Fair play to Peter Hitchens

Corkfeen · 19-12-2013 01:10AM

UK has a long history of conservative governments so I wouldn't exactly classify them as exceedingly liberal. Also, David Nutt got fired from a government position a couple of years back for saying that certain drugs aren't particularly dangerous.

Portugal for example would make far greater sense for comparison sake.As a result of decriminalization, drug use did not rise and users seeking treatment increased.

Jimoslimos · 19-12-2013 01:19AM

Hitchens was a bully in that clip. I don't remember him once answering any of the points made by the Baroness, but instead focused on targeting the weak debating skills of Matthew Perry.

In the other clip posted with Russell Brand, Brand was right on the money with the following description of Peter Hitchens

I don't even think you're ignorant, I think you're innocent, like a peculiar child

Drumpot · 19-12-2013 11:00AM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

the first priority if the safety of the public , get the drug takers and pushers off the streets...then treat them behind closed doors...no doubt drug rehabilitation could take place in the prisons....clearly letting drug takers walk the streets especially those who go to crime to pay for their addiction, is dangerous and has failed as a policy. the repeat offending rate is off the scale, the drug problems is 300 times worse now in the UK than the USA thanks to this mindless liberal ill thought through policy

Throwing an alocohlic or drug taker (don't care about dealers, they are not comparable to addicts) into a jail may actually cause more damage then good and will potentially put the safety of the public in danger even more. A rehabilitated addict is less likely to become more violent, whereas an addict who goes into prison and gets zero rehabilitation is more likely to come out even more damaged and as such an even bigger threat to the general public.

In short, a recovered victim of addiction is a better servant to society and less of a problem then one who has gone in and out of prison and comes out in an even more messed up way. So as a society do we decide is vengeance or feeling of "justice" (ie you commit a crime and goto prison) more important then trying to rehabilitate an addict and try to reintegrate then into being a productive person in society.

Drumpot · 19-12-2013 11:03AM

SamHarris wrote: »

Why does one blanket statement have to be true? Why would you not think habitual drug use is predicated on the same rules all behavior is - for some people it is the result of an untreated mental illness, others the result of poor choices or even just immoral ones?

Normal people choose when they want to take drugs/alcohol and most normal people stop taking these drugs when it starts effecting their life negatively.

Addicts feel like slaves to the drug and act in a manner that just looks selfish to the onlooker. Its in truth a savage mental illness that is extremely unpopular to have and that garnishes little sympathy from an ill informed public. unfortunately, the reason Hitchens gets to spout crap on tv is because many people share his misguided views on this topic.

camel jockey · 19-12-2013 11:10AM

Whose fault is it that a junkie started taking the drugs? Society? ****ty parenting? Hardly...of course junkies are to blame for becoming junkies - no one forced them to take the drugs. For all the junkies out there, there are 100 people who had the same upbringing and never touched drugs.

Drumpot · 19-12-2013 11:17AM

camel jockey wrote: »

Whose fault is it that a junkie started taking the drugs? Society? ****ty parenting? Hardly...of course junkies are to blame for becoming junkies - no one forced them to take the drugs. For all the junkies out there, there are 100 people who had the same upbringing and never touched drugs.

Whose fault is it that a person is born with mental or physical illness? Does that mean as a society any person who is born with a disadvantage should be left fend for themselves?

Incidentally, your final sentence highlights exactly the point on addiction. It doesn't effect everybody. You could do worse then try and get some education on the affliction of addiction before commenting any further.

Mr.David · 19-12-2013 11:20AM

Drumpot wrote: »

Whose fault is it that a person is born with mental or physical illness? Does that mean as a society any person who is born with a disadvantage should be left fend for themselves?

Addiction and disability are hardly comparable are they?!! Even for AH thats a stretch.

You are either disabled or you are not. You are not born an addict, you chose to drink/take drugs or whatever. To compare the two is nonsensical at best

Dravokivich · 19-12-2013 11:24AM

Temptamperu wrote: »

Really? and where did you go to medical school? 10% of people are addicts before they pick up drugs or drink. Without their fix the go through some horrific bodily pain and the shock can kill you.
It might not be a disease but its a medical problem and not a police matter.

It truly is not a disease or a disability. I don't need medical training to know that. You don't catch addiction. The issues you refer to about abstinence from heavily prolonged usage of Alcohol or Drugs, is due to the body developing a dependency on those substances. But that doesn't make it a disease or a disability. Stating it's neither, doesn't make it any less of an issue either. People who turn to these substances as a form of escapism, or who unwittingly develop dependency on them for whatever reason need support to alleviate such issues. But that doesn't make it a disease, or a disability.

camel jockey wrote: »

Whose fault is it that a junkie started taking the drugs? Society? ****ty parenting? Hardly...of course junkies are to blame for becoming junkies - no one forced them to take the drugs. For all the junkies out there, there are 100 people who had the same upbringing and never touched drugs.

The act of being a drug user, doesn't necessarily make someone a bad person.

camel jockey · 19-12-2013 11:35AM

Drumpot wrote: »

Whose fault is it that a person is born with mental or physical illness? Does that mean as a society any person who is born with a disadvantage should be left fend for themselves?

Incidentally, your final sentence highlights exactly the point on addiction. It doesn't effect everybody. You could do worse then try and get some education on the affliction of addiction before commenting any further.

Would you ever cop yourself on.

Complete cop out to take responsibility away from the junkies. As for your comparison to people with mental or physical illness? Contemptible. No doubt you'll bring up eugenics and the Nazis next.

camel jockey · 19-12-2013 11:37AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

The act of being a drug user, doesn't necessarily make someone a bad person.

I would respectfully disagree. I understand this goes against much of the prevailing opinion in AH, but that is my opinion.

Corkfeen · 19-12-2013 11:59AM

camel jockey wrote: »

I would respectfully disagree. I understand this goes against much of the prevailing opinion in AH, but that is my opinion.

How exactly does it automatically make them a bad person? Addiction is somewhat of a mental illness btw, even a recovered addict has to deal with addiction for the remainder of their lives.

There's also in all likelihood a genetic link so a person could be born predisposed to addiction.

camel jockey · 19-12-2013 12:05PM

Corkfeen wrote: »

How exactly does it automatically make them a bad person? Addiction is somewhat of a mental illness btw, even a recovered addict has to deal with addiction for the remainder of their lives.

There's also in all likelihood a genetic link so a person could be born predisposed to addiction.

Read the comment I responded to. No mention of addiction.

Corkfeen · 19-12-2013 12:10PM

camel jockey wrote: »

Read the comment I responded to. No mention of addiction.

So all drug users are bad people? Well that's a fairly idiotic view.Telling me that anyone you know who have done drugs are automatically bad people?

camel jockey · 19-12-2013 12:13PM

Corkfeen wrote: »

So all drug users are bad people? Well that's a fairly idiotic view.Telling me that anyone you know who have done drugs are automatically bad people?

Yes, I believe that drug usage makes someone a bad person.

Corkfeen · 19-12-2013 12:14PM

camel jockey wrote: »

Yes, I believe that drug usage makes someone a bad person.

Could you elaborate?

BillyMitchel · 19-12-2013 12:16PM

bootybouncer wrote: »

Harsh.......................he seems to have come through the worst part of his addictions

Nobody is worthwhile on coke ...............................

Nice big line you done yourself there!

camel jockey · 19-12-2013 12:18PM

Corkfeen wrote: »

Could you elaborate?

What's to elaborate? I disagree with drug use.

Corkfeen · 19-12-2013 12:22PM

camel jockey wrote: »

What's to elaborate? I disagree with drug use.

Which is lovely. But how does this make a person a bad person? For example, I have smoked weed in the past but have also collected plenty for charities, treat people well and I'm fairly certain nobody considers me a bad person. So explain, how am I a bad person?

Generally a person who disagrees with drug use does not consider users to be bad people. It's highly unusual.

Skylinehead · 19-12-2013 12:39PM

camel jockey wrote: »

Yes, I believe that drug usage makes someone a bad person.

How so? Disregarding whether you agree with it or not, because it's irrelevant, but how does it make them bad?

stoneill · 19-12-2013 12:46PM

Baroness Meacher is a bit of alright - if you are on drugs!

Wattle · 19-12-2013 01:04PM

camel jockey wrote: »

Whose fault is it that a junkie started taking the drugs? Society? ****ty parenting? Hardly...of course junkies are to blame for becoming junkies - no one forced them to take the drugs. For all the junkies out there, there are 100 people who had the same upbringing and never touched drugs.

Actually those are two very good reasons. If you come from a disadvantaged area and you can't afford to go on to higher education and you can't get a job because of where you live and basically have no hope then taking drugs to numb the pain and hopelessness will start to look like an option.

Likewise with ****ty parenting. Who your parents are and what they do has a huge influence on how you see life.

old hippy · 19-12-2013 01:18PM

camel jockey wrote: »

What's to elaborate? I disagree with drug use.

Is every person who takes drugs "bad" and does that apply to prescription drugs and alcohol?

And can you define "bad"?

wandatowell · 19-12-2013 01:20PM

bootybouncer wrote: »

Nobody is worthwhile on coke ...............................

WRONG.

Bowie was class on coke.

old hippy · 19-12-2013 01:21PM

stpaddy99 wrote: »

Im not a troll Im just giving you original thought which you will of course not get on the bbc anymore

Oddly, that's what all the right posters say on the BBCs "Have your say".

And it's complete bobbins, of course.

old hippy · 19-12-2013 01:22PM

wandatowell wrote: »

WRONG.

Bowie was class on coke.

He was strung out, paranoid and then there was that dodgy salute in Victoria Sation. Great music, mind.

Mr.David · 19-12-2013 01:26PM

Wattle wrote: »

If you come from a disadvantaged area and you can't afford to go on to higher education and you can't get a job because of where you live and basically have no hope then taking drugs to numb the pain and hopelessness will start to look like an option.

Likewise with ****ty parenting. Who your parents are and what they do has a huge influence on how you see life.

No excuse in Ireland regarding education.

Its so easy to blame 'society' for everything, ignoring personal responsibility and choice.

Corkfeen · 19-12-2013 01:29PM

Mr.David wrote: »

No excuse in Ireland regarding education.

Its so easy to blame 'society' for everything, ignoring personal responsibility and choice.

Plenty of underprivileged areas in terms of education in Ireland.

googled eyes · 19-12-2013 01:35PM

If I said what I thought of Hitchens I'd get banned.

Here's another debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMU77TwYM0

Ash.J.Williams · 19-12-2013 01:37PM

If someone commits a crime then they should be tried for the crime ...and whatever substances they are on should not be taken into account, unless they are on prescribed psychactive drugs....sickens me everytime a criminal uses drugs to get a lesser sentence.

Mr.David · 19-12-2013 01:40PM

Corkfeen wrote: »

Plenty of underprivileged areas in terms of education in Ireland.

You mean areas where the majority are comparatively less educated? Of course, but why? Its not because of lack of opportunity or money, not in Ireland. It's cultural. Society isn't responsible for the poor decisions of individuals.

Fair play to Peter Hitchens

Comments