Gerry Adams : Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?

Santa Cruz · 15-12-2013 10:54AM

The deal Redmond had negotiated meant that Dublin would have more territory than was subsequently obtained in the Treaty. If the British had kept their promises and introduced Home Rule we would be all happy little subjects of the Queen and treated the same way that the Scottish and Welsh are. It is unlikely that Sinn Fein would have made the advances they did in 1918. But once again of course Britain reneged on its promise.
I can't see a situation where we would have moved from Home Rule to a Republic. Although if we did and remained in the Commonwealth for the sake of Unionist feelings it wouldn't have been the worst decision.
Of course we would have supplied thousands of troops to the WW2 war effort with the resulting deaths on battlefield and bombing by Germany

guinnessdrinker · 15-12-2013 11:00AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Didn't Irish Statesmen like John Redmond and John Dillon achieve Home Rule, are they just written off, Parnell etc. The 16 crowd as the Blueshirts would say were a motley crew with no mandate.

It's only when the Brits started executing them that opinion shifted.

Yeah what a motley crew of poets, playwrights, writers, lawyers and teachers.

Tramps Like Us · 15-12-2013 11:07AM

Unionists brought the gun into Urish politics.
Doubt lord sutch would have been too impressed with Parnell, especially his land league activities.

LordSutch · 15-12-2013 11:08AM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

If the British had kept their promises and introduced Home Rule we would be all happy little subjects of the Queen and treated the same way that the Scottish and Welsh are.

Have the Scottish & the Welsh done so badly since 1922?

Santa Cruz wrote: »

It is unlikely that Sinn Fein would have made the advances they did in 1918. But once again of course Britain reneged on its promise.

Was not the promise delayed due to WWI and a hostile (to home rule) North?

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I can't see a situation where we would have moved from Home Rule to a Republic. Although if we did and remained in the Commonwealth for the sake of Unionist feelings it wouldn't have been the worst decision.

Well if there's one thing that was a really badly thought out (not thought out) was us leaving the Commonwealth, and indeed if we rejoined it might indeed open the way for a long overdue reconciliation with the North.

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Of course we would have supplied thousands of troops to the WW2 war effort with the resulting deaths on battlefield and bombing by Germany

Thousands of Irish men died in WWII.

padma · 15-12-2013 11:18AM

There is a huge difference between how Britain treated Scotland and Wales on the British mainland and how they treated Ireland a seperate island. Don't be fooled any other way. It is all recorded in the history books from the plantation the confiscation of Irish land the cromwellian invasion penal laws the famine and so on so forth placed Ireland in a much different position historically than both Scotland and Wales.

Though by all means the main obstruction to British rule in Ireland was the Irish people themselves, the dispossessed and the poor.

dxhound2005 · 15-12-2013 11:19AM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

The deal Redmond had negotiated meant that Dublin would have more territory than was subsequently obtained in the Treaty. If the British had kept their promises and introduced Home Rule we would be all happy little subjects of the Queen and treated the same way that the Scottish and Welsh are. It is unlikely that Sinn Fein would have made the advances they did in 1918. But once again of course Britain reneged on its promise.
I can't see a situation where we would have moved from Home Rule to a Republic. Although if we did and remained in the Commonwealth for the sake of Unionist feelings it wouldn't have been the worst decision.
Of course we would have supplied thousands of troops to the WW2 war effort with the resulting deaths on battlefield and bombing by Germany[/QUOTE

I think you will find that "unionist feelings" and the outbreak of World War 1 had a lot to do with the failure of Home Rule. Having the island divided up the way it is now is just the logical outcome of history, mainly the Ulster Plantation. It can always change. The natives in America and Australia have had to come to terms with plantations of Europeans in more recent times.

An island does not need to be one political entity, it all depends on the settlement between whatever populations are in occupation at a given time. Cuba is one political entity, its neighbour Hispaniola is divided into Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Our neighbouring island may well be divided shortly depending on what the Scots decide.

LordSutch · 15-12-2013 12:36PM

padma wrote: »

There is a huge difference between how England Britain treated Scotland and Wales on the British mainland and how they treated Ireland a seperate island. Don't be fooled any other way. It is all recorded in the history books from the plantation the confiscation of Irish land the cromwellian invasion penal laws the famine and so on so forth placed Ireland in a much different position historically than both Scotland and Wales.

Though by all means the main obstruction to British rule in Ireland was the Irish people themselves, the dispossessed and the poor.

I was talking about the decades since partition, not the hundreds of years that preceded 1918/1922.

dirtyden · 15-12-2013 12:44PM

LordSutch wrote: »

I was talking about the decades since partition, not the hundreds of years that preceded 1918/1922.

What are you comparing to what? Did the Welsh and Scots get home rule in 1918/1922 too? I cant see what comparison you are trying to make here.

OldRio · 15-12-2013 12:49PM

Just read the last few pages. Some of ye are great at the wind up.;)

padma · 15-12-2013 01:03PM

So again sutch will you tell us. Do you support the Good Friday agreement and the peace process in general. As I know you speak quite strongly about unionism on boards it would be good to gauge your support for peace in Ireland.

Dyr · 15-12-2013 02:39PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Didn't Irish Statesmen like John Redmond and John Dillon achieve Home Rule, are they just written off, Parnell etc. The 16 crowd as the Blueshirts would say were a motley crew with no mandate.

It's only when the Brits started executing them that opinion shifted.

1) Redmond did'nt achieve home rule

2) Redmond was responsible for the slaughter of more Irishmen than any other politician in modern Irish History.

Mint Aero · 15-12-2013 02:49PM

Saw Gerry at the funeral this morning. Great representation for Ireland. Very proud, well done to all those involved!

LordSutch · 15-12-2013 03:22PM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Saw Gerry at the funeral this morning. Great representation for Ireland. Very proud, well done to all those involved!

Disgusting thought that he might be representing Ireland :mad:

thankfully he's not.

Fred Swanson · 15-12-2013 03:23PM

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moxin · 15-12-2013 03:38PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Was not the promise delayed due to WWI and a hostile (to home rule) North?

At the same time Britain promised the Arabs independence if they rose up against the Ottoman Turks. They indeed did rise up but Britain did not keep the promise, surprise surprise.

Frank Black · 15-12-2013 03:49PM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Saw Gerry at the funeral this morning. Great representation for Ireland. Very proud, well done to all those involved!

He represents an insignificant little band of rummy eyed barstool republicans who like to sing rebel songs down the pub and tell each other how brave they all are.

He does not represent my Country and thankfully he never will.

Fr. Ned · 15-12-2013 03:58PM

Frank Black wrote: »

He represents an insignificant little band of rummy eyed barstool republicans who like to sing rebel songs down the pub and tell each other how brave they all are.

He does not represent my Country and thankfully he never will.

Must be a big pub then.

SF have 29 elected members in the 6 counties and 4 ministerial positions.
They have 14 TD's in Dail Eireann too.

I think if you add up the supporters and voters it takes to get to that position it's more than an 'insignificant little band of rummy eyed barstool republicans',
whatever that means......

But carry on......ignorance is bliss.

Fred Swanson · 15-12-2013 03:59PM

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Fr. Ned · 15-12-2013 04:01PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Stop reading the sindo then......

My name is URL · 15-12-2013 04:21PM

Frank Black wrote: »

He does not represent my Country and thankfully he never will.

Your country... lmao.

I'm sure he'd be totally heartbroken to know that the meek, embittered **** who can't get past the civil-war politics of yesteryear, don't see him as representing them!

Reekwind · 15-12-2013 04:45PM

Mint Aero wrote: »

Saw Gerry at the funeral this morning. Great representation for Ireland. Very proud, well done to all those involved!

Interestingly, Adams was invited to join the guard of honour because of the long and close ties that Sinn Fein has with the ANC. He was supporting the anti-apartheid movement at a time when Thatcher and Western leaders still considered it a terrorist outfit

sid waddell · 15-12-2013 04:54PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Adams isn't a world leader. I'd venture to say that 95% of the people in the world have never even heard of him.

If 5% of people in the world have heard of him, that's probably still five times more than have heard of Enda Kenny or any other Irish politician.

Nodin · 15-12-2013 05:02PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Didn't Irish Statesmen like John Redmond and John Dillon achieve Home Rule, are they just written off, Parnell etc. The 16 crowd as the Blueshirts would say were a motley crew with no mandate.

It's only when the Brits started executing them that opinion shifted.

They didn't.

As can be imagined, I hold little respect for the opinion of the FG contingent.

Frank Black wrote:

He represents an insignificant little band of rummy eyed barstool republicans
who like to sing rebel songs down the pub and tell each other how brave they all
are.

His party represents 20% of the electorate and many who fought for what they believed in. He himself took three bullets. If there's any bunch of flapping mouths around here Frank baby, they aren't on the republican side.

Nodin · 15-12-2013 05:03PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Interestingly, Adams was invited to join the guard of honour because of the long and close ties that Sinn Fein has with the ANC. He was supporting the anti-apartheid movement at a time when Thatcher and Western leaders still considered it a terrorist outfit

Indeed. Imagine taking measures against an organisation that was fighting an openly avowedly racist regime. Disgusting stuff.

sid waddell · 15-12-2013 05:13PM

LordSutch wrote: »

They were there for Mandela's funeral, Mandela being the man that ended apartheid in South Africa.

Hatred towards Adams and the IRA for sure, with far too many good people in the ground because of his movements dispicable actions, and the really awful thing is that he calmy claims that 'oh well that's what happens in war' or "they had a laissez faire disregard for their own security". Hopefully he'll get stranded there and the ANC will give him a job at something menial and back breaking.

That's why some of us have a blind hatred for him.

Nice to see you admitting you have a "blind hatred".

Blind hatred is an irrational, impenetrable, obsessive hatred of somebody, oblivious to facts, context or reason.

I think that nicely sums up your position.

seanie27 · 15-12-2013 06:48PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Maybe the ANC sign writer chose Adams? either way the ANC are a thoroughly currupt bunch of fellas, not unlike the Shinners, and I'm sure Adams felt right at home with them there hangers on (including the Fake sign writer).

Mandela was in a class of his own.

Obviously not classy enough for Unionist and SDLP councillors in 1986 who refused him freedom of the city.

Nodin · 15-12-2013 06:51PM

seanie27 wrote: »

Obviously not classy enough for Unionist and SDLP councillors in 1986 who refused him freedom of the city.

Classy.

On the same theme

"Northern Ireland First Minister Peter Robinson will not be attending the former South African president's funeral on Sunday.

A spokesman for Mr Robinson said he "was looking after executive business".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25385234

Anyone remember Robinson sneering at the Republic's football squad for having "coloureds" in the side?

timthumbni · 15-12-2013 07:19PM

Nodin wrote: »

Classy.

On the same theme

"Northern Ireland First Minister Peter Robinson will not be attending the former South African president's funeral on Sunday.

A spokesman for Mr Robinson said he "was looking after executive business".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25385234

Anyone remember Robinson sneering at the Republic's football squad for having "coloureds" in the side?

I don't remember that actually. I do remember people taking the piss about the number of english men in the republics squad.

Have you any evidence or links re Robinson sneering at coloureds ? I'm not disputing your recollection but I'm genuinely interested as I had never heard of that before.

Nodin · 15-12-2013 08:44PM

timthumbni wrote: »

I don't remember that actually. I do remember people taking the piss about the number of english men in the republics squad.

Have you any evidence or links re Robinson sneering at coloureds ? I'm not disputing your recollection but I'm genuinely interested as I had never heard of that before.

I can find no link alas. It was an interview (TV) in which he was asked (obviously to get a reaction) would he ever support or cheer the Republic's side, to which he said "No", went on a bit and just at the end observed 'I see they've managed to pick up a few coloureds along the way as well' (or words close to that effect).

That's as I remember it, but feel free to dismiss it as my aging brain malfunctioning as I've no source save memory.

K-9 · 16-12-2013 01:39AM

I'm used to the discussions over Londonderry/Derry.

The John Hume name calling I love more, tells a hell of a lot about a person. Complete and utter gentleman, maybe far too much and far too nice, shame we didn't have him cloned on all sides of the conflict, would have been sorted a long time ago.

It's odd, John Hume is kind of forgotten these days, as Shinners so often quote, the victors write the history.

Gerry Adams : Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?

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