Only 1% of Civil servants not performing

Capt'n Midnight · 09-12-2013 07:03PM

Civil servants have an absenteeism rate of 4.21% compared to 2.58% in the private sector. Though in the bad old days you'd hear stories about people taking off their untaken sick leave at the end of the year.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/local-authority-sick-leave-twice-that-in-the-private-sector-1.1616147

The absenteeism rate for illness across the State’s 34 local authorities was 5.19 per cent in 2011, in the HSE it was 4.9 per cent and in the civil service 4.21 per cent. However, in the private sector, the rate was 2.58 per cent, or fewer than six days missed per worker, according to employers’ body Ibec.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cost-of-public-sector-sick-leave-falls-10-244146.html

However, the civil service has bucked the trend, experiencing a 13.2% increase in the cost of sick leave, from €52m to €58.9m, in the space of just three years. Certified leave accounts for the bulk of the increase, rising from €46m to €53.5m.

Conmaicne Mara · 09-12-2013 07:10PM

Internal review? What a joke.

Days 298 · 09-12-2013 07:12PM

The one percent include the civil servants that made the report?
What waste of our money. They just can't help it.

The Irish pictorial weekly portrayal is bang on if this is the best they can do. At least they made their bias unmissable.

Artful_Badger · 09-12-2013 07:16PM

Were the 1% that weren't performing the ones that carried out the review by any chance ?

Icepick · 09-12-2013 07:22PM

And they won't even fire the 1%.

Son Of A Vidic · 09-12-2013 07:23PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Only 1% of Civil servants not are actually performing

Fixed the obvious error in the thread title.

UCDVet · 09-12-2013 07:25PM

I've only had a few experiences with Civil servants, but I found them all to be as good, if not better, than my experiences with private employees.

Menas · 09-12-2013 07:28PM

UCDVet wrote: »

I've only had a few experiences with Civil servants, but I found them all to be as good, if not better, than my experiences with private employees.

So you think this assessment of their job performance is accurate?
Hold off on answering while I grab the popcorn.

UCDVet · 09-12-2013 07:46PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

So you think this assessment of their job performance is accurate?
Hold off on answering while I grab the popcorn.

I have no reason to believe it is inaccurate.

Unacceptable - ~.01%
Needs Improvement - ~1%
Fully Acceptable - 40%
Exceeded the Required - 53%
Outstanding - 6%

So - 6% of their workforce is pretty awesome at what they do. 53% do a good job. 40% are meeting the bare minimum....1% are problem employees and .01% should be fired.

That seems reasonable to me. And it would mirror what I've seen in most jobs I've had. Still, I feel like people misuse performance labels - if an employee gets 'needs improvement' and they aren't on a fast track to being fired; they don't actually 'need improvement'. At the jobs I've had, almost everyone was doing enough to avoid being in trouble. And the numbers here suggest that civil servants are doing what is expected of them.

joe swanson · 09-12-2013 08:05PM

Or maybe just maybe we have a hard working public sector who,even after all the cuts and abuse are good workers.

Boombastic · 09-12-2013 08:08PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Or maybe just maybe we have a hard working public sector who,even after all the cuts and abuse are good workers.

Good one! :pac:

Zulu · 09-12-2013 08:12PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Or maybe just maybe we have a hard working public sector who,even after all the cuts and abuse are good workers.

Yeah, good one.

...oh wait, were you being serious?

UCDVet · 09-12-2013 08:13PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Civil servants have an absenteeism rate of 4.21% compared to 2.58% in the private sector. Though in the bad old days you'd hear stories about people taking off their untaken sick leave at the end of the year.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/local-authority-sick-leave-twice-that-in-the-private-sector-1.1616147

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cost-of-public-sector-sick-leave-falls-10-244146.html

Not disagreeing with you at all; but....I've also seen in other articles that the median age of public workers is higher than that of private workers. They also have more years of experience and a higher educational attainment.

I'm not saying there isn't a difference or that it should be something worth looking at - but I'd want to see more data before I'd think that, as a general rule, public workers are 'worse' than others.

I'll also say that, just in my own limited experience, the type of job had a huge impact on how 'okay' it was to take sick time. In an office type job, writing software or typing reports or whatever office people do; there is normally some deadline and work output is non-linear. If you go in sick, you won't get much done anyway. Missing a day there...not a big deal. On the other hand, I used to be a cashier at a small business and if I were sick the place couldn't open unless I got someone else to do it in my place. It was a huge hassle.

When I was a cashier, unless I thought I might die....I went to work. And it sucked....but that's what we did.

As an office worker, unless I have a super-important deadline (which I rarely do), if I don't feel good, I just take a sick day. No big deal.

I went from ~1 sick day per year to ~5 sick days per year. But in both cases I was just 'normal' compared to my peers.

Spring Onion · 09-12-2013 08:13PM

I know in Galway they are too busy being sick!!

http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/1902-staff-illness-costing-councils-3m-a-year

"Maybe there’s something in the water . . . staff at Galway’s local authorities are among the sickest employees in the country.
High absenteeism rates at Galway City Council and Galway County Council have put a huge strain on finances at the two organisations that are already hard-up, according to Government figures.
The direct cost of paid sickness absence at the two local authorities was nearly €3 million in a year – that’s €1.157 million at the City Council and €1.848 million at the County Council. The report showed that every member of staff at the College Road institution takes on average 13 days sick leave per annum."

In 23 years of work, I haven't taken 13 days off sick...

Cee-Jay-Cee · 09-12-2013 08:15PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Amazingly good news from an internal review of the performance levels of our 30,000 civil servants shows that only 1% of them have a performance level of 'needs improvement' or 'not acceptable'.

In my company, a profitable IT company with a few thousand employees we normally see about 20% fall in to these categories in our annual reviews.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/civil-service-performance-review-deemed-failure-as-majority-pass-1.1621423

So a fifth of those in IT are wasters, surprised that it's such a low figure, I would have thought closer to 80% would have been more accurate...

Sand · 09-12-2013 08:17PM

Just not surprising. I know many in the public sector in general and the civil service in particular might feel hard done by, but its difficult to respect something so obviously rigged as performance reviews where 99% are rated good enough for an increment. Its blatantly the tail wagging the dog.

The difficult thing is the managers are caught in a difficult situation. If they were to go in and mark the ratings realistically, there would be uproar from the trade unions, and the craven politicians and ministers would back down. The managers would be left in the cold very fast. Everyone knows this. It would take leadership from the government to send a clear and unequivocal message to change the mindset. Something like refusing to pay any increments until a proper performance review is carried out for examples.

But leadership is in desperately short supply from the current (and the previous for that matter) government.

suicide_circus · 09-12-2013 08:19PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Or maybe just maybe we have a hard working public sector who,even after all the cuts and abuse are good workers.

Yes many are good but not 99% of them. There isnt an organisation in the world with those kind of stats.
A 1-5 rating system for employee reviews/progress/development is totally unfit for purpose and leads to misleading figures. A jobsworth who doea the bare minimum and slidea through their career never breaking a sweat is classed as "good" in this system.

SHOVELLER · 09-12-2013 08:34PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

A junior manager in the civil service contacted Newstalk this morning.
He said that one of his reportees was a definite non-performer and he gave him the appropriate rating.
But he was then contacted by the HR department telling him to change his rating as the employee would not get increments if he was badly rated.

Laughed when I read this but wouldnt discount it and fair play to the chap for telling it as it is. HR departments in the Civil Service are generally spineless anyway.

BMJD wrote: »

The problem is that if you do the absolute bare minimum you will get a 3 and thus appear to be performing well. If you are genuinely good and go the extra mile time and time again you will probably just get a 4 as managers don't like giving a 5 as it tend to raise eyebrows at a more senior level. The whole process is bollox anyway, most managers are too spineless to call out people who aren't doing their jobs right.

Exactly. No manager wants to be the bad guy and the old saying in the service of going with the flow is still apt.

The amount of PMDS reports that are copied and pasted year after year is not a shock.

5p9arw38djv2b4 · 09-12-2013 08:36PM

Spring Onion wrote: »

I know in Galway they are too busy being sick!!

http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/1902-staff-illness-costing-councils-3m-a-year

"Maybe there’s something in the water . . . staff at Galway’s local authorities are among the sickest employees in the country.
High absenteeism rates at Galway City Council and Galway County Council have put a huge strain on finances at the two organisations that are already hard-up, according to Government figures.
The direct cost of paid sickness absence at the two local authorities was nearly €3 million in a year – that’s €1.157 million at the City Council and €1.848 million at the County Council. The report showed that every member of staff at the College Road institution takes on average 13 days sick leave per annum."

In 23 years of work, I haven't taken 13 days off sick...

I did a piece of work for a Council in UK about 4/5 years ago, and one of the policy documents I looked at was targets for sick leave - their mission was to get the average sick leave down from 25 days per staff member per year to 15 days. I was in total shock and had to keep checking the numbers!!! Crazy stuff.

woodoo · 09-12-2013 08:56PM

Spring Onion wrote: »

I know in Galway they are too busy being sick!!

http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/1902-staff-illness-costing-councils-3m-a-year

"Maybe there’s something in the water . . . staff at Galway’s local authorities are among the sickest employees in the country.
High absenteeism rates at Galway City Council and Galway County Council have put a huge strain on finances at the two organisations that are already hard-up, according to Government figures.
The direct cost of paid sickness absence at the two local authorities was nearly €3 million in a year – that’s €1.157 million at the City Council and €1.848 million at the County Council. The report showed that every member of staff at the College Road institution takes on average 13 days sick leave per annum."

In 23 years of work, I haven't taken 13 days off sick...

How many times have you went into work and smit other people in that 23 years?

If someone has the flu then stay the hell out of the workplace for a while.

ScumLord · 09-12-2013 09:03PM

awec wrote: »

Internal review = worthless.

Internal reviews/audits work as part of a larger review system that must include external reviews/audits. Internal anything is basically just a top up on what was learned at the last external review/audit and in preparation for the next external audit.

But your point is correct, an internal review isn't here nor there on it's own.

Spring Onion · 09-12-2013 09:22PM

woodoo wrote: »

How many times have you went into work and smit other people in that 23 years?

If someone has the flu then stay the hell out of the workplace for a while.

Ah stop with your flu. I have only had the "real" flu once in my life. I doubt many have had it more than a couple of times.

Nermal · 09-12-2013 09:26PM

UCDVet wrote: »

I went from ~1 sick day per year to ~5 sick days per year. But in both cases I was just 'normal' compared to my peers.

Your peers are shiftless. 5 sick days a year is taking the piss.

NuckingFacker · 09-12-2013 09:36PM

I'm guessing the 1% were the ones that were too thick to even bother giving the "right" answers when asked.

"Hows your hattitude?"

"Shyte, I hate the kip and people are rubbish"

"Riight - thanks".

mikemac1 · 09-12-2013 09:36PM

Spring Onion wrote: »

I know in Galway they are too busy being sick!!

http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/1902-staff-illness-costing-councils-3m-a-year

"Maybe there’s something in the water . . . staff at Galway’s local authorities are among the sickest employees in the country.
High absenteeism rates at Galway City Council and Galway County Council have put a huge strain on finances at the two organisations that are already hard-up, according to Government figures.
The direct cost of paid sickness absence at the two local authorities was nearly €3 million in a year – that’s €1.157 million at the City Council and €1.848 million at the County Council. The report showed that every member of staff at the College Road institution takes on average 13 days sick leave per annum."

In 23 years of work, I haven't taken 13 days off sick...

Those headline figures are down to a few staff.

My own miserable multi national and proud member of IBEC give 3 days sick pay and after that you have to apply for illness benefit from the welfare.
One employee had a stroke and is gone for months, he won't be drawing wages.

The staff in the council will have better conditions and if someone is gone a few months due a heart attack that's,60, 90, whatever days absent and bang, everyone there has a high average

Birroc · 09-12-2013 09:45PM

Afraid not Mike, I worked in Galway City Council for 18 months. My manager once asked me and I quote "how many sickdays have you left?". I didn't understand the question at first. Like a fool I left!

malibu4u · 09-12-2013 10:01PM

Spring Onion wrote: »

I know in Galway they are too busy being sick!!

http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/1902-staff-illness-costing-councils-3m-a-year

"Maybe there’s something in the water . . . staff at Galway’s local authorities are among the sickest employees in the country.
High absenteeism rates at Galway City Council and Galway County Council have put a huge strain on finances at the two organisations that are already hard-up, according to Government figures.
The direct cost of paid sickness absence at the two local authorities was nearly €3 million in a year – that’s €1.157 million at the City Council and €1.848 million at the County Council. The report showed that every member of staff at the College Road institution takes on average 13 days sick leave per annum."

In 23 years of work, I haven't taken 13 days off sick...

+1.
maybe the public servants who compiled the report forgot to asses the extraordinary amount of civil servants out sick ( one in 20 on a given day ).
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/500m-lost-to-absenteeism-in-public-sector-176620.html

5% absenteeism rate for civil servants is taking the piss. Nobody I know in the private sector takes 5% time off sick each year.

Earthhorse · 09-12-2013 10:13PM

We should privatise the whole lot. That'll raise they figure well above 1% in no time.

Menas · 09-12-2013 10:18PM

CJC999 wrote: »

So a fifth of those in IT are wasters, surprised that it's such a low figure, I would have thought closer to 80% would have been more accurate...

Any idea what those IT wasters contribute to the GDP? If they are wasters they are high tax paying productive wasters. My kinda wasters.

Stainless_Steel · 09-12-2013 10:33PM

As someone who has worked in the public sector and a private multinational I can tell you that the standards are very low in the public sector. The managers expect very little from staff in general, of course there are exceptions (funnily enough all the exceptions I met previously worked in the private sector...go figure)

Only 1% of Civil servants not performing

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