Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Fair play to Peter Hitchens

123468

Comments

  • #152
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Mr.David wrote: »
    No excuse in Ireland regarding education.

    Its so easy to blame 'society' for everything, ignoring personal responsibility and choice.

    It's so easy to bandy about words like "choice" and "responsibility" when it comes to addiction. Not so easy when you're an actual addict though.


  • #153
    Mr.David
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    old hippy wrote: »
    It's so easy to bandy about words like "choice" and "responsibility" when it comes to addiction. Not so easy when you're an actual addict though.

    Of coiurse yeah, but tell me, how do you become an addict in the first place?

    Surely by making a choice to take drugs?


  • #154
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Mr.David wrote: »
    Of coiurse yeah, but tell me, how do you become an addict in the first place?

    Surely by making a choice to take drugs?


    Simplistic crap.


  • #155
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    joseph brand wrote: »
    "Oh he's depressed?" "Why doesn't he just cop on and get on with his life?" "Bloody spongers." Every conservative ever.

    Yes, and we all know all blacks are lazy, all Irish are drunks and all Nigerians are scammers…...:rolleyes:


  • #156
    Robroy36
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Robroy36


    Nodin wrote: »
    Simplistic crap.

    Quite a temper on you Nodin.

    Addicts have to make a concerted, selfish, self centered decision to abuse drugs. Simple fact, plenty of people with vested intrests will tell you otherswise but they are liars.


  • Advertisement
  • #157
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Mr.David wrote: »
    Of coiurse yeah, but tell me, how do you become an addict in the first place?

    Surely by making a choice to take drugs?

    The thing about you and Peter Hitchens is you are basically saying not to rescue someone in a well because they 'should have been more careful'. This attitude reflects a more serious problem in the person holding it.


  • #158
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Robroy36 wrote: »
    Quite a temper on you Nodin.

    Addicts have to make a concerted, selfish, self centered decision to abuse drugs. Simple fact, plenty of people with vested intrests will tell you otherswise but they are liars.

    No pre-judging there.

    You never got back to me on this.....
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88051294&postcount=58


  • #159
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    old hippy wrote: »
    It's so easy to bandy about words like "choice" and "responsibility" when it comes to addiction. Not so easy when you're an actual addict though.


    Yes, because drugs magically find their way into peoples bodies…
    Tell me how does that work?


  • #160
    Drumpot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Mr.David wrote: »
    Of coiurse yeah, but tell me, how do you become an addict in the first place?

    Surely by making a choice to take drugs?

    I wont bother responding to anybody who has the stupidity to state that people who take drugs are bad . . (I know that wasn't you, just refuse to repost them).

    A person is born with certain traits or psychological wiring that they cant control. Depending on the environment they live, these traits can remain dormant or they can play a huge role in their lives. If you think about most cancers, most people can relate to the idea that if you catch cancer early, you stand a better chance of overcoming the disease. The same can be said of mental illness's.

    People don't like the concept of "handicapped" people being used in the same context of addiction mainly because they have this misguided view that one has a choice, the other simply chooses to make their lives tough. It stems from the empathetic feeling many of us get when we see somebody in a wheelchair or in obvious physical suffering. Its not the same when the person looks physically fine, but the trouble is going on in their head.

    What is funny is that the word handicapped means: (of a person) having a condition that markedly restricts their ability to function physically, mentally, or socially. But some of the people attacking "addiction" are only focusing on the physical action of the addict, without any understanding (or care) of the social/mental aspects of the condition.

    Its like when some people think that people who suffer from depression should just snap out of it and pull themselves together. Its the self absorbed or self centred nature of people to only connect or understand something they can physically see or that they themselves experience.

    Incidentally, people can be addicted to sex, computer games or other things. These people would be potentially just as susceptible to drugs and alcohol if the rights conditions arose.


  • #161
    Mr.David
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    The thing about you and Peter Hitchens is you are basically saying not to rescue someone in a well because they 'should have been more careful'. This attitude reflects a more serious problem in the person holding it.

    Please, show me where I said or supported that view?! My point is that its easy to deflect blame from the individual to society as a whole. I NEVER said that someone suffering from addiction should not be helped.


  • Advertisement
  • #162
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    Mr.David wrote: »
    No excuse in Ireland regarding education.

    Its so easy to blame 'society' for everything, ignoring personal responsibility and choice.

    I'm not saying it's impossible for someone from a poor background to succeed but the odds are stacked against them much more than people from higher income brackets.

    Without proper supports a lot of children living with disadvantage simply don’t have the resources they need to get an adequate education.

    If you live in a disadvantaged area your choices are limited. Unemployment is highest in disadvantaged areas. It's that much harder to climb out of these traps if you live in a certain postcode. Into this void comes criminality and drug abuse.


  • #163
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Wattle wrote: »
    I'm not saying it's impossible for someone from a poor background to succeed but the odds are stacked against them much more than people from higher income brackets.

    Without proper supports a lot of children living with disadvantage simply don’t have the resources they need to get an adequate education.

    If you live in a disadvantaged area your choices are limited. Unemployment is highest in disadvantaged areas. It's that much harder to climb out of these traps if you live in a certain postcode. Into this void comes criminality and drug abuse.

    Why did unemployment stay high during our 2 decade boom?


  • #164
    Mr.David
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    Drumpot wrote: »

    A person is born with certain traits or psychological wiring that they cant control. Depending on the environment they live, these traits can remain dormant or they can play a huge role in their lives.

    I agree with you in that people can have a genetic predisposition to addiction, which is hugely unfortunate of course. However, no-one is actually addicted to heroin until they choose to use the drug.

    You cannot compare heroin addiction to being addicted to something like food/sex/internet etc as each of those are usually non destructive activities that can become an addiction for someone with that predisposition.

    Heroin however is not a non destructive substance and anyone that takes it has made a choice and should have accepted the risks involved. But hey, thats not very warm and cuddly is it so lets just blame some nameless/faceless group called 'society'.


  • #165
    Mr.David
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Why did unemployment stay high during our 2 decade boom?

    It didnt :confused:


  • #166
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Why did unemployment stay high during our 2 decade boom?

    Because the boom never reached the type of areas I'm talking about. If we have another boom it still won't.


  • #167
    Robroy36
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 224 ✭✭Robroy36


    Nodin wrote: »
    No pre-judging there.

    You never got back to me on this.....
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88051294&postcount=58

    The Dublin accent is no more linked to ignorance than Wolf Club originally insinuated Tories are detached from reality.


  • #168
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Mr.David wrote: »
    It didnt :confused:

    I was quoting somebody who said it did in "disadvantaged areas".


  • #169
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Robroy36 wrote: »
    The Dublin accent is no more linked to ignorance than Wolf Club originally insinuated Tories are detached from reality.


    Then why did you use that phrasing? What were you trying to convey?


  • #170
    Drumpot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Mr.David wrote: »
    I agree with you in that people can have a genetic predisposition to addiction, which is hugely unfortunate of course. However, no-one is actually addicted to heroin until they choose to use the drug.

    You cannot compare heroin addiction to being addicted to something like food/sex/internet etc as each of those are usually non destructive activities that can become an addiction for someone with that predisposition.

    Heroin however is not a non destructive substance and anyone that takes it has made a choice and should have accepted the risks involved. But hey, thats not very warm and cuddly is it so lets just blame some nameless/faceless group called 'society'.



    I wasn't speaking of heroin abuse, I was speaking purely about addiction. In saying that, I don't really care what the addiction is, its just different levels of destruction and the only thing people who don't suffer this trait worry about is how this destruction might impact them.

    People may have differing opinions or sympathy to certain addicts depending on how it might effect them personally. But they are all savage compulsions to do something harmful to that person, compulsions that the average person doesn't get.


  • #171
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Mr.David wrote: »
    Of coiurse yeah, but tell me, how do you become an addict in the first place?

    Surely by making a choice to take drugs?

    There can be a number of factors leading to the taking of drugs, depression, abuse, peer pressure, socially disadvantages and so forth. Nobody actually sits down and goes "hey, I think I'll become a drug addict today!"


  • Advertisement
  • #172
    Wolf Club
    Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Wolf Club


    Robroy36 wrote: »
    The Dublin accent is no more linked to ignorance than Wolf Club originally insinuated Tories are detached from reality.

    I wasn't referring to all Tories, I was referring to Hitchens specifically. Anyone can get wrapped up in a political and social ideology and completely refuse to accept any other school of thought and, in my opinion, Hitchens is a perfect example of this. Call me ignorant if you want but the rhetoric you've been spouting about all addicts being selfish and completely to blame for their own situation will make me pay little heed.


  • #173
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    How I yearn for the days when a left handed ciatog was beaten by the headmaster until he learned to use his right hand.....................

    "There's something wrong with you, boy, so I'll punish you until you are cured"
    .
    .
    .


  • #174
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    old hippy wrote: »
    There can be a number of factors leading to the taking of drugs, depression, abuse, peer pressure, socially disadvantages and so forth. Nobody actually sits down and goes "hey, I think I'll become a drug addict today!"

    Indeed, only a few years back I veered in the direction of drinking excessively during one of my stints of depression. Luckily it didn't in the end but it could have very easily became a major problem. It wouldn't have been out of the question for me to turn to other drugs to numb my mind if an offer arose or if I came from a slightly different background.


  • #175
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Indeed, only a few years back I veered in the direction of drinking excessively during one of my stints of depression. Luckily it didn't in the end but it could have very easily became a major problem. It wouldn't have been out of the question for me to turn to other drugs to numb my mind if an offer arose or if I came from a slightly different background.

    So in essence you agree with Hitchens in that drugs that are harmful should be deterred in society. If people have no free will when it comes to this stuff then such things should be banned, right? I think people are arguing both ways here without even realising it.


  • #176
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    jank wrote: »
    So in essence you agree with Hitchens in that drugs that are harmful should be deterred in society. If people have no free will when it comes to this stuff then such things should be banned, right? I think people are arguing both ways here without even realising it.

    Criminalization doesn't work though. I wouldn't want alcohol banned even if it can be harmful to society because the only thing you would do is push it underground. Once it goes underground, it makes it a hell of a lot more unlikely for addicts to seek treatment or assistance.


  • #177
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Criminalization doesn't work though. I wouldn't want alcohol banned even if it can be harmful to society because the only thing you would do is push it underground. Once it goes underground, it makes it a hell of a lot more unlikely for addicts to seek treatment or assistance.

    Again you are arguing two sides of the same coin. Even in your post you admit that if drugs were 'offered' to you, then you would have felt due to your depression unable to resist the temptation* to numb your mind further. Surely that alone is an arguement to keep drugs illegal and away from mass public consumption?

    *I don’t really agree with the total abdication of free will either or that addiction is a disease in the same sense as cancer or aids. Addiction is mental issue rather than a physiological issue


  • #178
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Again you are arguing two sides of the same coin. Even in your post you admit that if drugs were 'offered' to you, then you would have felt due to your depression unable to resist the temptation* to numb your mind further. Surely that alone is an arguement to keep drugs illegal and away from mass public consumption?

    Is the majority of the public subject to depression and unable to resist a similar temptation?


  • #179
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    Is the majority of the public subject to depression and unable to resist a similar temptation?

    Do the majority of drug users and abusers suffer from depression?


  • #180
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Do the majority of drug users and abusers suffer from depression?

    I'd be unable to comment on that. However, a large number do seem to be effectively "self medicating" for something and seem to do so from an early age. As a result, it's safe to say there are drives towards addiction rather than it being a simple issue of addictive subtsances and a weak willed populace.


  • Advertisement
  • #181
    stpaddy99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭stpaddy99


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Criminalization doesn't work though. I wouldn't want alcohol banned even if it can be harmful to society because the only thing you would do is push it underground. Once it goes underground, it makes it a hell of a lot more unlikely for addicts to seek treatment or assistance.

    It does work better in America by light years...their drug abuse rates are 326 times lower than ours.
    yes have some rehabilitation but repeat users who commit crimes must be locked away, then why not have more rehabilitation help in prisons? better there and get them off the streets to make the public safe


Advertisement
Advertisement