Should NAMA be privatised NOW

Xenophile · 23-12-2013 10:37pm #1

Should NAMA be privatised NOW. Yes I think so, get an independent valuation of NAMA from independent valuers from outside the State and offer the shares to the public.

Get this NAMA monkey off our backs. It holds the largest property portfolio in the world, lacks transparency and it could give back billions to the Exchequer in a relatively short time instead of waiting for 2020. ( Great vision there don't excuse the pun ).

In the meantime if NAMA was to be turned into a PLC many Irish citizens would have the opportunity to take a gamble, of course it would need quite a few big players in the person such as Denis O’Brien and Michael O’Leary as well as foreign investors.

Sand · 23-12-2013 10:45pm

If they are willing to pay at terms that return all capital the Irish taxpayer paid out on NAMA, plus interest. Sure. A private company the Irish people do not own would be more accountable to the Irish people than NAMA is.

If its just a thinly veiled vulture fund of the good and great of little old Ireland - no.

gaius c · 24-12-2013 12:08pm

Bad and all that NAMA is, can you imagine just how vile a secret and unaccountable sell off of it would be?

djpbarry · 24-12-2013 1:53pm

Xenophile wrote: »

Get this NAMA monkey off our backs. It holds the largest property portfolio in the world, lacks transparency and it could give back billions to the Exchequer in a relatively short time instead of waiting for 2020.

What if the state makes considerably more money by waiting until 2020?

Nate--IRL-- · 24-12-2013 2:05pm

Wait, isn't it 51% owned by private investors already? The Government is the minority shareholder.

Nate

gaius c · 24-12-2013 5:36pm

djpbarry wrote: »

What if the state makes considerably more money by waiting until 2020?

Bear in mind that it's profit forcibly extracted from our pockets by putting an artificial floor under the market. Socialising the losses basically.

daRobot · 24-12-2013 5:39pm

gaius c wrote: »

Bear in mind that it's profit forcibly extracted from our pockets by putting an artificial floor under the market. Socialising the losses basically.

Exactly. It's a shame most don't spot that this.

Xenophile · 25-12-2013 8:33am

Guys walking away with the inside track, how can you stop them from talking.

Pack it up as soon as we can, avoid huge salaries, scandals and possible further commissions of inquiries. Many people who need a medical card now will not be alive in 2020.

Xenophile · 25-12-2013 8:51am

The true value of the property market will not be established until NAMA is wound up. Keep in mind that human nature being what it is there will be a lot of people who will want to keep it going as long as they can. Take a leaf out of the former Anglo Irish Bank and consign NAMA to history as soon as possible.

realitykeeper · 25-12-2013 9:57am

Xenophile wrote: »

Should NAMA be privatised NOW. Yes I think so, get an independent valuation of NAMA from independent valuers from outside the State and offer the shares to the public.

Get this NAMA monkey off our backs. It holds the largest property portfolio in the world, lacks transparency and it could give back billions to the Exchequer in a relatively short time instead of waiting for 2020. ( Great vision there don't excuse the pun ).

In the meantime if NAMA was to be turned into a PLC many Irish citizens would have the opportunity to take a gamble, of course it would need quite a few big players in the person such as Denis O’Brien and Michael O’Leary as well as foreign investors.

Yes. NAMA should be privatized and renamed BAMA - Bank asset management agency. In fact every thing that was done since the night of the guarantee should be undone. Besides the "guarantee" was always a misnomer. It was a bit like trying to insure a house against fire after it had already burned down. I think its called fraud.

the_syco · 25-12-2013 10:09am

gaius c wrote: »

Bear in mind that it's profit forcibly extracted from our pockets by putting an artificial floor under the market. Socialising the losses basically.

And imagine the crap that they'd go through to maximise profit if it was totally in private hands?

If they have the money to play the long game, the people who made their money and went "bankrupt" would probably come back and buy back their property at a reduced rate.

Xenophile · 26-12-2013 9:40pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes. NAMA should be privatized and renamed BAMA - Bank asset management agency. In fact every thing that was done since the night of the guarantee should be undone. Besides the "guarantee" was always a misnomer. It was a bit like trying to insure a house against fire after it had already burned down. I think its called fraud.

BAMA interesting name but as it would be a PLC I would call it PAMA. Public asset management agency.

realitykeeper · 27-12-2013 6:22am

Xenophile wrote: »

BAMA interesting name but as it would be a PLC I would call it PAMA. Public asset management agency.

The word "public" in this context tends to used in the USA to describe private companies which are traded on the stock market. In this part of the world it usually refers to the public sector.

Xenophile · 27-12-2013 8:31am

realitykeeper wrote: »

The word "public" in this context tends to used in the USA to describe private companies which are traded on the stock market. In this part of the world it usually refers to the public sector.

In Ireland a PLC is a public limited company. As opposed to a LTD. which is a private limited company!

djpbarry · 27-12-2013 2:27pm

gaius c wrote: »

Bear in mind that it's profit forcibly extracted from our pockets by putting an artificial floor under the market.

That assumes everyone in Ireland would be better off now in the absence of the bailout and the establishment of NAMA?

Xenophile · 27-12-2013 6:41pm

djpbarry wrote: »

That assumes everyone in Ireland would be better off now in the absence of the bailout and the establishment of NAMA?

From the Bible.

"The poor we shall always have with us"

realitykeeper · 28-12-2013 9:08am

Xenophile wrote: »

In Ireland a PLC is a public limited company. As opposed to a LTD. which is a private limited company!

Yes but in everyday parlance how often do you hear of a PLC being referred to as a public limited company. You are far more likely to hear left wing pinkos blab about the public sector.

Xenophile · 28-12-2013 9:11am

NAMA's whole purpose is corruption, to cover the banking debts of a few well connected developers, who happened to support the FF party.

They are currently sitting on thousands of sellable properties to artificially prop up prices. Again, for the benefit of their developers at the expense of anyone who wants to buy a house.

They pay the same bankrupt developers a 6 figure sum each year to continue not developing houses.

They pay their own staff massive salaries, presumably so that they can sleep at night working in such an odious environment.

So corruption in Nama is more of a dog bites man story. Show me something good or honest NAMA has done and then we'll talk.

Originally posted by Johnnyskeleton in the forum....... Potential for Corruption in NAMA

hfallada · 28-12-2013 9:26am

Xenophile wrote: »

NAMA's whole purpose is corruption, to cover the banking debts of a few well connected developers, who happened to support the FF party.

They are currently sitting on thousands of sellable properties to artificially prop up prices. Again, for the benefit of their developers at the expense of anyone who wants to buy a house.

They pay the same bankrupt developers a 6 figure sum each year to continue not developing houses.

They pay their own staff massive salaries, presumably so that they can sleep at night working in such an odious environment.

So corruption in Nama is more of a dog bites man story. Show me something good or honest NAMA has done and then we'll talk.

Originally posted by Johnnyskeleton in the forum....... Potential for Corruption in NAMA

Nama has sold everything that was high value and easy to sell eg its apartments in London. It has started to unload its property portfolio slowly in Ireland. But it's hard to sell properties when there is no finance to sell them on.

Most developers have lost everything. Or will lose everything. You can barely open the irish times without reading Nama is doing everything possible to get assets off developers for tax payers.

Nama pay their staff large salaries as they are educated individuals. Their salaries are high because that's what the private sector pay for staff of a similar calibre. But not high enough as Nama staff are constantly leaving to work in the private sector due to better wages.

Nama has existed for 5/6 years and there has been only one shady transaction with its employees. Yet for a company of its size that is pretty good. There is no evidence of corruption. And in fact most Irish people have no idea what corruption is. I can't imagine a Nama employee on €200k risking his future career for small exchange of information for cash.

Xenophile · 28-12-2013 9:24pm

hfallada wrote: »

Nama has sold everything that was high value and easy to sell eg its apartments in London. It has started to unload its property portfolio slowly in Ireland. But it's hard to sell properties when there is no finance to sell them on.

Most developers have lost everything. Or will lose everything. You can barely open the irish times without reading Nama is doing everything possible to get assets off developers for tax payers.

Nama pay their staff large salaries as they are educated individuals. Their salaries are high because that's what the private sector pay for staff of a similar calibre. But not high enough as Nama staff are constantly leaving to work in the private sector due to better wages.

Nama has existed for 5/6 years and there has been only one shady transaction with its employees. Yet for a company of its size that is pretty good. There is no evidence of corruption. And in fact most Irish people have no idea what corruption is. I can't imagine a Nama employee on €200k risking his future career for small exchange of information for cash.

I think you illustrate my point, their high value assets have been sold.

So I ask are they still paying the same high rent to manage a less valuable portfolio?

Has their cost of salaries decreased in line with their asset value?

People leave with the inside track, no wonder they can be valuable to other people!

Wrap it now as the going gets tough let the tough (private sector) get going!

gaius c · 28-12-2013 10:39pm

djpbarry wrote: »

That assumes everyone in Ireland would be better off now in the absence of the bailout and the establishment of NAMA?

Why are you responding to a point I didn't make? (Re bailout)

hfallada · 29-12-2013 9:36am

Xenophile wrote: »

I think you illustrate my point, their high value assets have been sold.

So I ask are they still paying the same high rent to manage a less valuable portfolio?

Has their cost of salaries decreased in line with their asset value?

People leave with the inside track, no wonder they can be valuable to other people!

Wrap it now as the going gets tough let the tough (private sector) get going!

Nama doesn't pay any rent as it owns the assets. It receives rent from the buildings it owns.

The people leave as they have banking experience. This government believes its better to have poor quality cheap staff, than experienced and expensive staff. When your are operating the largest property company the world you expect a decent wage. But they aren't getting a good wage so they leave to work for other banks.

All staff member I imagine signed a confidentiality agreement. Meaning they won't dissolve the value of assets when they worked in Nama. There has only been one case of a Nama employee discussing sensitive information. There has been no other evidence of disclosing sensitive information.

Are you suggesting Nama has a quick fire sale to save maybe a few million in wages, but in the long run will cost the tax payer millions? Selling everything to the private sector means the public sector will lost out on money from Nama. There is zero logic to selling everything in Nama tomorrow

Xenophile · 29-12-2013 10:30am

hfallada wrote: »

Nama doesn't pay any rent as it owns the assets. It receives rent from the buildings it owns.

The people leave as they have banking experience. This government believes its better to have poor quality cheap staff, than experienced and expensive staff. When your are operating the largest property company the world you expect a decent wage. But they aren't getting a good wage so they leave to work for other banks.

All staff member I imagine signed a confidentiality agreement. Meaning they won't dissolve the value of assets when they worked in Nama. There has only been one case of a Nama employee discussing sensitive information. There has been no other evidence of disclosing sensitive information.

Are you suggesting Nama has a quick fire sale to save maybe a few million in wages, but in the long run will cost the tax payer millions? Selling everything to the private sector means the public sector will lost out on money from Nama. There is zero logic to selling everything in Nama tomorrow

Examiner 05 January 2013.While Treasury Holdings, which is now gone into liquidation, is not included in the OPW list, the NTMA pays it €900,000 in rent every year for use of the Treasury building, which is home to Nama.Yes I am saying sell everthing now the market conditions will be right by the middle of this summer

Hotblack Desiato · 29-12-2013 11:14am

Xenophile wrote: »

Examiner 05 January 2013.While Treasury Holdings, which is now gone into liquidation, is not included in the OPW list, the NTMA pays it €900,000 in rent every year for use of the Treasury building, which is home to Nama.

Your point?

Yes I am saying sell everthing now the market conditions will be right by the middle of this summer

Yes let's have a firesale of a massive portfolio of assets acquired at great expense (by the taxpayer recapitalising the banks for the losses crystallised when NAMA took the loans over.)

You have good reason to believe that there won't be decent future capital growth and rent returns from these properties? In that case why would anyone pay a decent price for them?

You have good reason to believe that unloading such a large portfolio of properties at once won't cause the values to crash and greatly reduce the return? Note - I don't care about property values per se, but the overall value that NAMA can obtain for its portfolio in a firesale vs. a piecemeal run down.

Xenophile · 29-12-2013 1:25pm

ninja900 wrote: »

Your point?

Yes let's have a firesale of a massive portfolio of assets acquired at great expense (by the taxpayer recapitalising the banks for the losses crystallised when NAMA took the loans over.)

You have good reason to believe that there won't be decent future capital growth and rent returns from these properties? In that case why would anyone pay a decent price for them?

You have good reason to believe that unloading such a large portfolio of properties at once won't cause the values to crash and greatly reduce the return? Note - I don't care about property values per se, but the overall value that NAMA can obtain for its portfolio in a firesale vs. a piecemeal run down.

Take the bull by the Horns, the Private sector can now realise their best value not just a staff (basicaly public servants with no long term career prospects, it's just a stepping stone for them and I believe quite a few have them have jumped already).........."Just do it"..........the sooner the better and the sooner we will recover from it. Piecemeal will cost us more in salaries etc in the long run.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-12-2013 1:27pm

That doesn't answer the question. Also, salaries etc. are a red herring as NAMA returns a profit from rents to the exchequer each year.

Why do you think we should force NAMA to conduct a fire sale?

djpbarry · 29-12-2013 3:57pm

gaius c wrote: »

Why are you responding to a point I didn't make? (Re bailout)

NAMA established an "artificial floor" in the sense that it limited the effects of a crash. In that context, arguing that any profit NAMA makes is inherently artificial, as it is being subsidised by taxpayers, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, as we have no idea how better/worse off taxpayers would be if NAMA had not been established.

NAMA exists and is currently running a profit. It is in the interest of taxpayers that this return be maximised. Selling everything now does not strike me as the best way to do this. It would be a case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Xenophile · 29-12-2013 8:08pm

djpbarry wrote: »

NAMA established an "artificial floor" in the sense that it limited the effects of a crash. In that context, arguing that any profit NAMA makes is inherently artificial, as it is being subsidised by taxpayers, doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, as we have no idea how better/worse off taxpayers would be if NAMA had not been established.

NAMA exists and is currently running a profit. It is in the interest of taxpayers that this return be maximised. Selling everything now does not strike me as the best way to do this. It would be a case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

At this moment in time rather than arguing this matter further I think it might be a good idea for me to seek the views of Senator Fergal Quinn, Shane Ross T.D. or the independent T.D. for Wicklow i.e Stephen Donnelly T.D on the subject or perhaps the view of all three people.

OssianSmyth · 01-01-2014 6:55pm

NAMA is a privately owned public authority. Shares in NAMA are held by pension funds in trust for their private investors. However, the owners have very limited legal rights to profit from their investment. Although nominally privately owned, the High Court found in March 2013 that NAMA was a public authority, required to comply with public access requests for environmental information.

Far from shutting down or privatising NAMA, the Fine Gael / Labour government has greatly expanded its remit by adding 500 staff and transferring €22bn of loans from Anglo, doubling its balance sheet. At inception, NAMA was intended to shut in 2020. Perhaps this date will be delayed to handle the new scope.

As a public authority regulated by the NAMA Act, NAMA must
* publish quarterly financial reports
* report to Min Finance through its board, appointed by the minister
* co-operate with audits from the C&AG's office
* answer questions at the Oireachtas Committee of Public Accounts (and the new PAC NAMA subcommittee)
* be scrutinised by the NAMA Advisory Group
* comply with normal Company law including filings to the CRO.

If NAMA were sold off in a sudden firesale, it would no longer have to comply with any of the above apart from the last item.

NAMA does not have significant market power in the residential sector where it holds loans secured on less than 10k properties compared to 1.6m households in the state. So the idea that it is artificially controlling res prices doesn't stand up.

As it stands, a report of corruption in NAMA could be noticed or reported by multiple channels and then publicly scrutinised, whereas a privately run company would typically handle such an event in private.

NAMA needs great and multiple oversight as there is so much public money at stake. Thankfully, NAMA has been profitable for the past three years and it is not out of the question that it will at least break even.

realitykeeper · 02-01-2014 5:27am

Xenophile wrote: »

From the Bible.

"The poor we shall always have with us"

This is a very good point. The bible also says those who have will be blessed with more and those without will have what little they have taken away.

Scouser · 03-01-2014 10:01pm

so what we gonna do with all this extra dough?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/nama-generates-16-5bn-in-cash-1.1643498

Should NAMA be privatised NOW

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