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Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

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  • 07-12-2013 9:43am
    #1
    potpourri
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭


    It seems that the original grounds on which patronage of the new secondary school were awarded are not being honoured. The Church of Ireland asked to run the school on the basis that applications from children attending seven local primary schools would receive priority. People of all beliefs and none supported the their application for patronage over bids from VEC and Educate Together on the basis of this equal access.
    The admission policy for 2014 (now complete) honoured and respected this undertaking
    Recently an admission policy for 2015 has appeared on the school website which introduces prioritisation for Children of CofI faith. Interestingly this comes after Department of Education have made their decision.

    Is this decision going to cause division in the wonderful community spirit that exists in Greystones/Delgany area?
    Post edited by 2011 on


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    #2
    apples12
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭apples12


    I agree. We were led to believe that this would be a faith school for children of all christian faiths from the feeder schools in Greystones. We were manipulated to get our votes and now that patronage has been awarded the goalposts are being moved. We were sold a pup. We should have voted for the vec or educate together who would have welcomed all local children


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    #3
    stilltryingit
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭stilltryingit


    Am also very disappointed it looks like non CofI children will have a very small chance of admission to the school in 3 or 4 years time as demand is going to increase hugely, you only need to look at the huge numbers in infant classes in all 7 schools at the moment. I am going to email Temple Carrig and local TDs about this. Looks like non CofI parents were used to bump up support and now they are being shafted. If enough people do this perhaps things will change.
    We also need to make sure that people know.
    I spoke to a Mum yesterday who was completely unaware, her child is in 3rd class so she hadn't looked at it as it doesn't yet apply to her.


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    #4
    potpourri
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭potpourri


    apples12 wrote: »
    I agree. We were led to believe that this would be a faith school for children of all christian faiths from the feeder schools in Greystones. We were manipulated to get our votes and now that patronage has been awarded the goalposts are being moved. We were sold a pup. We should have voted for the vec or educate together who would have welcomed all local children

    I have heard that posts on the school Facebook page that are critical of this new sectarian policy are now being removed!

    It is becoming increasingly clear that Educate Together or VEC would have been the way to proceed.

    Would an open Facebook page be the best way for the people of Greystones to discuss their feelings about the way patronage was obtained under seemingly false pretences?


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    #5
    d2ww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭d2ww


    Is there a reason why the thread on Templecarrig secondary school changing their admissions policy to favour CoI kids, has been locked?


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    #6
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,010 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    potpourri wrote: »
    I have heard that posts on the school Facebook page that are critical of this new sectarian policy are now being removed!

    Please do not make unsubstantiated allegations like this again

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #7
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    I don't see what the problem is;

    Category 1 covers all 7 Greystones schools. There are 120 places.

    Given that kids will go to St David's, Bray schools and further afield I would have thought that an over subscription for TempleCarrig wouldn't occur for local kids wanting to go.

    If CoFI kids from further afield were selected ahead of local kids I'd see that as being wrong. But that isn't the case (there is an exception for staff/clergy kids)


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    #8
    mirekb
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭mirekb


    FirstIn wrote: »
    I don't see what the problem is;

    Category 1 covers all 7 Greystones schools. There are 120 places.

    Given that kids will go to St David's, Bray schools and further afield I would have thought that an over subscription for TempleCarrig wouldn't occur for local kids wanting to go.

    If CoFI kids from further afield were selected ahead of local kids I'd see that as being wrong. But that isn't the case (there is an exception for staff/clergy kids)

    The school will almost definitely be over subscribed each year due to the amount of children leaving school, parents tend to apply to more than one school and the fact that it will have such great facilities. At that point an estimated 20 CoI children will be hand picked by the board of management and recommended by local clergy to take the first 20 of 120 places. The number 20 is an estimation by Temple Carrie themselves and this children will be CoIn from Greystones, not necessarily from the two CoIn schools.


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    #9
    Wineman
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Wineman


    They got as far as category 2 for 2014 and then it was full.


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    #10
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    So all of Cat 1 got in. Great. I hope it continues like this.

    The majority of schools in Ireland are faith based. (Which by the way I see as wrong) The vast majority of these are RC and give preference to RC kids.

    In the event of over subscription in this school they will give preference to a relatively small number of what are very much a minority in this country and in Greystones. Isn't that refreshing?

    To have thought a faith based school would do differently is at best very naive.


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    #11
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    When they were bidding to be the patron of this new State funded school, the C of I said that they would give priority to kids attending local schools, but they refused to guarantee that there would be no religious discrimination when further prioritising within that group of local kids.
    The other two patron bodies involved did give this guarantee.
    A lot of people and some local politicians supported the patron on the basis of wishful thinking, without looking at the facts as they were presented.
    We even had this discussion on boards.ie which unfortunately predicted what could happen.

    So now we have discrimination built into each category to ensure that kids of one religion are catered for before any places are allocated to anyone else.

    Cat 0
    Priority places are reserved for children of staff, management and clergy, regardless of whether they reside locally. These are by definition C of I. The siblings policy means that a family can move away from the area and still have a place reserved for any future siblings, thereby displacing some random local kid.

    Cat 1
    Places for local kids but with religious discrimination built-in, as predicted.


    Cat2
    12 places are to be reserved every year for kids of the right religion who specifically live outside the area.

    What I find most interesting about it is, they also intend to use the admissions policy to force the many "lapsed protestants" around the town out of their beds on a Sunday morning, and down to the church.
    When places get scarce, they will have to produce an Active Parish Affiliation Note, not just a Baptismal Cert;
    ...there would be a real risk that members of the local Church of Ireland community with an active parish affiliation could be excluded from the school through a process of random selection.The Board felt that this exclusion would undermine support for the school from that part of the local community that is actively affiliated to the Church of Ireland parishes and this would have negative implications for the establishment and development of the school within the ethos on which it is founded.The grounds for claiming the priority that have been introduced are both specific and exacting and require applicants to meet certain objective criteria to demonstrate active parish affiliation. This in turn is subject to subsequent certification for the School Board by the Rector of the parish concerned.
    These grounds differ substantially from the grounds currently used to determine priority for entry to some national schools under the patronage of the Church of Ireland, such as presentation of a baptismal certificate. The purpose of this approach is to ensure that those
    parents and children claiming active parish affiliation have a real and meaningful belonging to the relevant parish and an active involvement in parish life.
    And all this using public money, as the school was built by the taxpayer, and the taxpayer pays all the salaries and running costs, including "chaplaincy" costs.


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    #12
    stilltryingit
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭stilltryingit


    It would be interesting to see how many COI children will not qualify for the active affiliation to a parish status (and automatic entry as a result). Does anyone have anything in writing from the original campaign? it would be great to see that now as people really believed that religion would not be used as a deciding factor for admissions. I remember the question being asked at a meeting by more than 1 person and they received that assurance which surprised me to be honest. I suppose maybe there are different people now on the Board of the school and they don't feel obliged to honour the commitment. It's not a good start though to have all this controversy before the school opens.
    There is a huge growth in population in the area and I would say attendance at services will increase if it guarantees you a category 1 place. I predict very few non COI children in the school when it is at full capacity in 2019/2020.


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    #13
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    What! "I predict very few non COI children in the school when it is at full capacity in 2019/2020"

    Where are all these COI children going to come from? You'd need nearly every one of the 7 local schools to be full with COI kids.

    It's unfounded statements like that which add to this scaremongering.


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    #14
    stilltryingit
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭stilltryingit


    FirstIn wrote: »
    What utter rubbish "I predict very few non COI children in the school when it is at full capacity in 2019/2020"

    Where are all these COI children going to come from? You'd need nearly every one of the 7 local schools to be full with COI kids.

    It's daft statements like that which add to this scaremongering.

    After siblings are catered for, (that would probably be 50-60% of the intake by then) there might be maybe 50 places which will be awarded to the COI children first and I think there would be perhaps 20-30 of them, leaves about 20 places for new non COI children who don't already have a brother/sister in there. Maybe someone else can have a go at those calculations? Remember that would be the year group where most local schools took in an extra class of infants.
    It won't take everyone of the local schools to be full of COI children to fill this school. I suppose the next admissions policy will have to give some special priority to other Protestants, they can't be too happy at having to take their chances in a lottery for places.


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    #15
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    Read my post at 20.10. Faith based schools work this way. Most faith based schools are RC. When it suits the majority that's ok then?

    There are simply not that many COI kids in the area to anywhere near fill the school and I don't think that the 7 local school priority can/will be changed.

    This has been posted on the school site

    http://www.templecarrigschool.ie/Board%20of%20Management%20response%20to%20concerns%20raised%20around%20the%202015%20Admissions%20Policy.pdf


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    #16
    stilltryingit
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭stilltryingit


    FirstIn wrote: »
    Read my post at 20.10. Faith based schools work this way. Most faith based schools are RC. When it suits the majority that's ok then?

    There are simply not that many COI kids in the area to anywhere near fill the school and I don't think that the 7 local school priority can/will be changed.

    This has been posted on the school site

    http://www.templecarrigschool.ie/Board%20of%20Management%20response%20to%20concerns%20raised%20around%20the%202015%20Admissions%20Policy.pdf

    First in thank you for editing your post, its more reasonably worded, the original is contained in my last post. There are not enough COI children to fill the school now, but the population is expanding, so the case will be very different in a few years time. We will also see COI who are lapsed becoming more devout, this happens a lot in the UK when people are looking to get into a school. They may even be a few conversions!
    I am sure that the school board have done calculations like mine and they would have a fair idea of what lies ahead. I would hope that the local school category 1 will not change but I think we have to be realistic and state that you have to be COI and local to get that priority.


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    #17
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    "I am sure that the school board have done calculations like mine "

    Re calculations: The school board have >80% non COI. You reckon on nearly all COI. So I don't think they've done calculations like yours!

    In fairness you do mention this figure happening in the future but boy it's quite a difference. Perhaps they were dividing while you multiplied?


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    #18
    stilltryingit
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭stilltryingit


    FirstIn wrote: »
    "I am sure that the school board have done calculations like mine "

    Re calculations: The school board have >80% non COI. You reckon on nearly all COI. So I don't think they've done calculations like yours!

    In fairness you do mention this figure happening in the future but boy it's quite a difference. Perhaps they were dividing while you multiplied?

    Dividing may well be the operative word alright!
    Anyway I am off to do better things today.
    All in all it's sad that there is such bad feeling before the school has even opened and it could all have been avoided.


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    #19
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    there are only 2 secondary schools in the town - St Davids has a very strong RC ethos and its admissions policy is based on this.

    It would be a farcical situation if CoI kids failed to get into the CoI-run school because it was full of RC kids and ended up going to Davids where they will be treated as outsiders (I went to Davids and non-catholic kids were excluded from quite a few activities because they were centred around the church).

    (personally I supported the Educate Together bid for the new school and think religion has no place in taxpayer-funded schools, but we are where we are with this).


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    #20
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    There was much concern in the Presbyterian/Nazarene/Hillside/Community Churches when this was announced - I hope its resolved/clarified quickly


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    #21
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    FirstIn wrote: »
    Where are all these COI children going to come from? You'd need nearly every one of the 7 local schools to be full with COI kids.
    It's unfounded statements like that which add to this scaremongering.
    120 places, so that's 4 classes.
    12 places (so far) reserved for protestants coming from outside the area, plus another say 6 places for the offsping of the teachers. So that's half a class full already before any locals get a look in.
    Two classes each year from 2 local COI primary schools.
    That leaves one and a half classes for everyone else to fight over.


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    #22
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    I don't think the above numbers are right.

    Not all the kids in the two COI primary schools will go to the new school.
    Quite a number in the COI primary schools are not COI.

    Also my reading is that the extra 12 are additional to the 120. 6 from the offspring of teachers! I was in a big school. There was 1 pupil with a parent teaching. More ill predicated scaremongering.


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    #23
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Even if only 3 pupils are the offspring of teachers, staff and clergy, when added to the 12 brought in from outside the area, that is still half a class. There may well be a few protestants in the Gaeilscoil and the ET school.

    What you have to remember is that Templecarrig is not like East Glendalough Secondary school or St. Patricks National school. Those properties were built and are owned by the Church of Ireland.

    Templecarrig school is being built by the State and will be owned by the State. It got funding because of the expanding population of Greystones. The COI is being allowed to manage it.

    As an analogy, suppose I lent my car to a neighbour for a while, free of charge. Then one day I say to him "Can I use the car next Saturday, I need it to collect something"
    He says "Ask me again on Saturday morning, and if I'm not using it, then I'll let you borrow it"


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    #24
    FirstIn
    Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    And this must be your latest car? The neighbour you normally lend your cars to has kept all your other ones!


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    #25
    d2ww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 501 ✭✭✭d2ww


    The problem is not really about this or that admission policy, it's about the fact that the school will be too bl*ody small.
    The question the board should be addressing is where can they fit extra classrooms/portacabins on the site to cater for the pent up demand.


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    #26
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    d2ww wrote: »
    The problem is not really about this or that admission policy, it's about the fact that the school will be too bl*ody small.
    The question the board should be addressing is where can they fit extra classrooms/portacabins on the site to cater for the pent up demand.

    the application process required patrons to plan for a school of up to 1000 students.

    David's currently has less than 500 students - they should be required to take steps to increase demand, the school is way under capacity despite being the only show in town, there is presumably a reason for that.

    Educate Together were recently awarded a school for "North Wicklow" - the assumption seems to be that it will be in Bray but demand there is actually declining, maybe there should be a 3rd secondary in Greystones (the IDA site is an obvious location).


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    #27
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,010 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    loyatemu wrote: »
    the application process required patrons to plan for a school of up to 1000 students.

    David's currently has less than 500 students - they should be required to take steps to increase demand, the school is way under capacity despite being the only show in town, there is presumably a reason for that.

    Educate Together were recently awarded a school for "North Wicklow" - the assumption seems to be that it will be in Bray but demand there is actually declining, maybe there should be a 3rd secondary in Greystones (the IDA site is an obvious location).

    I'm not sure if demand in Bray is declining? I know St Thomass is closing but I think that demand for that school declined not for other schools.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #28
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I'm not sure if demand in Bray is declining? I know St Thomass is closing but I think that demand for that school declined not for other schools.

    it says in the Dept of Education report that demand in the Bray feeder area is in decline.


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    #29
    coddlehip
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭coddlehip


    loyatemu wrote: »
    it says in the Dept of Education report that demand in the Bray feeder area is in decline.

    If you look at the appendix in the report it only actually shows that demand for the schools currently in Bray has dropped, not that they wouldn't be demand for an Educate Together Second-level there. For example, I think a lot of the children going on from the Bray School Project have in past times gone on to Newpark so wouldn't show up in the table.


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    #30
    Imhof Tank
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭Imhof Tank


    loyatemu wrote: »
    David's currently has less than 500 students - they should be required to take steps to increase demand, the school is way under capacity despite being the only show in town, there is presumably a reason for that.

    ).

    Yes, there is talk that Davids were lobbying in favour of the change in Temple Carrig's policy to prevent wholesale defections of RC locals from Davids.


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    #31
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    d2ww wrote: »
    The problem is not really about this or that admission policy, it's about the fact that the school will be too bl*ody small.
    Its more than that to me.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is the first time in the history of the State that any state-owned school, or a publicly owned entity of any kind, has blatantly peddled an openly discriminatory and sectarian policy. Its a new low.

    I have no problem with privately owned schools whether they be COI, RC or Muslim teaching their own thing and using their facilities to encourage people into their religion.
    But the State has no business sponsoring any religion, and any state owned school should be 100% free of discrimination whether on the grounds of race, religion or gender.

    Wolfe Tone, himself from a protestant background, would turn in his grave to see that the basic principles of the Republic, that is Liberty, Equality and Fraternity for all citizens, have been thrown aside in the 21st century.


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