Rental property Inspected by County Council

Yllonnoc · 30-12-2013 3:48pm #1

Hello,

I have a rental property which has recently been inspected by the County Council. One of the requirements was that the bathrooms upstairs have extractor fans. Both bathrooms have windows, so I cannot understand the requirement for this.

This is the document the county council representative referred me to: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,19428,en.pdf

This is an extract from page 16:

Bathrooms
6. In each bathroom/wc, where there is an openable window or door to external
air, the opening section must be a minimum 1/20th of floor area.
7. In each bathroom/wc, there must be a mechanical extraction vent unobstructed
or passive stack vent with humidity control, in working order.
8. In each bathroom/wc, without opening section to external air for rapid
ventilation the mechanical extraction vent must have 15 minutes overrun or be
controlled by humidistat.

I note that these are only Guide lines, so would I be breaking any law by ignoring this request.

Any advice appreciated.

Regards,
Stephen

newbie2013 · 30-12-2013 4:38pm

Yllonnoc wrote: »

Hello,

I have a rental property which has recently been inspected by the County Council. One of the requirements was that the bathrooms upstairs have extractor fans. Both bathrooms have windows, so I cannot understand the requirement for this.

This is the document the county council representative referred me to: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,19428,en.pdf

This is an extract from page 16:

Bathrooms
6. In each bathroom/wc, where there is an openable window or door to external
air, the opening section must be a minimum 1/20th of floor area.
7. In each bathroom/wc, there must be a mechanical extraction vent unobstructed
or passive stack vent with humidity control, in working order.
8. In each bathroom/wc, without opening section to external air for rapid
ventilation the mechanical extraction vent must have 15 minutes overrun or be
controlled by humidistat.

I note that these are only Guide lines, so would I be breaking any law by ignoring this request.

Any advice appreciated.

Regards,
Stephen

What CC was it. Are you under one of the schemes that teh council pay your rent ?

Yllonnoc · 30-12-2013 4:40pm

It is the Wexford County Council, CC are not paying the rent. As I write house is currently empty, I have a new tenant moving on the 1st Jan.

newbie2013 · 30-12-2013 4:43pm

Yllonnoc wrote: »

It is the Wexford County Council, CC are not paying the rent. As I write house is currently empty, I have a new tenant moving on the 1st Jan.

I never knew the council inspected rental properties. When did this come into force. Will the council be paying the rent for the new tennant ?

Yllonnoc · 30-12-2013 4:46pm

Its the Housing Section of the Wexford County Council. No the new tenant will be paying me directly, they have no connection with the CC.

Its a new one on me aswell, I really annoyed about it, it seems completely unnecessary.

Santa Cruz · 30-12-2013 4:50pm

newbie2013 wrote: »

I never knew the council inspected rental properties. When did this come into force. Will the council be paying the rent for the new tennant ?

This is a new regulation. Dublin South Council are doing it. Of course they are making their job easy by inspecting modern apartments instead of older properties. They check out the property and ask for certificates of boiler maintenance etc.
It would be more in their line to ensure that their own housing is up to the standard required.

Yllonnoc · 30-12-2013 4:52pm

Thanks for the feedback,

I've exchanged a few emails the CC representative, outlining my annoyance at this, but it seems I have no come back, if I don't comply, I'll be breaking the law.

Has anyone else experienced these inspections?

michael999999 · 30-12-2013 4:55pm

Yllonnoc wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback,

I've exchanged a few emails the CC representative, outlining my annoyance at this, but it seems I have no come back, if I don't comply, I'll be breaking the law.

Has anyone else experienced these inspections?

I'm sure none of the tenants of priory hall have anyway.

Victor · 30-12-2013 4:55pm

Yllonnoc wrote: »

I note that these are only Guide lines, so would I be breaking any law by ignoring this request.

The guidelines refer to the regulations, see these.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0534.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0462.html

newbie2013 wrote: »

I never knew the council inspected rental properties. When did this come into force.

It is under the 2004 Act. The inspections are paid for out of the tenancy registration fee.

Will the council be paying the rent for the new tennant ?

All private tenancies are inspected.

Santa Cruz wrote: »

This is a new regulation. Dublin South Council are doing it. Of course they are making their job easy by inspecting modern apartments instead of older properties.

Many of the problems will be with modern properties. SDCC would have one of the lowest average ages for housing stock anyway.

They check out the property and ask for certificates of boiler maintenance etc.

Not unreasonable.

It would be more in their line to ensure that their own housing is up to the standard required.

Their responsibilities for their own housing stock are different. They receive a lower rent and have lower responsibilities. Correspondingly, the tenant has greater responsibilities when it comes to maintenance.

Yllonnoc · 30-12-2013 5:00pm

Thanks for all the feedback on this.

I don't have a problem with the inspections. I'm just annoyed that they are demanding extractor fans when there is no need for them, just because someone decided it would be a good idea. Its complete nonsense. A window is a perfectly acceptable form of ventilation.

I just saw this in the links Victor provided:

Ventilation

9. (1) Every room used, or intended for use, by the tenant of the house as a habitable room shall have adequate ventilation.

(2) All means of ventilation shall be maintained in good repair and working order.

(3) Adequate ventilation shall be provided for the removal of water vapour from kitchens and bathrooms.

Does a window not qualify here?

notharrypotter · 30-12-2013 5:27pm

Technical guidance document F Ventilation

This might help.

Maybe you need to get an engineer to certify that the ventilation as currently exists complies to that.

they are demanding extractor fans when there is no need for them, just because someone decided it would be a good idea. Its complete nonsense. A window is a perfectly acceptable form of ventilation.

Victor · 31-12-2013 5:43pm

notharrypotter wrote: »

Technical guidance document F Ventilation

This might help.

Maybe you need to get an engineer to certify that the ventilation as currently exists complies to that.

Note that all regulations would need to be complied with. Only complying with the building regulations isn't enough.

murphaph · 31-12-2013 6:23pm

Op you're not the first person I've heard about getting served this ridiculous notice to install extractors in bathrooms with opening windows. Somebody is sure to challenge this some day. I had a property inspected by Fingal Co Co and they didn't require this. In my opinion a window IS mechanical ventilation. Common sense demands that a window is perfectly adequate ventilation for a bathroom. If not then why are the general building regs still allowing windows as the sole form of bathroom ventilation even today?

Victor · 31-12-2013 10:17pm

murphaph wrote: »

In my opinion a window IS mechanical ventilation.

Which is the machine part?

quietsailor · 31-12-2013 10:21pm

Victor wrote: »

Which is the machine part?

The hinges, lock mechanism, sliding hinge if it's a modern pvc type of window - all mechanical components

I'm just home from Germany and was talking to friends over there, an extractor is only required when there is no window available to open in the bathroom, I know I'd regard the German housing authorities more competent than our own, it's a pity ours didn't go abroad and look for best practice when they drew up the rules, we'd have a lot better housing stock now

quietsailor · 31-12-2013 10:30pm

I had the similar inspection with Cork City council. It's an old house so it has draughts like all old houses. The lad inspecting it pointed out that it had to have xmm2 ventilation (can't remember the exact figure), I just looked at him for 20 secs and he burst out laughing - the problem in Ireland is stopping the free flow of air in our houses, not increasing it.

A lot of these inspectors aren't qualified enough to do this (not their faults, they weren't trained high enough) as they can only rigidly apply the rules without thinking of the consequences ie

- See a room with no vent fitted but has older doors with low sealing ability = insist a vent be fitted anyway. End result - tenant complains about colds, flu, draughts and high heating bills.

OP all you can do is write to them outlining why you feel that your house follows rules. More than likely though you won't hear from them again. Do you know a civil engineer/surveyor who could write up a report backing up what your arguing? If they come back to you, you would have this in reserve to prove your point

murphaph · 31-12-2013 10:54pm

quietsailor wrote: »

The hinges, lock mechanism, sliding hinge if it's a modern pvc type of window - all mechanical components

I'm just home from Germany and was talking to friends over there, an extractor is only required when there is no window available to open in the bathroom, I know I'd regard the German housing authorities more competent than our own, it's a pity ours didn't go abroad and look for best practice when they drew up the rules, we'd have a lot better housing stock now

The crazy thing is our general building regs don't require any additional ventilation over a window. It's only the standards for rented accommodation that mention this and as I said an opening window is mechanical in most cases. Mechanical doesn't mean "powered" or "automatic". The handle and hinges of a standard double glazed window can certainly be considered a mechanism and a mechanism is mechanical by definition.

BryanF · 01-01-2014 1:36am

murphaph wrote: »

The crazy thing is our general building regs don't require any additional ventilation over a window. It's only the standards for rented accommodation that mention this and as I said an opening window is mechanical in most cases. Mechanical doesn't mean "powered" or "automatic". The handle and hinges of a standard double glazed window can certainly be considered a mechanism and a mechanism is mechanical by definition.

Building Regs require mech vents in wc & kitchen
http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,21710,en.pdf
Require adequate ventilation meaning mech vents in same

quietsailor · 01-01-2014 1:40am

BryanF wrote: »

Building Regs require mech vents in wc & kitchen
http://www.environ.ie/en/Legislation/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,21710,en.pdf
Require adequate ventilation meaning mech vents in same

I'm saying this as tongue-in-cheek rather than sarcastically but if there is a vent with a sliding cover or a vent with one of the breeze blocking devices on the outside that hinges open then thats a mechanical fitting.

I suspect what you, and the document authors, are talking about is a motorised extractor or fan extractor. I know what you/the doc means, but I wonder could you argue the point with a judge - "it says mechanical, nothing about a fan/motor so I comply"

BryanF · 01-01-2014 1:49am

quietsailor wrote: »

wonder could you argue the point with a judge - "it says mechanical, nothing about a fan/motor so I comply"

No
Expert witness for council: arch, eng, surveyor would say otherwise.

quietsailor · 01-01-2014 5:58am

BryanF wrote: »

No
Expert witness for council: arch, eng, surveyor would say otherwise.

Yes but the people (I met anyway) doing the inspecting aren't those experts. They're tradesmen & people who worked in the house maintenance dept of the city council who are re-purposed into inspectors.

Now stack that up against a civil engineer who has decided to be bolshie and not accept the inspection. The expert witness that eh council will have to call has never seen the house so they're walking up to the judge and not giving evidence, they're giving hearsay & judges don't like that.

Anyway it's moot as I never saw the fella who inspected my house again, not a good system at all if inspections aren't followed up.

murphaph · 01-01-2014 8:55am

BryanF wrote: »

No
Expert witness for council: arch, eng, surveyor would say otherwise.

And all the judge needs to do is look up the definition of mechanical. An expert witness can say black is white but it doesn't make it so. Mechanical does not imply powered or automatic. The law is vague at best.

Can you provide a link to building regs that state that a window is not good enough for a WC? I know they require a fan in the kitchen. Perhaps they've been extended since I last looked. Cheers. I'm on phone today so not easy to search.

teacherhead · 01-01-2014 9:17am

I know that is be happier with a mechanical fan \ vent than depending on a tenant to open the window after showering every time.

If its about the cost of a fan I think that dealing with dampness and mildew is a bigger problem if left unchecked. A tenant showering in the morning and bailing out of the house yo work will see mo condensation on their return but the moisture will have gone somewhere.

I would also make it part if the rental agreement that fans where fitted must be used at all times. A houseowner in my opinion will be more careful about these things than a tenant.

murphaph · 01-01-2014 10:34am

teacherhead wrote: »

I know that is be happier with a mechanical fan \ vent than depending on a tenant to open the window after showering every time.

If its about the cost of a fan I think that dealing with dampness and mildew is a bigger problem if left unchecked. A tenant showering in the morning and bailing out of the house yo work will see mo condensation on their return but the moisture will have gone somewhere.

I would also make it part if the rental agreement that fans where fitted must be used at all times. A houseowner in my opinion will be more careful about these things than a tenant.

Unfortunately you speak the truth when talking about Irish tenants. In Germany a landlord would deduct from the deposit if a tenant caused mould by not properly airing.

Victor · 01-01-2014 7:12pm

quietsailor wrote: »

The hinges, lock mechanism, sliding hinge if it's a modern pvc type of window - all mechanical components

By that reckoning is a child's scooter a mechanically propelled vehicle?

quietsailor wrote: »

I suspect what you, and the document authors, are talking about is a motorised extractor or fan extractor. I know what you/the doc means, but I wonder could you argue the point with a judge - "it says mechanical, nothing about a fan/motor so I comply"

The extraction needs to be mechanical, not the window locking mechanism.

As anyone in construction what "mechanical ventilation" means and they will say it requires a fan. Anything else is considered passive ventilation.

quietsailor wrote: »

The expert witness that eh council will have to call has never seen the house so they're walking up to the judge and not giving evidence, they're giving hearsay & judges don't like that.

Who says they haven't seen the property.

They would be giving evidence as to what is "mechanical ventilation". The inspector would be giving evidence as to what was seen on site.

ShaShaBear · 02-01-2014 6:02pm

Sorry, but as a renter, I don't think it's appropriate to have to shower or bathe with a window open to prevent steam damaging the walls and stripping the paint or slowly causing mould growth.
Especially not in the Winter.

Victor · 02-01-2014 7:01pm

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Sorry, but as a renter, I don't think it's appropriate to have to shower or bathe with a window open to prevent steam damaging the walls and stripping the paint or slowly causing mould growth.
Especially not in the Winter.

You can keep it closed during shower and open it after shower.

ShaShaBear · 02-01-2014 7:39pm

Victor wrote: »

You can keep it closed during shower and pen it after shower.

I still don't think anyone should have to leave their window open in the dead of winter to remove steam from a shower or bath.

murphaph · 02-01-2014 8:03pm

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I still don't think anyone should have to leave their window open in the dead of winter to remove steam from a shower or bath.

In Germany it is recommended to open your windows wide 4 times a day for 5 minutes each in the dead of (really cold) winter (longer in warmer seasons). The heat in the room is in the solid items and the walls mostly, not in the air. If you open the windows wide and let the air change in 5 mins, when you close the windows the room will heat up again quickly as the heat from the walls transfers to the (now fresh) air.

In Ireland we historically installed those mega draughty vents to bedrooms (massive waste of energy) so never got in the habit of properly airing the bedroom after sleeping in it all night (and expiring lots of water vapour into the air, furnishings, clothes, walls etc.). In Germany (and in general on the contienent AFAIK) these vents were never installed and people just aired the bedroom in the morning (at least). Airing the bathroom is a natural extension of that.

In Ireland bathrooms generally don't have those draughty vents, so it's essential to air the room after bathing, no matter what time of year!

quietsailor · 02-01-2014 10:23pm

teacherhead wrote: »

I know that is be happier with a mechanical fan \ vent than depending on a tenant to open the window after showering every time.

If its about the cost of a fan I think that dealing with dampness and mildew is a bigger problem if left unchecked. A tenant showering in the morning and bailing out of the house yo work will see mo condensation on their return but the moisture will have gone somewhere.

I would also make it part if the rental agreement that fans where fitted must be used at all times. A houseowner in my opinion will be more careful about these things than a tenant.

I wouldn't agree with the comment about the householder, I've seen plenty of houses that aren't rentals without fans, but overall I'd agree with you, it's better to have a fan installed than use a window. I lived in a house without a fan in a small shower room and even with the window open a lot it got mouldy

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Sorry, but as a renter, I don't think it's appropriate to have to shower or bathe with a window open to prevent steam damaging the walls and stripping the paint or slowly causing mould growth.
Especially not in the Winter.

The Irish seem to be unique in this, I've lived with French, Spanish and Germans and they found it weird we don't open the windows to air our rooms.

murphaph wrote: »

In Germany it is recommended to open your windows wide 4 times a day for 5 minutes each in the dead of (really cold) winter (longer in warmer seasons). The heat in the room is in the solid items and the walls mostly, not in the air. If you open the windows wide and let the air change in 5 mins, when you close the windows the room will heat up again quickly as the heat from the walls transfers to the (now fresh) air.

In Ireland we historically installed those mega draughty vents to bedrooms (massive waste of energy) so never got in the habit of properly airing the bedroom after sleeping in it all night (and expiring lots of water vapour into the air, furnishings, clothes, walls etc.). In Germany (and in general on the contienent AFAIK) these vents were never installed and people just aired the bedroom in the morning (at least). Airing the bathroom is a natural extension of that.

In Ireland bathrooms generally don't have those draughty vents, so it's essential to air the room after bathing, no matter what time of year!

I asked my friend in Germany about mould in bathrooms and in his lease if there is mould in the house from internal water vapour then the tenant pays the costs of repairing it as it's the tenants fault

quietsailor · 02-01-2014 10:30pm

Victor wrote: »

By that reckoning is a child's scooter a mechanically propelled vehicle?

The extraction needs to be mechanical, not the window locking mechanism.

As anyone in construction what "mechanical ventilation" means and they will say it requires a fan. Anything else is considered passive ventilation.

Who says they haven't seen the property.

They would be giving evidence as to what is "mechanical ventilation". The inspector would be giving evidence as to what was seen on site.

Who says they haven't seen the property.
The council don't use an engineer/surveyor/architect to inspect the houses - that's what was told to me by the inspector himself, unless he wanted to lie for me for some reason I have to believe him - so therefore any of the engineers in the council won't have seen the house. If the owner is going to argue the point I doubt they are going to let any further inspections happen either.

They would be giving evidence as to what is "mechanical ventilation". The inspector would be giving evidence as to what was seen on site.
Again you'll be talking about someone giving evidence on something they haven't seen, I can't see an owner letting the engineer in if they're going to argue the point in court, and the house-owner's lawyer would attack the inspector on their qualifications. It's an unlikely scenario but if you get a house-owner bolshie enough it is possible

Victor · 04-01-2014 12:30am

quietsailor wrote: »

I had the similar inspection with Cork City council. It's an old house so it has draughts like all old houses. The lad inspecting it pointed out that it had to have xmm2 ventilation (can't remember the exact figure), I just looked at him for 20 secs and he burst out laughing - the problem in Ireland is stopping the free flow of air in our houses, not increasing it.

Actually, what rules are there about preventing draughts at doors and windows?

quietsailor wrote: »

If the owner is going to argue the point I doubt they are going to let any further inspections happen either.

Then either the judge is going to order a further inspection or will fill the property owner guilty.

Rental property Inspected by County Council

Comments