Fair play to Peter Hitchens

Soft Falling Rain · 20-12-2013 07:39AM

jank wrote: »

Do the majority of drug users and abusers suffer from depression?

For those that drugs have become destructive in their lives, I would argue a sizable amount have a mental illness. For example, most homeless are suffering from addiction; they also would have been diagnosed with a mental illness.

jank · 20-12-2013 09:38AM

Nodin wrote: »

I'd be unable to comment on that. However, a large number do seem to be effectively "self medicating" for something and seem to do so from an early age. As a result, it's safe to say there are drives towards addiction rather than it being a simple issue of addictive subtsances and a weak willed populace.

So that would be a no then. I take it you are therefore in the Sam Harris camp of there being no free will.

jank · 20-12-2013 09:41AM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

For those that drugs have become destructive in their lives, I would argue a sizable amount have a mental illness. For example, most homeless are suffering from addiction; they also would have been diagnosed with a mental illness.

I suppose this is a chicken and egg scenario. Did they end up like that because of mental illness or did the abuse of drugs and drive to poverty/ill health lead to mental illness.

Soft Falling Rain · 20-12-2013 10:25AM

jank wrote: »

I suppose this is a chicken and egg scenario. Did they end up like that because of mental illness or did the abuse of drugs and drive to poverty/ill health lead to mental illness.

It can vary. Some who end up on the street did not end up there because of addiction, but will likely develop one to cope with the harsh realities of their situation.

Not everyone ends up homeless either because of mental health issues and contrary to popular belief, through no fault of their own.

mikom · 20-12-2013 11:48AM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

It does work better in America by light years...their drug abuse rates are 326 times lower than ours.
yes have some rehabilitation but repeat users who commit crimes must be locked away, then why not have more rehabilitation help in prisons? better there and get them off the streets to make the public safe

Will you ever go away with your bollox facts and figures...........

Despite tough anti-drug laws, a new survey shows the U.S. has the highest level of illegal drug use in the world.

The World Health Organization's survey of legal and illegal drug use in 17 countries, including the Netherlands and other countries with less stringent drug laws, shows Americans report the highest level of cocaine and marijuana use.

For example, Americans were four times more likely to report using cocaine in their lifetime than the next closest country, New Zealand (16% vs. 4%), (16% vs. 4%),

Marijuana use was more widely reported worldwide, and the U.S. also had the highest rate of use at 42.4% compared with 41.9% of New Zealanders.

In contrast, in the Netherlands, which has more liberal drug policies than the U.S., only 1.9% of people reported cocaine use and 19.8% reported marijuana use.

"Globally, drug use is not distributed evenly and is not simply related to drug policy, since countries with stringent user-level illegal drug policies did not have lower levels of use than countries with liberal ones," researcher Louisa Degenhardt of the University of New South Wales, Australia, and colleagues write in PLoS Medicine.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-leads-the-world-in-illegal-drug-use/

Drumpot · 20-12-2013 04:28PM

jank wrote: »

I suppose this is a chicken and egg scenario. Did they end up like that because of mental illness or did the abuse of drugs and drive to poverty/ill health lead to mental illness.

Could be a bit of both, some people are more vulnerable to becoming addicts. Different things can happen during their lives that make these addictions less or more prominent in their lives.

I don't think its a simple case of saying "well if they don't have drugs, they wont have an addiction problem". For some people, having access to drugs or alcohol has actually saved their lives (until they have been able to get the help they needed).
Think about it this way. Imagine you are getting little or no sleep. You are constantly thinking of things that upset or scare or just keep driving you mad. You cannot "switch" off or relax. Even when you do get a holiday from work you feel more pressure to relax that you find you just cant.

You have grown up around alcohol and/or "recreational" drugs and took them for leisure at times. But you realise that when you take them, you actually get some comfort and some sort of peace from the madness in your head every other time.
At that stage, you begun using drugs/alcohol for the same reason most other people do, just for fun and for a bit of crack. But then you find that when you are not taking one of these drugs your life feels hopeless. You feel alone because you spend so much time in your own head, thinking of things that upset you so much, but nobody else knows or understands what you are going through.

You realise that this drug is causing you more problems and its beginning to change the person you are, but the thought of not getting this relief (through drugs) is more worrying then the thought of life without the drug.
You begin to pull away from social events and find yourself asked to less events with your friends. Some of them just don't want to be around you and anyways, you are convinced they are better off without you because you are so full of self loathing as a result of the person you are becoming.

You find that your closer friends and family are losing patience with you so you become defencive. They say you are rude, you are just frustrated that they don't understand how horrible and lonely you feel. This makes you feel more isolated, if the ones closest to you don't understand you, how can you feel comfortable talking to them? The only time you get some relief from the pain of it all is when you take this drug. It doesn't make your life perfect, but it takes away the pain of life, the pain of isolation and gives you something to look forward to in life.

Now, its easy to say that the drugs have just made the persons life worse and eventually that is very true. However, if the person felt this way and didn't have any relief at all, there is a good chance that they might commit suicide before anybody ever knew there was a problem. I am not advocating the use of drugs , I am simply saying that this is not as simplistic as saying "take away the drugs and the problem doesn't exist".

I could go on, but I think the point is clear. People do not just "become a junky/bum". There are so many different ways people can lose themselves to drugs (including alcohol) and in some cases its that they are more susceptible and others it might be their environment (or both).

Nodin · 20-12-2013 04:32PM

jank wrote: »

So that would be a no then. I take it you are therefore in the Sam Harris camp of there being no free will.

Don't please try to simplify my answers to make them fit your limited view.

Wotsername · 21-12-2013 12:42AM

This is such a complex issue. There are lots of subjective opinions based on experience, academia, statistics, the odd article/book read and points of view coming from every aspect of society (each equally deserving of consideration) being thrown into one debate here.

How can we debate the best way for the judicial system to deal with a problem without defining what it is? Define addiction?
Then try to differentiate between addicts and junkies, ie: He/She is a scumbag drug user who not also uses addiction to deal with life but also as an excuse and has been caught again. And, He/She is a decent functioning drug user, who has been using drugs in order to deal with life for many years, (and still manages to maintain their job/dignity/family/self.

Not to mention all those who fall somewhere in between.
I personally have met and known many of all the above.

Apologies for bad spelling, punctuation and formatting. I wasn't in that day (Your Honor)

jank · 21-12-2013 02:29AM

Nodin wrote: »

Don't please try to simplify my answers to make them fit your limited view.

If you don't believe in free will than say so.

Wotsername · 21-12-2013 03:05AM

jank wrote: »

If you don't believe in free will than say so.

Yes agreed.
So how do we start teaching children an alternative way to deal with life, and how our brains/minds are wired to deal with it?

Nodin · 21-12-2013 05:57AM

jank wrote: »

If you don't believe in free will than say so.

Of course there's free will in certain situations, but in others - due to social and psychological factors - its much reduced.

Soft Falling Rain · 21-12-2013 09:50AM

jank wrote: »

If you don't believe in free will than say so.

The world would be a much better place if we all could own our choices. But that's not the world we live in.

DrumSteve · 21-12-2013 11:11AM

Not as good as his brother.

stpaddy99 · 22-12-2013 07:25PM

Weve tried the liberal approach and our drug use is 326 times worse that America
I REPEAT OUR DRUG USE IS 326 TIMES WORSE THAN AMERICA, A FACT MANY HERE IGNORE

Nodin · 22-12-2013 07:46PM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

Weve tried the liberal approach and our drug use is 326 times worse that America
I REPEAT OUR DRUG USE IS 326 TIMES WORSE THAN AMERICA, A FACT MANY HERE IGNORE

You can use the caps lock all day long. You'll still be wrong at the end of it.

When did we try the "liberal approach"?

Pug160 · 22-12-2013 09:09PM

Peter doesn't have any of the charm or charisma that his brother had, but that doesn't mean he's not intelligent.

ElvisChrist6 · 22-12-2013 09:46PM

God, I love when toffee-nosed scumbag cúnts who have no idea about addictions or addicts like Hitchens can tell an addict objectively that they are wrong about drugs and their addiction.

I honestly can't believe he can be so boorish and pig headed that he KNOWS he is right about this when he has no experience either with addicts or addiction more importantly. How can he honestly think he's the all knowing oracle of this? A brutish moron, just like his brother.

Wattle · 22-12-2013 09:54PM

ElvisChrist6 wrote: »

God, I love when toffee-nosed scumbag cúnts who have no idea about addictions or addicts like Hitchens can tell an addict objectively that they are wrong about drugs and their addiction.

I honestly can't believe he can be so boorish and pig headed that he KNOWS he is right about this when he has no experience either with addicts or addiction more importantly. How can he honestly think he's the all knowing oracle of this? A brutish moron, just like his brother.

Ah here now. I disagree completely with Peter Hitchens on this but his brother although controversial was spot on about a lot of things.

ElvisChrist6 · 22-12-2013 11:55PM

Wattle wrote: »

Ah here now. I disagree completely with Peter Hitchens on this but his brother although controversial was spot on about a lot of things.

I agree he had a lot of things right, along with a lot of things wrong; in my opinion, a lot more things. However, what I can't abide is the lack of humility to ever consider he might not be the most genius person on the planet. Having said that, I am a fan of Richard Dawkins who can appear that way, though moreso his works on evolutionary biology and philosophy than the God Delusion stuff. I feel like Hitchens was a little too trusting of his belief that he was fantastic and always right.

stpaddy99 · 22-12-2013 11:59PM

ElvisChrist6 wrote: »

God, I love when toffee-nosed scumbag cúnts who have no idea about addictions or addicts like Hitchens can tell an addict objectively that they are wrong about drugs and their addiction.

I honestly can't believe he can be so boorish and pig headed that he KNOWS he is right about this when he has no experience either with addicts or addiction more importantly. How can he honestly think he's the all knowing oracle of this? A brutish moron, just like his brother.

you call him boorish pig headed scumbag C*nt but the only one being abusive is you...Good own goal pal

stpaddy99 · 23-12-2013 12:01AM

Nodin wrote: »

You can use the caps lock all day long. You'll still be wrong at the end of it.

When did we try the "liberal approach"?

for decades...the police turn a blind eye to the vast majority of drug users already and even drug pushers and instead go for the big dealers, or attempt to..this is why our drug use and abuse is 326 times worse than in the USA
never mind ignore the millions on drugs and talk about more important things like caps lock, pathetic

ElvisChrist6 · 23-12-2013 12:30AM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

you call him boorish pig headed scumbag C*nt but the only one being abusive is you...Good own goal pal

I didn't call him abusive. I may be abusive, but I am at least not pig-headed, should someone argue against me, I take it on board. WHen I'm wrong I accept it. He's an offensive person, so I don't see the harm in calling him a cúnt. No hypocrisy there.

Nodin · 23-12-2013 01:42AM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

for decades...the police turn a blind eye to the vast majority of drug users already and even drug pushers and instead go for the big dealers, or attempt to..this is why our drug use and abuse is 326 times worse than in the USA
never mind ignore the millions on drugs and talk about more important things like caps lock, pathetic

There's only 4 million in this country. Are we all junkies now?

We have never had a liberal policy in this country.

Your talk re the US is nonsense.

getzls · 23-12-2013 03:44AM

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

For those that drugs have become destructive in their lives, I would argue a sizable amount have a mental illness. For example, most homeless are suffering from addiction; they also would have been diagnosed with a mental illness.

Long term alcohol abuse will do weird things to your mind yes.
I speak as an alcoholic without a mental illness.

Hard for me to label it as an illness as such.

Of course if i start drinking,at first i love that drink.

Then as it gets a grip on me i might only like it.

Then i hate it.

But by then i must have it.

stpaddy99 · 23-12-2013 05:05AM

Nodin wrote: »

There's only 4 million in this country. Are we all junkies now?

We have never had a liberal policy in this country.

Your talk re the US is nonsense.

why are you lying? the US drug abuse IS 326 lower rate than the UK- FACT

this is due to the lax policies we have on drugs abuse.
we let drug dealers walk the streets and make a living off drugs in their tens of thousands across every town in the UK and Ireland. It is even worse in the UK.
It is a disaster. innocent members of society have to put up with these drug takers, stealing from them, damaging their belongings, ruining their homes, bringing other fellow thieving violent drug takers into their homes and lives....ruining their personal and professional lives. the government must arrest the majority of them to protect the innocent people in society. further they must incorporate rehabilitation into the prison system too. In some cases where its first offences then yes a slap on the wrists plus rehabilitation. better still get rehab in prior to this getting out of control. this is not easy. people are often in denial. however most drug users end up stealing or selling drugs to afford their own drugs. no doubt they even get ripped off buying pretend drugs full of baking powder. the first rule is protect the public not the criminal. also you can only help people who help themselves

brummytom · 23-12-2013 05:26AM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

why are you lying? the US drug abuse IS 326 lower rate than the UK- FACT

this is due to the lax policies we have on drugs abuse.
we let drug dealers walk the streets and make a living off drugs in their tens of thousands across every town in the UK and Ireland. It is even worse in the UK.
It is a disaster. innocent members of society have to put up with these drug takers, stealing from them, damaging their belongings, ruining their homes, bringing other fellow thieving violent drug takers into their homes and lives....ruining their personal and professional lives. the government must arrest the majority of them to protect the innocent people in society. further they must incorporate rehabilitation into the prison system too. In some cases where its first offences then yes a slap on the wrists plus rehabilitation. better still get rehab in prior to this getting out of control. this is not easy. people are often in denial. however most drug users end up stealing or selling drugs to afford their own drugs. no doubt they even get ripped off buying pretend drugs full of baking powder. the first rule is protect the public not the criminal. also you can only help people who help themselves

You've stated this figure of the US' drug abuse rates (whatever that actually means - how can you have reliable statistics on something that is illegal, and therefore, underground? Are the figures based on crime rates, numbers of drug users seeking treatment?) being '326 times lower than the UK'.

Where's this statistic from? Apologies if you've already posted a source, I may have missed it.

AngeGal · 23-12-2013 05:31AM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

why are you lying? the US drug abuse IS 326 lower rate than the UK- FACT

this is due to the lax policies we have on drugs abuse.
we let drug dealers walk the streets and make a living off drugs in their tens of thousands across every town in the UK and Ireland. It is even worse in the UK.
It is a disaster. innocent members of society have to put up with these drug takers, stealing from them, damaging their belongings, ruining their homes, bringing other fellow thieving violent drug takers into their homes and lives....ruining their personal and professional lives. the government must arrest the majority of them to protect the innocent people in society. further they must incorporate rehabilitation into the prison system too. In some cases where its first offences then yes a slap on the wrists plus rehabilitation. better still get rehab in prior to this getting out of control. this is not easy. people are often in denial. however most drug users end up stealing or selling drugs to afford their own drugs. no doubt they even get ripped off buying pretend drugs full of baking powder. the first rule is protect the public not the criminal. also you can only help people who help themselves

Ireland isn't in the UK - FACT. However, please provide a source/evidence that drug abuse in the UK is 326 time worse than the states as I'm certain that's incorrect.

I think there's a lot of merit to decriminalising all drugs as Portugal done over ten years ago, a quick google will offer a huge amount of evidence as to how successful it's been there. Our current policies certainly aren't working in any case. Aside from the pros/cons to your suggestion of locking up the majority of drug users, there's one insurmountable problem, we don't have sufficient prison space/the cash to build such space and maintain it.

Thanks very much · 23-12-2013 05:45AM

Robroy36 wrote: »

Was anyone else watching Newsnight last night? Peter Hitchens and Matthew Perry had a tête-à-tête over, among other things, the current trend in society to absolve addicts of all responsibility by classing them as "ill" or "disabled". This particular line really struck a cord with me - certainly last week the debate about "addicts" terrorising people on the LUAS is one aspect of the sickening decline that we see on our own shores.

What do you think After Hours - is Hitchens right? Are we too quick to look past the person and classify any poor decisions people make in life as part of some sort of nebulous medical condition?

http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/life/celebrity-life/matthew-perry-in-heated-newsnight-drugs-debate-1.166399

Dope alert dope alert dope alert.

Nodin · 23-12-2013 07:42AM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

why are you (.......) people who help themselves

This is a mostly Irish board, btw.

You've produced no credible data.

Mr.David · 23-12-2013 09:31AM

brummytom wrote: »

Where's this statistic from? Apologies if you've already posted a source, I may have missed it.

No need to apologise, he has quoted no source as there is no source, because its absolute utter nonsense!

Fair play to Peter Hitchens

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