Mass Layoff in Pfizer

chopper6 · 04-12-2013 05:36PM

Red Crow wrote: »

The IDA are a shambles. Whatever about encouraging these companies to come here with various tax incentives, grants, relief schemes etc. everything in their power should of been done to keep these companies here. We will now have more people on the dole who are unemployable due to the decline in the pharmaceutical sector, we will now have hundreds of secondary jobs lost through transport, IT etc and this will have a negative affect on this country overall.

Another rubbish government full of useless polices.

Why should the Govt (ie the taxpayer) constantly be throwing money at these FMCs when they almost never remain for any lenght of time.

The IDA should be plowing money into homegrown industries and rewarding irish entrepenuers instead of these fly-by-night operations.

You repeatedly hear people crowing about Pharma and IT industries from abroad providing millions of jobs and billions of euro for the irsh economy when they do nothing of the sort...they live off grants ad tax incentives that the workers are actually paying for via thier wages.

All this "we should be trying to attract these multinationals" is misleading...they're not steady providors of permanent work...they set up where and when it suits them and when they bugger off they leave desolation in thier wake.

We have a history of manafacturing here in Ireland..well why dont we manufacture? Why don't we make generic viagra and shiity computer componants instead of being spoonfed by FMCs?

Of course as usual when an overseas company goes tits-up it's customary to blame the Govt,the Public Sector via the IDA and anybody else who happens to still have a job.

These companies are leeches...they pay nothing and employ almost nobody...then they throw a laod of unemployed,bitter people out in the street where they whinge on boards.ie about the Govt letting them down.

errlloyd · 04-12-2013 05:40PM

Basically it's very difficult to find new popular drugs to make. So like a headache tablet was the ultimate money earner because people munch them like tic tacs, aids meds aren't as valuable because not as many people take them, people who take them often can't afford to pay loads for them, and unfortunately many of the people who take them don't last a huge amount of time. (bitter realities of capitalism unfortunately mean that big pharma is better off using its labs to create shampoo than cancer drugs).

Each level of complexity that you ad to a drug increases it's chances of ****ing up, so a headache tablet is (relatively) simple to test on people, they probably got it right pretty quickly, an aids drug is much more complex and they have to go through thousands of different formulas before they find one that doesn't have some diabolical side effect in specific cases. Another reason why they're losing money.

Phoebas · 04-12-2013 06:11PM

chopper6 wrote: »

These companies are leeches...they pay nothing and employ almost nobody...then they throw a laod of unemployed,bitter people out in the street where they whinge on boards.ie about the Govt letting them down.

I think I woke up this morning in Parallel Universe Ireland

Tiddlypeeps · 04-12-2013 06:17PM

Trigger Happy wrote: »

If you look at it from a global perspective then you are correct.
But from a Pfizer perspective they no longer make large profits per pill and they don't sell/manufacture as many - thus they cut jobs.
From an Ireland perspective we only have some drug manufacturers here, many generics are made out side of Ireland. So less pills to make = less jobs.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Ireland wasn't the only place that Pfizer manufactured so I'm not sure why it matters that generics are also manufactured outside of Ireland. And there are also other large pharma companies who are not in Ireland.

There are lots of small pharma companies here. Some who have been let go may even start their own. I have no idea if this is enough to place the people who have been let go (I obviously hope it is) but if you are going to say it won't as a matter of fact then I would like to see some data to back that up.

chopper6 wrote: »

Why should the Govt (ie the taxpayer) constantly be throwing money at these FMCs when they almost never remain for any lenght of time.

The IDA should be plowing money into homegrown industries and rewarding irish entrepenuers instead of these fly-by-night operations.

You repeatedly hear people crowing about Pharma and IT industries from abroad providing millions of jobs and billions of euro for the irsh economy when they do nothing of the sort...they live off grants ad tax incentives that the workers are actually paying for via thier wages.

All this "we should be trying to attract these multinationals" is misleading...they're not steady providors of permanent work...they set up where and when it suits them and when they bugger off they leave desolation in thier wake.

We have a history of manafacturing here in Ireland..well why dont we manufacture? Why don't we make generic viagra and shiity computer componants instead of being spoonfed by FMCs?

Of course as usual when an overseas company goes tits-up it's customary to blame the Govt,the Public Sector via the IDA and anybody else who happens to still have a job.

These companies are leeches...they pay nothing and employ almost nobody...then they throw a laod of unemployed,bitter people out in the street where they whinge on boards.ie about the Govt letting them down.

I can't understand your logic at all. The government invests money into these companies to get them to set up here, the tax they take in from these companies pays this back many many many times over. That means it was money well invested even if the gravy train eventually comes to an end.

Pharma and IT industries don't provide millions of jobs, in a country with a population of about 4 million that would be a bit impressive and I don't think anyone was making that claim. They do however employ tens and maybe even hundreds of thousands of people. They are absolutely not completely operating on IDA grants, to believe so is totally idiotic, it's not even close. "the workers are actually paying for via thier wages" how does this sentence make any sense, the companies pay the employees wages so how could the company run itself off it's employees wages. I'm very confused

D1stant · 04-12-2013 06:17PM

chopper6 wrote: »

These companies are leeches...they pay nothing and employ almost nobody...then they throw a laod of unemployed,bitter people out in the street where they whinge on boards.ie about the Govt letting them down.

Are you mental? Pfizer? They pay very very well & the employ 3,200 people in Ireland

chopper6 · 04-12-2013 06:29PM

D1stant wrote: »

Are you mental? Pfizer? They pay very very well

One of teh reasons they're gonna have to lay people off...wages are unsustainable especially with competition from elsewhere.

D1stant wrote: »

& the employ 3,200 people in Ireland

Thats one fifth of the number employed by Centra.

Fr_Dougal · 04-12-2013 06:34PM

chopper6 wrote: »

One of teh reasons they're gonna have to lay people off...wages are unsustainable especially with competition from elsewhere.

Thats one fifth of the number employed by Centra.

You do realise the difference between Centra and companies such as Pfizer?

Your earlier post makes no sense atall atall.

Alias G · 04-12-2013 06:36PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Why should the Govt (ie the taxpayer) constantly be throwing money at these FMCs when they almost never remain for any lenght of time.

Pfizer have been in this country since the sixties. Thats creating top end employment and kicking back taxes for almost two generations. Each of your other points have already been comprehensively dismissed elsewhere in this thread.

chopper6 · 04-12-2013 06:37PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

You do realise the difference between Centra and companies such as Pfizer?
.

One is a franchise owned by Irish people?

Fr_Dougal · 04-12-2013 06:40PM

chopper6 wrote: »

One is a franchise owned by Irish people?

Oh FFS.

What's the value-add for companies such as Centra? Do they export?

chopper6 · 04-12-2013 06:49PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Oh FFS.

What's the value-add for companies such as Centra? Do they export?

They provide employment for 15,000 people...they provide further employment for thier suppliers,they arent dependent on grants from the IDA and Enterprise Ireland,they aren't subject to shifting global trends,they arent manufacturing a product that has been widely copied,they arent going to bugger off to poland when costs become to high etc etc.

Fr_Dougal · 04-12-2013 06:53PM

chopper6 wrote: »

They provide employment for 15,000 people...they provide further employment for thier suppliers,they arent dependent on grants from the IDA and Enterprise Ireland,they aren't subject to shifting global trends,they arent manufacturing a product that has been widely copied,they arent going to bugger off to poland when costs become to high etc etc.

So do Tesco Ireland.

AlmightyCushion · 04-12-2013 06:54PM

chopper6 wrote: »

They provide employment for 15,000 people...they provide further employment for thier suppliers,they arent dependent on grants from the IDA and Enterprise Ireland,they aren't subject to shifting global trends,they arent manufacturing a product that has been widely copied,they arent going to bugger off to poland when costs become to high etc etc.

There are only do many jobs that can service the local economy and domestic demand. We need companies that export as well.

chopper6 · 04-12-2013 06:56PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

So do Tesco Ireland.

Yes...and good for them...they will continue to expand and employ people.

What's your point?

Fr_Dougal · 04-12-2013 07:00PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Yes...and good for them...they will continue to expand and employ people.

What's your point?

Limited market in Ireland, limited sales. The redistribute wealth, they don't create it. They don't innovate, they're merely a FMCG company.

Think about it, when Centra open a new shop, who does it impact? Who are their competitors?

Sugar Free · 04-12-2013 07:03PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I don't really understand how the pharma industry is in decline. Surely patents expiring just displaces profits. Instead of Phizer making a mint off of Viagra now many companies are making money off a generic alternative. Those generic alternatives need to be produced by people so I don't understand how patent expirations are permanently removing jobs from the economy forever.

Also sorry to hear about all the job losses, it's a ****ty time of year for this to happen.

Margins on generics are minuscule and laughable compared to branded margins. Also the introduction of reference pricing, while great for the cost of healthcare to the government and patients, does nothing to help the local P&L of generic manufacturers in Ireland.

Generic Viagra a.k.a. sildenifil citrate is widely available in the Irish market, as an fyi.

chopper6 · 04-12-2013 07:14PM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Limited market in Ireland, limited sales. The redistribute wealth, they don't create it.

How do foreign companies like Pfeizer using ireland as a base create wealth?

Sure they pay the workers a wage but they're never going to have a say in future policy,inventions or own shares in the company.

They're used here solely to pack boxes or mix up the pills or whatever they do in return for a wage but nobody is going to set up a rival brand now are they?

And of course,as is now happening the workers will see that FMCs owe thier workers absolutely nothing,leaving them high and dry with nothing when they leave.

I appreciate what you've been saying but putting all our eggs into a foreign-owned basket is a very dangerous preoccupation...it creates employment in the short-term but stifles growth,innovation and entrepenuership in the long run.

Look at the Agri sector...a booming export market and huge potential to increase and innovate and yet few if any people are entering this industry.

There is enormous worldwide demand for sustainable timber products..a friend of mine grows Willow for an Taisce...they even come and harvest the crop and export it overseas...yet he employs hardly any irish people,his workforce is largely polish migrants...why is this?

There's land suitable for growing willow all over he coountry...poor soil suitable for nothing else could be covered in cash crops such as this but where's the agriculture graduates willing to step up and make the industry boom?

chopper6 · 04-12-2013 07:15PM

Sugar Free wrote: »

Generic Viagra a.k.a. sildenifil citrate is widely available in the Irish market, as an fyi.

True.. i can get it for a fiver a tab (not that i need it) lol

Tiddlypeeps · 04-12-2013 07:26PM

Sugar Free wrote: »

Margins on generics are minuscule and laughable compared to branded margins. Also the introduction of reference pricing, while great for the cost of healthcare to the government and patients, does nothing to help the local P&L of generic manufacturers in Ireland.

Generic Viagra a.k.a. sildenifil citrate is widely available in the Irish market, as an fyi.

So the companies don't make as much profit. If they didn't make any profit then they wouldn't be operating in Ireland at all. They still need to manufacture and they need to hire people to do that. The original point was about employment, not profit.

NuckingFacker · 04-12-2013 07:53PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

So the companies don't make as much profit. If they didn't make any profit then they wouldn't be operating in Ireland at all. They still need to manufacture and they need to hire people to do that. The original point was about employment, not profit.

The highest earning workers in the entire world - earning income for their company through their work, not "wages" earning-were the people producing Viagra in Cork for Pfizer. They earned a good wage, granted, but they produced annual income of €26,000,000 per employee-a world record. Wyeth, now Pfizer Grange Castle, built at a cost of €1.5 Billion plus, was in net profit in Q3 Year 2.... But now, they're so straitened they have to lay off staff due to the awful world market for their product....LOL.

They've greener fields to plough and if ye don't see that, whatever. And as I said earlier, fair play to them, that is entirely their perogative, their right and the correct financial decision for them to make.

Home grown sucesses such as Kentz should be supported, and their like. You look after your own, mainly as they then tend to employ and spend profits at home. That doesn't have to be to the exclusion of MNCs, it should just be proportional - why the fixation? Irish Industry is world class and gets feck all support relative.

Tiddlypeeps · 04-12-2013 08:03PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

The highest earning workers in the entire world - earning income for their company through their work, not "wages" earning-were the people producing Viagra in Cork for Pfizer. They earned a good wage, granted, but they produced annual income of €26,000,000 per employee-a world record. Wyeth, now Pfizer Grange Castle, built at a cost of €1.5 Billion plus, was in net profit in Q3 Year 2.... But now, they're so straitened they have to lay off staff due to the awful world market for their product....LOL.

They've greener fields to plough and if ye don't see that, whatever. And as I said earlier, fair play to them, that is entirely their perogative, their right and the correct financial decision for them to make.

Home grown sucesses such as Kentz should be supported, and their like. You look after your own, mainly as they then tend to employ and spend profits at home. That doesn't have to be to the exclusion of MNCs, it should just be proportional - why the fixation? Irish Industry is world class and gets feck all support relative.

I might be missing something or maybe you quoted the wrong person but I don't see how any of what you said is a response to my post.

ofcork · 04-12-2013 08:18PM

Without the likes of Pfizer etc there would be a lot less centras,they will give their workers a good package as well.

Menas · 04-12-2013 08:24PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Ireland wasn't the only place that Pfizer manufactured so I'm not sure why it matters that generics are also manufactured outside of Ireland. And there are also other large pharma companies who are not in Ireland.

It matters because generic manufacturered outside ireland do not produce irish manufacturing jobs.

Did you read my post?

NuckingFacker · 04-12-2013 08:26PM

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I might be missing something or maybe you quoted the wrong person but I don't see how any of what you said is a response to my post.

You said it was about employment not profit. I was just adding some waffle along the sameish lines. No great excitement one way or the other, I just believe the IDA should do what it says on the tin - develope Irish industry and employers, to the benefit of Irish workers.

As an example, I employ usually around fifteen people, we manufacture product here in Ireland and pay all our taxes here in Ireland. Our profits stay, here in ireland. There's thousands upon thousands just the same as me. If a me goes to the IDA, the me gets a patronising hearing for about five minutes, then the bums rush. Cue "you've an axe to grind" posts. No, not really tbh, but some support would be welcome, but it's non-existent as we would probably never be a blockbuster employer..but thousands of small companies solidly employing tens and hundreds of thousands of workers is very, very sustainable. And we turn raw materials into products that are used across industry - real, solid business, not just import and sales. Sadly, it's not very glamorous and doesn't make good headlines.

NuckingFacker · 04-12-2013 08:34PM

dirtyden wrote: »

If you believe Pfizer make decisions based on an IDA grant you know very little about the industry. Pfizer will be losing billions per year in revenue due to the loss of patent exclusivity for Lipitor. Cuts are significant and worldwide. The pharma industry has become a more competitive environment for the pharma giants and they are having to change accordingly. It is unfortunate for those of us who work in the industry but I don't think we can hold the IDA responsible.

I've worked in every Pfizer plant in Ireland and pretty much every other Pharma plant as well. Including MSD, Schering, Abbott, Takeda, Wyeth and on and on. Thanks all the same.

In which breath did I criticise the Pharma industry?? I actually said fair play to them if you bothered reading what I wrote.

I criticised the IDA for ignoring Irish Companies to favour MNCS. At least slag me for what I said, not what you reckon I said. I've an issue with IDA policy, not the Pharma industry. Pharma plants have paid me handsomly for years - I love them as it happens. I also have very, very few illusions.

NuckingFacker · 04-12-2013 09:40PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

How have they not backed IT? They certainly have.

Irish manufacturing? That's deluded. Its impossible to compete with Asia or even the likes of Germany on this. Ireland's too small, too expensive and too remote to be a major player in manufacturing.

Not so. We manufacture enormous amounts of export items that sell worldwide for premium prices. You don't go for cheap, cheap is a dead end, you go for quality. Ireland manufactures refridgeration units for lorries, we're world class at it and export hundreds of millions of euro worth. We also manufacture hundreds of thousands of hydraulic rams, sold worldwide. And drilling equipment. And plastic mouldings. And screening, mining and exploration equipment. And Forklifts and lifting equipment. And food and drinks that are world famous. And on and on. We make brilliant manufacturers as it happens as we as a people are quick on our feet and our quality is top notch. Utterly world class.

Pill-ing up ingredients and packaging cds and manuals is not manufacturing. It's re-packing for tax reasons. Tax reasons are a crap reason to do anything as tax codes change and the playing field shifts regularily.

dirtyden · 04-12-2013 09:58PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

I've worked in every Pfizer plant in Ireland and pretty much every other Pharma plant as well. Including MSD, Schering, Abbott, Takeda, Wyeth and on and on. Thanks all the same.

In which breath did I criticise the Pharma industry?? I actually said fair play to them if you bothered reading what I wrote.

I criticised the IDA for ignoring Irish Companies to favour MNCS. At least slag me for what I said, not what you reckon I said. I've an issue with IDA policy, not the Pharma industry. Pharma plants have paid me handsomly for years - I love them as it happens. I also have very, very few illusions.

This was a thread about job losses in Pfizer. You posted a rant about how all multi nationals were here for IDA grants and then clearing out. Now if one was to put 2 and 2 together that would look like a criticism of Pfizer for taking IDA grants and clearing out. I was correcting you on that point, that is quite simply nonsense. If that was not your point why did you make it in this thread about cuts in Pfizer?

If its the IDA you have a bee in your bonnet about start a thread on that. These job losses have nothing to do with the IDA.

Here was your post. What did you mean by a lot of this in the thread specifically on Pfizer job cuts?

B0llox, with respect. A lot of this will be due to grants being curtailed, international pressure re tax planning and the fact there's greener fields. The IDA bought a pup - a glossy, shiny pup they threw money at, to the detriment of indiginous industries, mainly as they have no foresight and have their heads up their holes. Mobile plant, big world, new fields to be mown. There's always someone cheaper offering more. The IDA bet on the wrong horse, IMO. And I don't blame the MNCs, that's what they do for a living. I have scant regard for the IDA putting all their eggs into the one basket though. That was always the easier more glamorous option though. Fields and small Irish factories just don't have the same bling factor.

sparksfly · 04-12-2013 10:16PM

chopper6 wrote: »

One of teh reasons they're gonna have to lay people off...wages are unsustainable especially with competition from elsewhere.

Thats one fifth of the number employed by Centra.

This must take the prize for daftest post of the day.

The ONLY way for a country to create wealth is through exports. Pharma accounts for 30% of all Irish exports. Pfizer sells Irish made goods abroad and purchases Irish raw materials, consumables and services with foreign revenue.

Central sells Irish and foreign goods to Irish people, it gives employment but generates no wealth.

According to your daft logic, filling the country with shopkeepers would replace manufacturing.

micosoft · 05-12-2013 12:07AM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

You said it was about employment not profit. I was just adding some waffle along the sameish lines. No great excitement one way or the other, I just believe the IDA should do what it says on the tin - develope Irish industry and employers, to the benefit of Irish workers.

As an example, I employ usually around fifteen people, we manufacture product here in Ireland and pay all our taxes here in Ireland. Our profits stay, here in ireland. There's thousands upon thousands just the same as me. If a me goes to the IDA, the me gets a patronising hearing for about five minutes, then the bums rush. Cue "you've an axe to grind" posts. No, not really tbh, but some support would be welcome, but it's non-existent as we would probably never be a blockbuster employer..but thousands of small companies solidly employing tens and hundreds of thousands of workers is very, very sustainable. And we turn raw materials into products that are used across industry - real, solid business, not just import and sales. Sadly, it's not very glamorous and doesn't make good.

LOL. Here's a useful tip. IDA deals with foreign investors (says it on their tin!). Enterprise Ireland deal with indigenous enterprises. Different agencies with different mandates. This might explain your lack of success though it reads to me as if you never tried? Your complete and utter lack of knowledge with regard to the Pharma sector, Government agencies and employment supports strike me as being your bigger issue. No point grinding that axe on butter.....

chopper6 · 05-12-2013 12:35AM

[QUOTE=sparksfly;87844102

The ONLY way for a country to create wealth is through exports. Pharma accounts for 30% of all Irish exports. Pfizer sells Irish made goods abroad and purchases Irish raw materials, consumables and services with foreign revenue.

Central sells Irish and foreign goods to Irish people, it gives employment but generates no wealth.

According to your daft logic, filling the country with shopkeepers would replace manufacturing.[/QUOTE]

Where's all this "wealth" you keep talking about??

I fail to see how anybody can get wealthy working for a foreign company thatis always likely to bugger off somewhere else.

Mass Layoff in Pfizer

Comments