Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

jacothelad · 03-12-2013 11:42PM

phog wrote: »

So it's only Munster want experienced players?

Nah. It's been endemic in Irish rugby for decades. 'He can't start because he hasn't the experience.' (When can he get it?). 'X has to play because Y is inexperienced.' If a player is playing well, it doesn't matter if hem's 18 or 34. The trouble is that the 18 y.o. will never get a sniff.
There are of course times when it might be unwise to start a kid - like McL. did in starting Jackson in the H. Cup final.

phog · 03-12-2013 11:43PM

Fireball07 wrote: »

It'd be worse imo. I mean we have Ryan, but he's a TH predominantly.

I actually have faith in Casey and Scannell tbh. They've both been highly-rated at underage levels...and realistically, we're not going to get a replacement for Sherry before next weekend anyway, even if we were allowed.

They were both included in the HC squad at the start of the season, they were intended to be 3rd-choice. It mightn't be ideal, I'd have given one of them gametime before this, but I'm sure other teams have players of a similar age/experience coming in.

I've no difficulty in using either of them for short term injuries/cover. However, to think either are well placed to cover the rest of the season is a tad optimistic.

former legend · 03-12-2013 11:56PM

On the plus side, Perpignan have been absolutely decimated by injury so I reckon two wins is not out of the question.

I was really looking forward to seeing that South African winger too.

Tox56 · 04-12-2013 09:21AM

Fireball07 wrote: »

It'd be worse imo. I mean we have Ryan, but he's a TH predominantly.

I actually have faith in Casey and Scannell tbh. They've both been highly-rated at underage levels...and realistically, we're not going to get a replacement for Sherry before next weekend anyway, even if we were allowed.

They were both included in the HC squad at the start of the season, they were intended to be 3rd-choice. It mightn't be ideal, I'd have given one of them gametime before this, but I'm sure other teams have players of a similar age/experience coming in.

Don't know about Casey but Scannell was an Irish U20 captain and very impressive in the process. Nowhere near enough faith put in young players in this country, they aren't all going to totally capitulate into a quivering wreck when they're given the slightest bit of exposure. People are constantly surprised when players are 'up to it' even at Rabo level (see Cronin this year), I still think we underestimate how good young players are in this country, and what they're capable of. Munster will be fine

Stanza2 · 04-12-2013 10:06AM

Tox56 wrote: »

Don't know about Casey but Scannell was an Irish U20 captain and very impressive in the process. Nowhere near enough faith put in young players in this country, they aren't all going to totally capitulate into a quivering wreck when they're given the slightest bit of exposure. People are constantly surprised when players are 'up to it' even at Rabo level (see Cronin this year), I still think we underestimate how good young players are in this country, and what they're capable of. Munster will be fine

Could not agree more Tox. In this country as a whole we always look for quick fixes, young players have to be given a chance. There are some great young players throughout the provinces who will come good. I actually think that Leinster are also in transition and need to have faith in the best pool in the country. All the provincs have good young talent. What always cracks me up is that if we heard about a brilliant 19-20 year old for Australia, SA, NZ or France for example they would be build up to be wonder kids and compared to their great players of the past. Here we tend to play them down, just in case they get the run of themselves and get to big headed. We need to trust them, believe in them and tell them that they are the best, if that is indeed what we want them to be.

finatron · 04-12-2013 10:14AM

Tox56 wrote: »

Don't know about Casey but Scannell was an Irish U20 captain and very impressive in the process. Nowhere near enough faith put in young players in this country, they aren't all going to totally capitulate into a quivering wreck when they're given the slightest bit of exposure. People are constantly surprised when players are 'up to it' even at Rabo level (see Cronin this year), I still think we underestimate how good young players are in this country, and what they're capable of. Munster will be fine

I agree young players will never make it if there not given a shot

jamiedav2011 · 04-12-2013 10:19AM

finatron wrote: »

I agree young players will never make it if there not given a shot

The alternative side to that though is you have to know which young players to put in.

Moore for example has only played 6 games of rugby for Leinster or something stupid, and as a 22 year old TH needs managing.
For the likes of Macken and Conway who were touted out of school as Ireland's James O'Connor they've needed a lot of good coaching to move up a level, and the likes of Luke Fitzgerald has suffered from a huge amount of injury, potentially linked to his early introduction?

Definitely we should trust our young players more, the likes of Henderson for example is brutish enough to be starting for Ireland, but there's a balance to be struck.

PlayerTrader13 · 04-12-2013 10:23AM

Casey is 22, at what point do you trust him? next season?

He is out of the academy, was chosen ahead of Rael and Henry to remain at Munster, looks physically developed and mature.

Has played at A level 15 times.

jamiedav2011 · 04-12-2013 11:41AM

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Casey is 22, at what point do you trust him? next season?

He is out of the academy, was chosen ahead of Rael and Henry to remain at Munster, looks physically developed and mature.

Has played at A level 15 times.

Not sure if that's aimed at me or not, but I was merely giving a counter balance that throwing in young players like Oz do for example isn't necessarily always a good thing, not commenting on a specific player.

phog · 04-12-2013 02:07PM

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Casey is 22, at what point do you trust him? next season?

He is out of the academy, was chosen ahead of Rael and Henry to remain at Munster, looks physically developed and mature.

Has played at A level 15 times.

For a once off game or even a short spell I'd have no difficulty in using either Casey or Scannell but for cover for a season ending injury I'd like the ootion of a medical joker.

If as you seem to think a run of 15 A games is enough experience for player to step up to H/cup rugby then none of the provinces should be allowed NIQ players.

Risteard · 04-12-2013 02:11PM

phog wrote: »

For a once off game or even a short spell I'd have no difficulty in using either Casey or Scannell but for cover for a season ending injury I'd like the ootion of a medical joker.

If as you seem to think a run of 15 A games is enough experience for player to step up to H/cup rugby then none of the provinces should be allowed NIQ players.

So when is the point that he gets the exerience? 20 mins at the end of the odd Pro12 game?

Other players in specialist positions have shown no problem stepping up when given a run of games. Kilcoyne last year and Cronin this years had minimal experience yet have shown themselves capable of playing at HC level.

In fact these very same concerns were being said on here when duPreez and and Horan were announced to be leaving.

Foxtrol · 04-12-2013 02:54PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

It wasn't known for sure if ROG was retiring or not until very late in the season. As far as I know anyway.

If he hadn't have been dropped for Ireland like he was who knows what would have happened!

I find it hard to criticise Penny here to be honest, I'm not sure what else he could do. Realistically the third choice player should be looking at game time in the A league and maybe be on the bench once or twice with the Seniors.

Look at ROG's age, it was clear there was a decent chance he'd retire and I know 'ROG didn't owe anyone anything, blah, blah, blah...' but if he wasn't willing to give a firm yes or no on retirement a back up plan should have been made for JJ to get more time to be ready to step up into his shoes if needed.

Both of JJ and Cronin have slotted in great this year but similar to now there were posters complaining at the time about not being able to fit NIE's into those positions and moaning about other provinces filling those gaps. It's simple, if a province has guys in back up positions who look like they could be ready but haven't had top level game time and later have to be relied upon it's down to the coach, not the other provinces or the IRFU for not giving them a medical joker because they haven't given lads experience. It's worked out well for Munster recently and I can't see why these guys can't step up again.

phog · 04-12-2013 04:43PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Look at ROG's age, it was clear there was a decent chance he'd retire and I know 'ROG didn't owe anyone anything, blah, blah, blah...' but if he wasn't willing to give a firm yes or no on retirement a back up plan should have been made for JJ to get more time to be ready to step up into his shoes if needed.

Would you stop it, when did BOD notify Leinster he was staying/going? It's the same thing both were given time to make up their mind and one decided to go the other didn't.

Both of JJ and Cronin have slotted in great this year but similar to now there were posters complaining at the time about not being able to fit NIE's into those positions and moaning about other provinces filling those gaps. It's simple, if a province has guys in back up positions who look like they could be ready but haven't had top level game time and later have to be relied upon it's down to the coach, not the other provinces or the IRFU for not giving them a medical joker because they haven't given lads experience. It's worked out well for Munster recently and I can't see why these guys can't step up again

What's with the moaning comments? Are you deliberately being offensive? A poster can have a different view than you and not be moaning.

If a player who has had only A games is capable enough to feature in the remaining Rabo and Heineken games of the season then why are the provinces allowed medical jokers or foreign players.

Lote Tuquir?

Foxtrol · 04-12-2013 05:14PM

phog wrote: »

Would you stop it, when did BOD notify Leinster he was staying/going? It's the same thing both were given time to make up their mind and one decided to go the other didn't.

And look at the difference Leinster had given in experience to the potential backup to fill in for BOD – McFadden, Macken, O’Malley and that’s not including Fitzgerald, who Schmidt had promised to help convert to 13. Munster had given time to Keatley and that was it. They’re not comparable at all.

What's with the moaning comments? Are you deliberately being offensive? A poster can have a different view than you and not be moaning.

Giving out consistently when your backup isn’t experienced and rather than looking internally as to why this keeps happening there’s a consistent theme of complaining about other provinces and the IRFU is to me is moaning.

If a player who has had only A games is capable enough to feature in the remaining Rabo and Heineken games of the season then why are the provinces allowed medical jokers or foreign players.

Lote Tuquir?

Simply because every case is not the same.

Tuquiri for example was brought in because Leinster had lost Isa, Sexton, Conway, Carr, had several other backs under player welfare protocols, Goodman was out injured (possibly others), Fitzgerald coming back from injury and then the extra hit losing EOM to retirement. How you could possibly compare that situation to the one facing Munster of losing one hooker is ridiculous.

You’d swear Munster had never been allowed a medical joker before.

EDIT: I'm done with this, you win - no Munster player outside the starting squad is ready to make the step up, medical jokers to be brought in for every injury, no work should be done on giving back up experience...

Tomtom364 · 04-12-2013 05:38PM

Gloucester have put tickets for the munster match in kingsholm on general sale, including tickets for the shed!!

Rookie mistake.
If Theres any possibility of you going book the tickets from here asap.

https://tickets.gloucesterrugby.co.uk/fixture.aspx

Invade the shed! That would annoy them :P

leakyboots · 04-12-2013 06:16PM

I'd prefer to see both backup hookers featuring in the squad if, indeed, Sherry is out for the rest of the season. Can only stand to us in the long-run.

CatFromHue · 04-12-2013 06:24PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Look at ROG's age, it was clear there was a decent chance he'd retire and I know 'ROG didn't owe anyone anything, blah, blah, blah...' but if he wasn't willing to give a firm yes or no on retirement a back up plan should have been made for JJ to get more time to be ready to step up into his shoes if needed.

Both of JJ and Cronin have slotted in great this year but similar to now there were posters complaining at the time about not being able to fit NIE's into those positions and moaning about other provinces filling those gaps. It's simple, if a province has guys in back up positions who look like they could be ready but haven't had top level game time and later have to be relied upon it's down to the coach, not the other provinces or the IRFU for not giving them a medical joker because they haven't given lads experience. It's worked out well for Munster recently and I can't see why these guys can't step up again.

But JJ did get some good game time last year, he'd 5 starts plus another 6 sub appearances. For a third choice player to get 11 match appearances over the whole season i.e. not bunched up at the start, is pretty good I thought.

thomond2006 · 04-12-2013 07:55PM

Conway ruled out, not serious.

phog · 04-12-2013 08:30PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Giving out consistently when your backup isn’t experienced and rather than looking internally as to why this keeps happening there’s a consistent theme of complaining about other provinces and the IRFU is to me is moaning.

Who's giving out?

Tuquiri for example was brought in because Leinster had lost Isa, Sexton, Conway, Carr, had several other backs under player welfare protocols, Goodman was out injured (possibly others), Fitzgerald coming back from injury and then the extra hit losing EOM to retirement. How you could possibly compare that situation to the one facing Munster of losing one hooker is ridiculous.

You’d swear Munster had never been allowed a medical joker before.

Of course two casses are seldom the same but the post I initially replied to and you seem to have followed that trend was that academy players should be okay for long term cover. If you subscribe to that then there's no argument aynone can make to allow Lote be signed for short term cover.

bamboozle · 05-12-2013 02:46AM

Tox56 wrote: »

Don't know about Casey but Scannell was an Irish U20 captain and very impressive in the process. Nowhere near enough faith put in young players in this country, they aren't all going to totally capitulate into a quivering wreck when they're given the slightest bit of exposure. People are constantly surprised when players are 'up to it' even at Rabo level (see Cronin this year), I still think we underestimate how good young players are in this country, and what they're capable of. Munster will be fine

I've seen Scannell a few times at AIL level and he's a very good player, big unit and very good basics, this might just be the perfect opportunity for him to step up and become a fixture in the squad.

phog · 05-12-2013 11:41AM

Munster Training In UL

In Pics: Munster Training In UL
5 December 2013, 10:19 am By The Editor

Check out the pictures from Munster's training session in UL yesterday as they continue their preparations for Sunday's Heineken Cup clash against Perpignan in Thomond Park.View the gallery here.

The Munster squad trained in UL yesterday ahead of a crucial weekend of action in the Heineken Cup and the British and Irish Cup.

Munster A are in British and Irish Cup action on Friday night as they travel to Plymouth Albion.

The A side will be named later today with the Munster team to face in the crucial Heineken Cup match against Perpignan named tomorrow.

Click here to purchase tickets for Munster v Perpignan on Sunday, December 8 (ko 12:45pm).

phog · 05-12-2013 11:47AM

bamboozle wrote: »

I've seen Scannell a few times at AIL level and he's a very good player, big unit and very good basics, this might just be the perfect opportunity for him to step up and become a fixture in the squad.

Lest there be any doubt I've no issue with either Scannell or Casey stepping up and taking their chance now that there's an injury, my worry/concern is that it's a probability that this is for the rest of the season and that's a bigger leap than just match cover for a few games.

I suppose if a medical joker isn't allowed we can always add a hooker if needed should we make the Heineken cup knockout games.

05-12-2013 11:49AM

Watch out D'Arcy

phog · 05-12-2013 11:57AM

'We are masters of our own destiny'

Penney insists Munster must improve their decision-making for must-win clashes against French side

Yesterday, he expressed a desire to remain with the Reds beyond the expiration of his current contract at the end of the season. Already on top of the Pro12, if his team are sitting pretty in Pool 6 of the Heineken Cup when he next reaches the negotiating table it would strengthen his hand considerably.

Although his side have performed well this season, Penney sees plenty of room for improvement ahead of a step up in class against the Catalans.

The mistakes you might get away with against the likes of the Dragons and Zebre will be punished by the ball players in Perpignan's ranks. The New Zealander wants greater care taken with possession.

"Ball control is consistently an area of concern for us and around that is our skill execution," he said. "We are nowhere near within the bands we would deem to be acceptable.

"One is the decision making of the ball carrier and one is the decision making of the support people, but we get those bits right and we will start to be a much more dangerous side.

"We still haven't made a decision on the starting 10, but we'd have to say that Ian's still got the inside track at the moment," he said. "He's got massive shoes to fill as we know, he's been going well probably without setting the world on fire and it'd be nice if Ian could approach the game injury-free and really show what he is capable of."

phog · 05-12-2013 12:00PM

From twitter

Alan English
‏@AlanEnglish9 58m Here's another picture from the 1993 Junior Cup final, Munchin's v Pres. Really shows how much Thomond Pk has changed

The only one I know is Wirey Sexton (the ref)

.ak · 05-12-2013 12:03PM

..and haircuts.

Mahatma Geansai · 05-12-2013 01:10PM

The Munster A-team was named for the match tomorrow. The biggest/best news is that TOD has been deemed fit enough to feature. LOD featuring is also great news.

Munster A: Rory Scannell; Luke O'Dea, Cian Bohane, Ivan Dineen, Ronan O'Mahony; Johnny Holland, Duncan Williams; Alan Cotter, Niall Scannell, John Ryan; Dave Foley, Ian Nagle; Dave O'Callaghan, Ryan Murphy, Shane Buckley.
Replacements: Max Abbott, Brian Scott, Darren O'Shea, Tommy O’Donnell, Gerry Hurley, Niall Kenneally, Alex Wootton.

It gives a good insight in to the team that will face Perpignan. I imagine we'll see the following team line out in the HEC:

Munster: Felix Jones; Keith Earls, Casey Laulala, James Downey, Johne Murphy; Ian Keatley, Conor Murray; David Kilcoyne, Damien Varley, BJ Botha; Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell; Peter O'Mahoney, Sean Dougal, James Coughlan.
Replacements: James Cronin, Duncan Casey, Stephen Archer, Billy Holland, CJ Stander, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Denis Hurley.

I imagine Conway will be travelling with the squad as the 24th man. I'd imagine, the only real questions are Kilcoyne over Cronin, and Coughlan over Stander.

thomond2006 · 05-12-2013 01:32PM

Conway isn't back in training until next week MG.

Delira that TOD is back but I'm very disappointed that Dineen won't play on Sunday.

phog · 05-12-2013 03:21PM

LOD & Gerry Hurley back too that's good news for them though I think they needed to be fit for the games during the AIs.

but I'm very disappointed that Dineen won't play on Sunday.

I like Dineen but I think Downey has the edge on him so not too disappointed with Dineen being in the B&I squad.

thomond2006 · 05-12-2013 03:33PM

Well Downey for me needs to produce more to warrant an extension and also Munster need to start using him more to get over the gainline. Perpignan are down three centres this weekend so it's an area we could target.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

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