woodcock dog

charlie10 · 12-12-2013 01:00PM #1

so was having a chat with a lad about this topic of the woodcock springer. it always seems that lads think that a woodcock hunting dog is a harder going dog than a dog that hunts pheasants,this reflects in the price people ask for them.now i disagree because i always tend to hunt woodcock out of drains of sallys and the edge of forestrys which i wouldnt class bad cover,and when the weather gets hard the pheasants seem to be tight in heavy cover ,same applies for rabbits i think a dog has a harder hunt on a rabbit that might run down a heavy ditch ahead of them,so why is it people claim because a dog hunts 100s of woodcock a season that he automatically must be an extreme cover dog.what are peoples opinion on it?

lofty95 · 12-12-2013 01:09PM

when he says a harder going dog would he be referring to the stamina of the dog

charlie10 · 12-12-2013 01:19PM

i wouldnt of thought so cause if what they are saying is true they should stay going for longer due to cover being easier

lofty95 · 12-12-2013 01:41PM

I shoot mainly woodcock and i wouldnt consider the cover the birds are in particularly heavy.

charlie10 · 12-12-2013 02:21PM

exactly lofty ,its just lads are putting up facebook pages called woodcock hunting dogs and i dont think there as hard as a dog that can run cover for pheasents or rabbits

fiestaman · 12-12-2013 02:45PM

Whats a woodcock hunting dog? A dog that only hunts woodcock, never seen one. Ive rissen the few woodcock this year with my dog and they came from light cover alright, rose 3 hens that were berried in cover, dog nearly pegged them it was so hard for them to get out. My dog is a hunting dog, if i say IN you can be guarnteed theres no woodcock pheasant blackbird left in there, thats for sure. So i wouldnt care if lad says woodcock dog, you need to see them hunting to see what there made of.

charlie10 · 12-12-2013 03:15PM

well i would agree a dog should hunt anything so why do lads put this tag of "a serious woodcock dog" on the dog when realistically they are just hunting handy cover and i totally agree with u fiestaman

BoarHunter · 12-12-2013 04:57PM

the most important thing for a woodcock dog is to be clever. If you especially target woodcocks you will find out that they are a lot smarter than pheasants.
Of course in ireland you can flush a lot of woodcocks. If you start your hunt early you will find them in light cover. This is due to their night feeding habit. To give the birds a fair chance it's always better to start hunting woodcock from 09 am. The birds had then enough time to get back to their day time hide away.
Also early season birds will be easier to reach and as described found around running water. Which is kind of normal when you are just after covering thousands of miles, the first thing you do is to stay where you have food, drink and cover at the same place. In addition early season birds are often juveniles, you will be able to confirm it by their wing feathers and so have very little experience.

Coming from France I can tell you that almost any willing dog will flush pheasants. They pretty much run in a straight line as fast as they can. not that many will give you consistant satisfaction at blocking woodcocks. it's a bird from a different league.

Obviously in Ireland we are blessed with plenty of them

Double Barrel · 12-12-2013 05:49PM

I have bird-dogs.

:D

sniper83 · 12-12-2013 07:47PM

charlie10 wrote: »

so was having a chat with a lad about this topic of the woodcock springer. it always seems that lads think that a woodcock hunting dog is a harder going dog than a dog that hunts pheasants,this reflects in the price people ask for them.now i disagree because i always tend to hunt woodcock out of drains of sallys and the edge of forestrys which i wouldnt class bad cover,and when the weather gets hard the pheasants seem to be tight in heavy cover ,same applies for rabbits i think a dog has a harder hunt on a rabbit that might run down a heavy ditch ahead of them,so why is it people claim because a dog hunts 100s of woodcock a season that he automatically must be an extreme cover dog.what are peoples opinion on it?

Id agreed with you that the cover that woodcock like is usually very huntable. But you will also get woodcock in heavy cover depending on location, weather, time of year and their mood..

I do a fair bit of woodcock hunting and speaking from experience, I have had one or two very hard fast hunting springers and i moved them on for being too hard hunting in cover as they wouldnt last the day woodcock hunting and didnt suit me.

For me what sets a good woodcock dog apart from other spaniels is stamina and a brain and obivously the dog must be able to hunt ANY cover and stay in it, I dont want the dog to destroy himself just want him to hunt it...
I guess the only way to prove a dog is a decent woodcock dog is to see it hunting both light and heavy covers as you will meet woodcock in very heavy cover too..;)

lofty95 · 12-12-2013 08:34PM

sniper83 wrote: »

Id agreed with you that the cover that woodcock like is usually very huntable. But you will also get woodcock in heavy cover depending on location, weather, time of year and their mood..

I do a fair bit of woodcock hunting and speaking from experience, I have had one or two very hard fast hunting springers and i moved them on for being too hard hunting in cover as they wouldnt last the day woodcock hunting and didnt suit me.

For me what sets a good woodcock dog apart from other spaniels is stamina and a brain and obivously the dog must be able to hunt ANY cover and stay in it, I dont want the dog to destroy himself just want him to hunt it...
I guess the only way to prove a dog is a decent woodcock dog is to see it hunting both light and heavy covers as you will meet woodcock in very heavy cover too..;)

I know this is ofF point a little In what situation could you expect to see woodcock in heavy cover.

charlie10 · 12-12-2013 09:20PM

sniper I understand what you are saying no point a dog killing themselves up on the back of a ditch when you want them in a drain so brain does come into it . Good reply cheers. I was out Sunday and was hunting the back of ditches with the springer. but then wanted him in the drain in one particular spot . so recalled him off the ditch then stopped him and sent him down the drain. Some dogs just want to hunt the heavy stuff and take the hard way out .

charlie10 · 12-12-2013 10:04PM

sniper I understand what you are saying no point a dog killing themselves up on the back of a ditch when you want them in a drain so brain does come into it . Good reply cheers. I was out Sunday and was hunting the back of ditches with the springer. but then wanted him in the drain in one particular spot . so recalled him off the ditch then stopped him and sent him down the drain. Some dogs just want to hunt the heavy stuff and take the hard way out .

kermitpwee · 12-12-2013 11:58PM

Myself and the uncle hunt woodcock, a woodcock dog is a dog that will hunt constantly without scent for hours on end, massive stamina, will blitz cover if required and speed is not required. I have found that often very good woodcock dogs get very hot on pheasants and are very hard to keep in range on pheasants as my woodcock dogs are often let 40- 50 yards away from me while I wait on the outside. On pheasants if they come on the scent at 30 yards by the time he is flushed he will be out of range. I personally don't use the whistle much with woodcock dogs. Obviously you can use the stop whistle if you wish. I got a very good woodcock dog of a man by accident. I bought a springer of a trainer for shooting pheasants, he told me that due to the massive hunting drive of the dog I would need to keep the dog quartering at no more than 10 yards and ideally 5 yards as he would move out very quickly when on scent. I did this for the first two years and everybody said he was a mighty dog, best they had seen etc but he was no good for woodcock as I had him so tight. I was confident that at this stage I could tighten him if required so I let him out over a period of 6 months. My buddies and I were amazed at the woodcock hunting machine we now had and I have kept him that way ever since.

snipe02 · 13-12-2013 12:22AM

kermitpwee wrote: »

Myself and the uncle hunt woodcock, a woodcock dog is a dog that will hunt constantly without scent for hours on end, massive stamina, will blitz cover if required and speed is not required. I have found that often very good woodcock dogs get very hot on pheasants and are very hard to keep in range on pheasants as my woodcock dogs are often let 40- 50 yards away from me while I wait on the outside. On pheasants if they come on the scent at 30 yards by the time he is flushed he will be out of range. I personally don't use the whistle much with woodcock dogs. Obviously you can use the stop whistle if you wish. I got a very good woodcock dog of a man by accident. I bought a springer of a trainer for shooting pheasants, he told me that due to the massive hunting drive of the dog I would need to keep the dog quartering at no more than 10 yards and ideally 5 yards as he would move out very quickly when on scent. I did this for the first two years and everybody said he was a mighty dog, best they had seen etc but he was no good for woodcock as I had him so tight. I was confident that at this stage I could tighten him if required so I let him out over a period of 6 months. My buddies and I were amazed at the woodcock hunting machine we now had and I have kept him that way ever since.

so your saying a pheasant dog does not have to hunt for hours without scent , have massive stanima and drive be a machine in cover be able to hunt 40 50 ydds out or quarter in close if needed that just sounds like a good spaniel to me wouldnt call it a woodcock dogor anything else same as charlie I hear a lot of lads banging on about woodcock dogs when what they describe is what you would expect from any self respecting spaniel ,,, lads seem to be cashing on the woodcockdog craze ,,, where i hunt pheasants , from end if nov on pheasants are scarce birds are hard won hunt hundreds of acres without even getting a sniff the dogs would have to hunt all day sometimes with little or no scent the same dogs will hit any ditch or cover and can double as so called woodcock dogs a lot of time its the dogs rattling cover that puts out woodcock infairness if your dog is not always in the cover it wont put out woodcock but in fairness if your dog is not always inside its not a pheasant or rabbit dog either imo rabbits are the ultimate test of a spaniel rabbits used to being hunted in heavy briars need to be pressed a lot harder than any pheasant or woodcock

snipe02 · 13-12-2013 12:38AM

BoarHunter wrote: »

the most important thing for a woodcock dog is to be clever. If you especially target woodcocks you will find out that they are a lot smarter than pheasants.
Of course in ireland you can flush a lot of woodcocks. If you start your hunt early you will find them in light cover. This is due to their night feeding habit. To give the birds a fair chance it's always better to start hunting woodcock from 09 am. The birds had then enough time to get back to their day time hide away.
Also early season birds will be easier to reach and as described found around running water. Which is kind of normal when you are just after covering thousands of miles, the first thing you do is to stay where you have food, drink and cover at the same place. In addition early season birds are often juveniles, you will be able to confirm it by their wing feathers and so have very little experience.

Coming from France I can tell you that almost any willing dog will flush pheasants. They pretty much run in a straight line as fast as they can. not that many will give you consistant satisfaction at blocking woodcocks. it's a bird from a different league.

Obviously in Ireland we are blessed with plenty of them

and where willthese willing dogs flush these easily found pheasants not knocking woodcock at all I love em but a january cock pheasant would for me run rings around a woodcock pheasants on estates etc are different of coarse the might have 300 birds on an acre but we would have 300 acres and one bird I met 10/11 woidcock yesterday and expect to meet more as the season goes on but I garuntee there will be very few days from here in where ill meet that many pheasants and I wouldnt be taking out any old willing dog with me

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 01:01AM

i also cant see how some lads can say a dog needs to be smarter to hunt woodcock either i just think this is lads defending a spaniel that they own and know cant hunt cover . dogs hunts a woodock and he is hit how far could he run ? not very far dog finds him job done . now a dog that hunts a cock that runs circles around him and still manages to put him up is then shot and hits the ground running the dog then has to use his nose and head to trail him and keep on him till he retrieves him , thats why im thinking the dog that can hunt the pheasent has a harder job than the woodcock dog ,and im very open to correction................trigger!!!!!!!

kermitpwee · 13-12-2013 08:14AM

snipe02 wrote: »

so your saying a pheasant dog does not have to hunt for hours without scent , have massive stanima and drive be a machine in cover be able to hunt 40 50 ydds out or quarter in close if needed that just sounds like a good spaniel to me wouldnt call it a woodcock dogor anything else same as charlie I hear a lot of lads banging on about woodcock dogs when what they describe is what you would expect from any self respecting spaniel ,,, lads seem to be cashing on the woodcockdog craze ,,, where i hunt pheasants , from end if nov on pheasants are scarce birds are hard won hunt hundreds of acres without even getting a sniff the dogs would have to hunt all day sometimes with little or no scent the same dogs will hit any ditch or cover and can double as so called woodcock dogs a lot of time its the dogs rattling cover that puts out woodcock infairness if your dog is not always in the cover it wont put out woodcock but in fairness if your dog is not always inside its not a pheasant or rabbit dog either imo rabbits are the ultimate test of a spaniel rabbits used to being hunted in heavy briars need to be pressed a lot harder than any pheasant or woodcock

I didn't say that a pheasant dog didn't have to hunt. Im just giving you my opinion. I have seen dogs that lacked drive hunt like crazy when they get on a pheasant, Imo a woodcock dog hunts all the time and can often put up woodcock thru its footwork rather than scent. I don't believe that a spaniel can be trained to quarter tight and then hunt at 40-50 yards all at the one time, any dog can be trained tight and taught to get back and search(not true hunting for me) at any distance though. As for rabbits I don't see why they are in the conversation as even a rubbish spaniel will want to hunt rabbits in my experience.

snipe02 · 13-12-2013 09:12AM

kermitpwee wrote: »

I didn't say that a pheasant dog didn't have to hunt. Im just giving you my opinion. I have seen dogs that lacked drive hunt like crazy when they get on a pheasant, Imo a woodcock dog hunts all the time and can often put up woodcock thru its footwork rather than scent. I don't believe that a spaniel can be trained to quarter tight and then hunt at 40-50 yards all at the one time, any dog can be trained tight and taught to get back and search(not true hunting for me) at any distance though. As for rabbits I don't see why they are in the conversation as even a rubbish spaniel will want to hunt rabbits in my experience.

I would put that that down to how the dog was introduced to hunting as in lads brjnging 6 month old pups out in the field to hunt game thus boring the pup and teaching it to only hunt when it comes on scent not hunt for it a dog that is all go is searching for scent he is not a woodcock dog I never said just rabbits I said rabbits in heavy briars and which are used to being hunted they are hard pressed ive seen good spaniels spend 10 minutes or more on a bunnies tail before or if it bolted and yes a good intelligent spaniel can be let out to hunt at 40 50 yards to hunt and be quartered tight or hunted tight your dog should be checking where you want them they will always test ya I know and naturally want to do the oppisate of what ya want but generally nl one is questioning the hardness or drive of lads dogs who only hunt woodcock but what im saying is it doesnt set them apart in my eyes it could be misleading to newcomers

TriggerPL · 13-12-2013 10:15AM

What jack ass came up with the term woodcock hunting spaniel in the first place . Who just trains there dog to hunt woodcock ,

What ? do ya beat it with the pheasant shouting no !! To stop it . A hard hunting dog is a dog that not afraid to get in when told , has the brains and nose to know there a bird or not and will work for the day .

What more can you ask from a dog

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 10:31AM

TriggerPL wrote: »

What jack ass came up with the term woodcock hunting spaniel in the first place . Who just trains there dog to hunt woodcock ,

What ? do ya beat it with the pheasant shouting no !! To stop it . A hard hunting dog is a dog that not afraid to get in when told , has the brains and nose to know there a bird or not and will work for the day .

What more can you ask from a dog

ya where did this term of woodcock dog come from cause I've heard it so many times . There is lads selling pups from so called woodcock dogs and asking big money one lad in particular was on this forum selling big dogs who supposedly were woodcock machines and from what I have seen and heard it's the opposite. Some lads saying they shot hundreds of woodcock over them a season I would be more impressed with a dog that could hunt hundreds of pheasant in more testing cover or rabbits like it's been said footwork could flush a woodcock so that's not really testing the most important part of a spaniel which is its nose.could you not hunt woodcock with any dog that will run a drain if this is the case. Again open to correction

TriggerPL · 13-12-2013 11:22AM

charlie10 wrote: »

ya where did this term of woodcock dog come from cause I've heard it so many times . There is lads selling pups from so called woodcock dogs and asking big money one lad in particular was on this forum selling big dogs who supposedly were woodcock machines and from what I have seen and heard it's the opposite. Some lads saying they shot hundreds of woodcock over them a season I would be more impressed with a dog that could hunt hundreds of pheasant in more testing cover or rabbits like it's been said footwork could flush a woodcock so that's not really testing the most important part of a spaniel which is its nose.could you not hunt woodcock with any dog that will run a drain if this is the case. Again open to correction

No lad been trying the missus pug for months , and ya want to see the size of his nose .

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 11:44AM

TriggerPL wrote: »

No lad been trying the missus pug for months , and ya want to see the size of his nose .

ha ha brill

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 11:45AM

TriggerPL wrote: »

No lad been trying the missus pug for months , and ya want to see the size of his nose .

ha ha brill

kermitpwee · 13-12-2013 11:53AM

snipe02 wrote: »

yes a good intelligent spaniel can be let out to hunt at 40 50 yards to hunt and be quartered tight or hunted tight your dog should be checking where you want them

For me I dont want a spaniel that looks back at me, I have had spaniels that have and I found that with that level of training the natural instinct was curbed. Yes I have read Irvine's book and so on but I really dont want a trial dog or anything close to it. I respect you know a lot about dogs but I shoot in a different manner. What suits me wont suit you and vice a versa. I dont use a whistle after 3-4 years on the dog, he knows his boundaries I let him do his job. I might use a whistle twice in 6 hours. Imo there is no way a dog can quarter tight one momennt and then hunt naturally out to 50 yards and know the difference without whistle. I hate seeing dogs dancing jigs on whistles!!

sniper83 · 13-12-2013 12:10PM

lofty95 wrote: »

I know this is ofF point a little In what situation could you expect to see woodcock in heavy cover.

Really wet windy weather they dont like getting wet. We get plenty of that here in the west!

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 12:54PM

kermitpwee wrote: »

For me I dont want a spaniel that looks back at me, I have had spaniels that have and I found that with that level of training the natural instinct was curbed. Yes I have read Irvine's book and so on but I really dont want a trial dog or anything close to it. I respect you know a lot about dogs but I shoot in a different manner. What suits me wont suit you and vice a versa. I dont use a whistle after 3-4 years on the dog, he knows his boundaries I let him do his job. I might use a whistle twice in 6 hours. Imo there is no way a dog can quarter tight one momennt and then hunt naturally out to 50 yards and know the difference without whistle. I hate seeing dogs dancing jigs on whistles!!

I have to agree that a dog that is used to hunting ditches will find it hard to quarter a nice tight pattern but at the same time a good one will quarter into the wind in a respectable manner for rough shooting

sniper83 · 13-12-2013 12:55PM

kermitpwee wrote: »

For me I dont want a spaniel that looks back at me, I have had spaniels that have and I found that with that level of training the natural instinct was curbed. Yes I have read Irvine's book and so on but I really dont want a trial dog or anything close to it. I respect you know a lot about dogs but I shoot in a different manner. What suits me wont suit you and vice a versa. I dont use a whistle after 3-4 years on the dog, he knows his boundaries I let him do his job. I might use a whistle twice in 6 hours. Imo there is no way a dog can quarter tight one momennt and then hunt naturally out to 50 yards and know the difference without whistle. I hate seeing dogs dancing jigs on whistles!!

Well said.

The main reason lads class a spaniel as a woodcock dog is most of what they hunt is woodcock! So their dog(s) are consistently in some type of cover not quatering a rushy field or a field of beet after pheasants.. They need the dog in cover all the time to meet woodcock.. now for a dog to be good woodcock dog he has to hunt cover (not rushes!) blind with no scent and sure the dog will put up woodcock by making noise but he still has to be inside in the cover hunting it..

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 01:16PM

sniper83 wrote: »

Well said.

The main reason lads class a spaniel as a woodcock dog is most of what they hunt is woodcock! So their dog(s) are consistently in some type of cover not quatering a rushy field or a field of beet after pheasants.. They need the dog in cover all the time to meet woodcock.. now for a dog to be good woodcock dog he has to hunt cover (not rushes!) blind with no scent and sure the dog will put up woodcock by making noise but he still has to be inside in the cover hunting

spaniel should hunt the cover for pheasants and rabbits and woodcock that's why I asked the question why they think they are a better dog and why they think they are worth more.

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 01:22PM

sniper83 wrote: »

Well said.

The main reason lads class a spaniel as a woodcock dog is most of what they hunt is woodcock! So their dog(s) are consistently in some type of cover not quatering a rushy field or a field of beet after pheasants.. They need the dog in cover all the time to meet woodcock.. now for a dog to be good woodcock dog he has to hunt cover (not rushes!) blind with no scent and sure the dog will put up woodcock by making noise but he still has to be inside in the cover hunting

spaniel should hunt the cover for pheasants and rabbits and woodcock that's why I asked the question why they think they are a better dog and why they think they are worth more.

charlie10 · 13-12-2013 01:22PM

sniper83 wrote: »

Well said.

The main reason lads class a spaniel as a woodcock dog is most of what they hunt is woodcock! So their dog(s) are consistently in some type of cover not quatering a rushy field or a field of beet after pheasants.. They need the dog in cover all the time to meet woodcock.. now for a dog to be good woodcock dog he has to hunt cover (not rushes!) blind with no scent and sure the dog will put up woodcock by making noise but he still has to be inside in the cover hunting

spaniel should hunt the cover for pheasants and rabbits and woodcock that's why I asked the question why they think they are a better dog and why they think they are worth more.

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