25th anniversary of Lockerbie atrocity today

Femme_Fatale · 21-12-2013 02:33PM #1

I remember when this awful event happened (I was a young kid) but never properly researched the finer details - until today. Holy ****... it's something that you wouldn't be able to get your head around.
Not a single survivor on board the plane (one woman was discovered still alive by a farmer's wife in a field, but it was too late by the time emergency services got there) and then the massive quantity of fuel causing firebombs that turned residents of an estate into ash. "Vaporised" is the term that was used...

How would all those people who witnessed what was falling from the sky ever be right again...

The ripple effect is still being felt today as it is agreed justice has never been fully done. Gaddafi said he never ordered it, but there are folks in the know who claim this is untrue...

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 02:36PM

The direct cause of these atrocities is the West's incessant interference in Arab affairs. In this sense, we need to apportion blame on both sides.

It just won't do to say it's a one-sided affair. I'm not suggesting you believe this but many do and its disconcerting.

Wacker The Attacker · 21-12-2013 02:40PM

I feel an invasion coming on

Muise... · 21-12-2013 02:47PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The direct cause of these atrocities is the West's incessant interference in Arab affairs. In this sense, we need to apportion blame on both sides.

It just won't do to say it's a one-sided affair. I'm not suggesting you believe this but many do and its disconcerting.

The direct cause was a bomb on the plane.

nlgbbbblth · 21-12-2013 02:51PM

I was recording Fanning's Fab 50 that night. I think it was the first night of three. A newsflash interrupted the broadcast. I still have it on tape.

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 03:07PM

Muise... wrote: »

The direct cause was a bomb on the plane.

The bomb was the proximate cause of the catastrophe.

The direct cause of the occurrence of the incident is Western interference in Arab countries.

Muise... · 21-12-2013 03:14PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The bomb was the proximate cause of the catastrophe.

The direct cause of the occurrence of the incident is Western interference in Arab countries.

What is the direct cause of your comments, since the OP never mentioned blame?

Femme_Fatale · 21-12-2013 03:25PM

If you're going to fight the West (and I do understand grievances towards the American government) don't do it by blowing up a jumbo jet full of people (mostly American, but of several other nationalities too) going home for Christmas and over land.
The people of Lockerbie must have thought it was the apocalypse. What an intensely numbing, terrifying, surreal feeling it must have been...

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 04:34PM

Muise... wrote: »

What is the direct cause of your comments, since the OP never mentioned blame?

The direct cause of my comments is wretcheddomain.

You're right - the OP never mentioned blame, I did.

Therefore, the net value of your post is 0.

Fox_In_Socks · 21-12-2013 04:54PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The direct cause of my comments is wretcheddomain.

You're right - the OP never mentioned blame, I did.

Therefore, the net value of your post is 0.

What would you like to do now?

bnt · 21-12-2013 05:03PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The direct cause of the occurrence of the incident is Western interference in Arab countries.

It was a bit more specific than that: Iran Air Flight 655.

The "West" has been "interfering" in "Arab" * countries for centuries - that alone isn't a reason for terrorist action. Osama Bin Laden, after receiving US support for years in Afghanistan, turned against the USA because of USA bases in what he considered the holy land of Saudi Arabia. Iran had actually thrown off Western interference (the 1979 revolution) and was engaged in a war with Iraq. They were even getting some weapons from the USA by back channels (the Iran-Contra affair).

So, the Iranians behind Pan Am 103 had no specific gripe with the USA until a US warship, guarding oil tankers headed for the USA, shot down one of their passenger aircraft.

* Iran is not an Arab country, the Iranian people are Persians.

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 06:19PM

bnt wrote: »

It was a bit more specific than that: Iran Air Flight 655.

The "West" has been "interfering" in "Arab" * countries for centuries - that alone isn't a reason for terrorist action. Osama Bin Laden, after receiving US support for years in Afghanistan, turned against the USA because of USA bases in what he considered the holy land of Saudi Arabia. Iran had actually thrown off Western interference (the 1979 revolution) and was engaged in a war with Iraq. They were even getting some weapons from the USA by back channels (the Iran-Contra affair).

So, the Iranians behind Pan Am 103 had no specific gripe with the USA until a US warship, guarding oil tankers headed for the USA, shot down one of their passenger aircraft.

* Iran is not an Arab country, the Iranian people are Persians.

I'd agree with most of your conclusions, as drawn from the evidence.

It's also true that at various times over the course of the past decades that the United States has shifted allegiance to one group or country and then further shifted. This is part and parcel of what I mean by 'interference'. It can be interference in support of one group and then a radical shift in support of another depending on the strategic interest in mind.

Muise... · 21-12-2013 06:42PM

Fox_In_Socks wrote: »

What would you like to do now?

I think he'd like to say he told us so. It's always nice to fingerjab on a thread about a massacre.

clairefontaine · 21-12-2013 06:45PM

A guy I went to college with lost his 14 year old sister on that flight.

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 06:46PM

Muise... wrote: »

I think he'd like to say he told us so. It's always nice to fingerjab on a thread about a massacre.

It's not about jabbing - it's about putting catastrophes such as this in context. The only way to learn from events such as this is by analysing its causes and trying to act appropriately in measures to deter this type of crime.

Another poster rightly mentioned the Iranian flight which was savagely shot down by the USS Vincennes killing 290 people. It's a curious case to see how this is almost forgotten by many yet somehow the Lockerbie bombing deserves our attention.

The fact remains that both events were directly (or for some 'indirectly') caused by Western intervention and any analysis of events such as this needs to take causation into account if a fair and balanced discussion is to take place.

Skid X · 21-12-2013 06:58PM

I remember watching BBC2 when this Newsflash came on. It was a horrific tragedy, coming so close to Christmas made it even more poignant

clairefontaine · 21-12-2013 07:02PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

It's not about jabbing - it's about putting catastrophes such as this in context. The only way to learn from events such as this is by analysing its causes and trying to act appropriately in measures to deter this type of crime.

Another poster rightly mentioned the Iranian flight which was savagely shot down by the USS Vincennes killing 290 people. It's a curious case to see how this is almost forgotten by many yet somehow the Lockerbie bombing deserves our attention.

The fact remains that both events were directly (or for some 'indirectly') caused by Western intervention and any analysis of events such as this needs to take causation into account if a fair and balanced discussion is to take place.

Really. Lockerbie happenned in Scottish airspace and killed 11 people on the ground. What the hell does SCotland have to do with the USS Vincennes who MISTAKINGLY identified the Iranian flight as hostile.

Lockerbie was a pre mediated terrorist attack on a civilian plane, carrying citizens of different nations, someof whom were children, some of whom were Scottish and in Scottish airspace.

Skylinehead · 21-12-2013 07:03PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Another poster rightly mentioned the Iranian flight which was savagely shot down by the USS Vincennes killing 290 people. It's a curious case to see how this is almost forgotten by many yet somehow the Lockerbie bombing deserves our attention.

Forgotton? It was one of the highest profile plane crashes in history, and still is. Obviously people are going to think about Lockerbie much more, because it happened in Scotland. Would you go on about people not musing over every Iraq suicide bombing in the same way as 7/7? It's human nature.

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 07:12PM

What on Earth are you talking about?

clairefontaine wrote: »

Really. Lockerbie happenned in Scottish airspace and killed 11 people on the ground. What the hell does SCotland have to do with the USS Vincennes who MISTAKINGLY identified the Iranian flight as hostile.

Lockerbie was a pre mediated terrorist attack on a civilian plane, carrying citizens of different nations, someof whom were children, some of whom were Scottish and in Scottish airspace.

If you've done any level of research into the Iranian flight you'll learn that the vast majority of the evidence points toward a deliberate strike. There was nothing 'mistaken' about that attack. I'd urge readers of your horrendous post to do even a light amount of reading on the topic and you'll also come to the same conclusions.

As for Lockerbie carrying different civilians, this is irrelevant to this discussion.

Skylinehead wrote: »

Forgotton? It was one of the highest profile plane crashes in history, and still is. Obviously people are going to think about Lockerbie much more, because it happened in Scotland. Would you go on about people not musing over every Iraq suicide bombing in the same way as 7/7? It's human nature.

When I said forgotten, I didn't mean that it's not known, rather, that the same level of critique is not given to both tragedies.

And if your human nature regards Lockerbie citizens are more valuable than the citizens on the Iranian flight, then you're welcome to that conclusion. I, however, regard both with equal distaste, regardless of proximity.

Femme_Fatale · 21-12-2013 07:14PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

And if your human nature regards Lockerbie citizens are more valuable as the citizens on the Iranian flight

They didn't say that ffs. It's human nature to pay more attention to what is close to home, literally and metaphorically. I wouldn't expect people in e.g. India to pay much attention to Lockerbie.

clairefontaine · 21-12-2013 07:15PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

What on Earth are you talking about?

If you've done any level of research into the Iranian flight you'll learn that the vast majority of the evidence points toward a deliberate strike. There was nothing 'mistaken' about that attack. I'd urge readers of your horrendous post to do even a light amount of reading on the topic and you'll also come to the same conclusions.

As for Lockerbie carrying different civilians, this is irrelevant to this discussion.

When I said forgotten, I didn't mean that it's not known, rather, that the same level of critique is not given to both tragedies.

And if your human nature regards Lockerbie citizens are more valuable than the citizens on the Iranian flight, then you're welcome to that conclusion. I, however, regard both with equal distaste, regardless of proximity.

Basically what you are doing is rationalising a terrorist attack on civilians in airspace that had nothing to do with the USS Vincennes.

So they deserved it. Got it. Merry Christmas. Your point has been made loud and clear.

I'm sure the same goes for 911, the Madrid bombings, the London subway bombings, the attack on the the Beslan school, etc, IRA attacks, etc.

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 07:18PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

They didn't say that ffs. It's human nature to pay more attention to what is close to home, literally and metaphorically. I wouldn't expect people in e.g. India to pay much attention to Lockerbie.

clairefontaine wrote: »

Basically what you are doing is rationalising a terrorist attack on civilians in airspace that had nothing to do with the USS Vincennes.

So they deserved it. Got it. Merry Christmas. Your point has been made loud and clear.

Again, please stop talking about human nature. Speak for yourself because I don't share your human nature. Similarly, if Indians wish to play down Lockerbie in the same way we play down the Iranian flight, they're equally deserving of condemnation.

At least Claire Fontaine is consistent with illogical posts. Numerous times throughout this discussion, I referred to both attacks as catastrophes/tragedies. I'm discussing the political dimension to these catastrophes.

Skid X · 21-12-2013 07:20PM

Johnny Rotten from the Sex Pistols and his wife were booked on the flight, but didn't board it. They were charmed that day.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/johnny-missed-lockerbie-flight-6948512.html

In an interview with the Scottish Sunday Mirror, the Sex Pistols frontman - real name John Lydon - said: "Nora and I should have been dead.

"We only missed the flight because Nora hadn't packed in time. We had a big row and then took the next flight out.

"The minute we realised what happened, we just looked at each other and almost collapsed."

Femme_Fatale · 21-12-2013 07:36PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Again, please stop talking about human nature. Speak for yourself because I don't share your human nature. Similarly, if Indians wish to play down Lockerbie in the same way we play down the Iranian flight, they're equally deserving of condemnation.

It's not about "wishing" to play things down. It's about what people are aware of.
Your "compassion" is pretty hollow when all you seem to want to do is score petty political points.

wretcheddomain · 21-12-2013 07:51PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It's not about "wishing" to play things down. It's about what people are aware of.
Your "compassion" is pretty hollow when all you seem to want to do is score petty political points.

You can equally abhor a catastrophe and be in the realisation of its political consequences.

Elmer Blooker · 21-12-2013 07:55PM

I have a very good memory and this football match was on the telly that night.
The terrible atrocity actually happened while this was going on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wB7n2UwC6c

Mr.Crinklewood · 21-12-2013 07:56PM

Leave them to remember their loved ones in peace Sky News.

Femme_Fatale · 21-12-2013 08:01PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

You can equally abhor a catastrophe and be in the realisation of its political consequences.

Never said you can't.

JupiterKid · 21-12-2013 08:39PM

I remember seeing it on BBC news as if it were yesterday. Hard to believe its been 25 years. Lockerbie has never fully recovered from that tragedy.

HighClass · 21-12-2013 08:49PM

Frankie Boyle has a good joke about it.

It was a tragedy, but the residents did get some good luggage out of it!

wes · 21-12-2013 08:51PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Really. Lockerbie happenned in Scottish airspace and killed 11 people on the ground. What the hell does SCotland have to do with the USS Vincennes who MISTAKINGLY identified the Iranian flight as hostile.

There is some disagreement btw on the whole mistake thing. It seems that the Captain was found to be looking for a fight in some of the investigations, at best he was guilty of man slaughter, and he didn't spend any time in jail, which is to be expected.

Also, the American's awarded the Captain of the ship a bloody medal after what happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Rogers_III#Iran_Air_655

Rogers remained in command of the USS Vincennes until May 27, 1989.[13] In 1990, President George H. W. Bush awarded Capt. Rogers the Legion of Merit decoration "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the Commanding Officer of the Vincennes, and the citation made no mention of the downing of Iran Air 655.[14]

So the time frame he was awarded a medal for includes, when he "accidentally" killed a plane full of civilians. It seems to me that the American's went out of there way to rub salt in the wounds of the victims families, which was just a nasty (and stupid) thing to do imho.

None of that justifies the Lockerbie bombing, but again we have no clue if the Iranians were behind it. So let not down play another atrocity, just because the other one was committed by the US.

25th anniversary of Lockerbie atrocity today

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