...
The baby needed six blood transfusions and was hospitalized for nearly two months. Sources describe the reattachment procedure as successful.

:eek:

* I'll get my coat

Banbh · 30-12-2013 10:57PM

Is a non-medical circumcision legal in Ireland? Surely any holy man carrying out this sort of thing can and should be charged with causing grievous bodily harm.

robindch · 01-01-2014 04:49PM

Pope Frank's comments on wealth have annoyed the wealthy, with one rich American making vague threats to the unashamedly conservative cardinal of New York, Timothy Dolan:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/31/pope-capitalism-wealthy-donor_n_4523332.html

HuffPo wrote:

[...] At issue is an effort to raise $180 million for the restoration of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York being spearheaded by billionaire Ken Langone, the investor known for founding Home Depot, among other things.

Langone told CNBC that one potential seven-figure donor is concerned about statements from the pope criticizing market economies as "exclusionary," urging the rich to give more to the poor and criticizing a "culture of prosperity" that leads some to become "incapable of feeling compassion for the poor."

Langone said he's raised the issue more than once with Cardinal Timothy Dolan, archbishop of New York, most recently at a breakfast in early December at which he updated him on fundraising progress.

"I've told the cardinal, 'Your Eminence, this is one more hurdle I hope we don't have to deal with. You want to be careful about generalities. Rich people in one country don't act the same as rich people in another country,' " he said. [...]

Hotblack Desiato · 01-01-2014 10:18PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/extraordinary-tradition-of-peacekeeping-praised-1.1641476

Ireland’s international peacekeepers were warmly praised by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin this morning as he recalled that “the children of wars are among the largest group of victims who have appeared on our television reviews of the year 2013”.
...
The Mass was celebrated by the papal nuncio Archbishop Charles Brown with music by the Palestrina choir.

President Michael D Higgins and his wife Sabina were there, and Cllr Edie Wynne represented Dublin’s Lord Mayor Oisín Quinn.. Also present were representatives of the judiciary, Garda, Defence Forces, diplomatic corps, Knights of the Holy Sepulchre, Knights of Malta and Knights of St Columbanus.

Edit: Given the conduct of the RCC hierarchy in relation to its child rape conspiracy, isn't the presence of Garda and judicial representatives a disgrace? A case could possibly be made for our President to attend ex-oficio (although, I'd rather he didn't) but this clearly shows the vice-like grip of the RCC on the machinery of our state including its judicial system.

Banbh · 01-01-2014 10:44PM

And who are the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre?

Hotblack Desiato · 01-01-2014 10:56PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre

Like the Columbanus crowd, a bunch of fifth columnists within the higher echelons of our state who owe their allegiance to another state and a 'heavenly kingdom' :rolleyes:

Would we be so happy to tolerate this if it were, say, Freemasons? I think not.

Banbh · 01-01-2014 10:58PM

To answer my own question, I googled and discovered that their full name is the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem and their head honcho in Ireland is His Eminence Sean Cardinal Brady, Grand Prior of the Order. The supreme wizard is Cardinal O'Brien of the USA and the love dressing up (silly hats are de rigeur) and giving each other honours.

Hotblack Desiato · 01-01-2014 11:23PM

To: lettersed@irishtimes.com

Sir,

Regarding the attendance of representatives of An Garda Siochana and of our judiciary at the recent mass celebrated by the Papal Nuncio (Irish Times, Jan 1), perhaps this goes some way to explain the lack of prosecutions in relation to the conspiracy to cover up clerical child abuse in our so-called secular republic?

Yours,
...

robindch · 02-01-2014 12:06AM

"...with the Gardaí and judiciary literally eating out of the hands of the hierarchy, is it any wonder that not a single bishop has been prosecuted for so much as a lop-sided wink?"

Hotblack Desiato · 02-01-2014 12:25AM

robindch wrote: »

"...with the Gardaí and judiciary literally eating out of the hands of the hierarchy, is it any wonder that not a single bishop has been prosecuted for so much as a lop-sided wink?"

Citation needed, Rob

recedite · 02-01-2014 12:45AM

I see that Cardinal Rogering Mahony of the USA was also knighted by the order.
Disappointing to see President Michael D. going along with all this nonsense, and giving the stamp of State approval.

Banbh · 02-01-2014 10:59AM

literally eating out of the hands of the hierarchy

I took that as a reference to the free wafer biscuits.

kiffer · 02-01-2014 01:12PM

Banbh wrote: »

I took that as a reference to the free wafer biscuits.

I was warming up to complain about the use of literally... thanks for pointing this out.

robindch · 02-01-2014 07:40PM

Well, hello there 1633!

Stacy Trasancos is a PhD-level chemist from Texas and recent catholic convert. She's written a book which claims that science is derived from catholicism, means nothing without catholicism, cannot exist without catholicism and is subservient to catholicism:

Stacy Trasancos wrote:

[...] the Catholic Church has the ‘right and authority to veto scientific conclusions’ that contradict its dogma

Comments are open on Trasancos' webpage, for anybody with too much time on their hands!

Banbh · 02-01-2014 07:44PM

She has an MA in 'dogmatic theology'. I didn't think there was any other kind.

robindch · 03-01-2014 12:13AM

"Pastor Tries to Walk on Water Like Jesus, Then Drowns in Front of His Congregation"

http://allchristiannews.com/pastor-tries-to-walk-on-water-like-jesus-then-drowns-in-front-of-his-congregation/

All Christian News wrote:

Walking on water is not easy. Not too many people have the ability. Let’s see, there’s Jesus, and well, that’s about it. Unfortunately for one pastor on the West Coast of Africa, his attempt to become the second man to make this impossible feat a reality cost him his life.

Pastor Franck Kabele, 35, told his congregation that he was capable of reenacting the very miracles of Jesus Christ. He decided to make it clear through way of demonstration on Gabon’s beach in the capital city of Libreville.

Referencing Matthew 14:22-33, Kabele said that he received a revelation which told him that with enough faith he could achieve what Jesus was able to.

According to an eyewitness, Kabele took his congregation out to the beach. He told them that he would cross the Kombo estuary by foot, which is normally a 20 minute boat ride.

Sadly by the second step into the water Kabele found himself completely submerged. He never returned.

This is not the first incident of this nature in Africa. At Ibadon zoo in south-west Nigeria, a self-proclaimed Prophet claimed to be able to do what the Daniel of the bible did by walking into a den full of lions.

Though he was warned numerous times by zoo keepers, according to NG Newspapers, the Prophet thought of them as nothing more than enemies of progress. The Prophet, with a crowd of people watching, put on a long red robe and proceeded to enter the cage full of lions.

Within seconds of opening the door, the lions ripped the Prophet from flesh to bone. The bible should come with a warning label, “Don’t try this at home.”

biko · 03-01-2014 12:15AM

Tbh, I think it's a good thing that they (accidentally) kill themselves. Jesus Darwin at work.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-01-2014 02:03AM

It's not their fault, god was too busy at that moment watching someone else masturbate (and finding a kitten to kill) and didn't get around to saving our religious hero in time.

MrPudding · 03-01-2014 08:15AM

ninja900 wrote: »

It's not their fault, god was too busy at that moment watching someone else masturbate (and finding a kitten to kill) and didn't get around to saving our religious hero in time.

No, I think there was a really important football game on, be was probably helping some of the players score some really important goals. Plus, continuing to allow thousands of children to die probably takes a lot of effort.

MrP

robindch · 03-01-2014 11:46AM

"Catholic Employers Claim That Filling Out an Obamacare Form Violates Their Religious Freedom"

...but presumably doesn't violate the freedom of the people whose reproductive choices the employers are controlling.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/01/02/justice_sotomayor_grants_temporary_injunction_to_catholic_groups_who_say.html

legspin · 03-01-2014 01:01PM

robindch wrote: »

"Pastor Tries to Walk on Water Like Jesus, Then Drowns in Front of His Congregation"

http://allchristiannews.com/pastor-tries-to-walk-on-water-like-jesus-then-drowns-in-front-of-his-congregation/

Having a Nelson Munce moment here.