Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

CatFromHue · 03-12-2013 07:55PM

Sean Henry going to Connacht is obviously a factor here.

Also comparing Leinster to Munster in the Hooker dept is silly. Both of Leinster's first choice Hookers, when fit, are always in the Ireland squad. Our Hooker ticket is fairly settled too with Cronin, Strauss, and Dundon all at least in their third season with the club now.

Foxtrol · 03-12-2013 08:00PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Sean Henry going to Connacht is obviously a factor here.

Also comparing Leinster to Munster in the Hooker dept is silly. Both of Leinster's first choice Hookers, when fit, are always in the Ireland squad. Our Hooker ticket is fairly settled too with Cronin, Strauss, and Dundon all at least in their third season with the club now.

Sexton left Leinster in the last year as well so that's just as much a factor for them, not to mention JHW leaving a year or so before.

PlayerTrader13 · 03-12-2013 08:02PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Sexton left Leinster in the last year as well so that's just as much a factor for them, not to mention JHW leaving a year or so before.

David Doyle had to retire aswell

phog · 03-12-2013 08:03PM

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Leinster had Cronin, Dundon and Strauss in the squad.

Then they have Tracy who moved to hooker during preseason who is still in the academy and Byrne who just turned 20.

Strauss is done for the season and Cronin will miss large chunks of leinster's season with Ireland.

Leaving Leinster with Dundon, Tracy(a novice hooker at best) and Byrne(a young academy player who isn't ready).

Munster will have Varley, Casey and Scannell.

Casey and Scannell are clearly ready for top level rugby unlike Tracy and Byrne.

One injury to Dundon and Leinster would be playing tracy at hooker, he might have less than 10 games total at any level playing hooker.

you can moan all you want but its clear which team needs a medical joke and which doesn't.

So you've avoided the question and stated the facts, so I'll ask again. What has MOC done to give gametime to Tracy or his other academy player once he knew he was down to 2 hookers, knowing he would be without Cronin for small chunks of the season.

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is the exact crap I knew was going to start with that comment earlier.

So you’re asking what game time MOC has given to his 4th/5th choice hooker after his #1 was ruled out and the IRFU had already sanctioned a medical joker, given the fact his #2 is nailed on Irish backup and will miss several games at least?

Think the more pertinent question for Munster fans is how has Penney gotten into the situation again where he’s left with his 3rd choice being required to step up after being given barely any experience previously. This is becoming a trend (SH, LH, TH) and should be something to be focusing on rather than moaning about the situation another province is in.

What the IRFU will decide is their business but it's mad to say that either Casey or Scannell is up to replace Sherry, which was the original point about Munster not needing a medical joker because they had academy players.

CatFromHue · 03-12-2013 08:04PM

I don't think Sexton was ever ahead of Dundon, from what I can remember anyway.

JHW would have been far down the pecking order too but jumped up a bit when Fogarty retired at the start of that season.

PlayerTrader13 · 03-12-2013 08:07PM

phog wrote: »

So you've avoided the question and stated the facts, so I'll ask again. What has MOC done to give gametime to Tracy or his other academy player once he knew he was down to 2 hookers, knowing he would be without Cronin for small chunks of the season.

Tracy has been played some A games, but Leinster knew they were getting a medical joker because tracy is not ready to play hooker or do you not understand that?

you can't compare tracy and casey/scannell..

PlayerTrader13 · 03-12-2013 08:09PM

phog wrote: »

What the IRFU will decide is their business but it's mad to say that either Casey or Scannell is up to replace Sherry, which was the original point about Munster not needing a medical joker because they had academy players.

neither casey or scannell are in the academy, both are registered for the heinken cup and are on development contracts, both were chose ahead of henry and rael, both are highly rated and experienced hookers, who are ready for the step up.. you would think as a munster fan you'd be excited about this but apparently your not.

Foxtrol · 03-12-2013 08:10PM

phog wrote: »

So you've avoided the question and stated the facts, so I'll ask again. What has MOC done to give gametime to Tracy or his other academy player once he knew he was down to 2 hookers, knowing he would be without Cronin for small chunks of the season.

Why would he? He had his 2nd and 3rd choice available for nearly every game in the interim and the medical joker was already approved; they’re just finalizing the contract/work permit.

What the IRFU will decide is their business but it's mad to say that either Casey or Scannell is up to replace Sherry, which was the original point about Munster not needing a medical joker because they had academy players.

We don’t know because again Munster have been left in a situation where they have young lads who are 3rd choice but have been given no first team experience.

Foxtrol · 03-12-2013 08:14PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think Sexton was ever ahead of Dundon, from what I can remember anyway.

Dundon was found in the AIL while Sexton was contracted to Leinster so he was definitely ahead of him at one point. Either would be a solid 4th choice with more experience than either of the Munster 3rd choices at the minute.

shuffol · 03-12-2013 08:16PM

Teams should be able to cope with one injury in a position without having to revert to a medical joker, I can understand Leinsters need being a bit greater as they'll be without 2 players during an international window. The 3rd choice in a position should be able to offer adequate cover.

phog · 03-12-2013 08:16PM

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

neither casey or scannell are in the academy, both are registered for the heinken cup and are on development contracts, both were chose ahead of henry and rael, both are highly rated and experienced hookers, who are ready for the step up.. you would think as a munster fan you'd be excited about this but apparently your not.

Highly rated? Where are you getting this from?

Foxtrol wrote: »

Why would he? He had his 2nd and 3rd choice available for nearly every game in the interim and the medical joker was already approved; they’re just finalizing the contract/work permit.

We don’t know because again Munster have been left in a situation where they have young lads who are 3rd choice but have been given no first team experience.

Because like Muster, Leinster could lose a hooker overnight and as you say it's almost criminal that the coach hasn't taken steps to have experienced players ready to take the step up.

Foxtrol · 03-12-2013 08:24PM

phog wrote: »

Because like Muster, Leinster could lose a hooker overnight and as you say it's almost criminal that the coach hasn't taken steps to have experienced players ready to take the step up.

They already have a hooker coming in to replace Strauss so there is no need to throw a 22 year old LH convert or a 20 year old into game time, how do you not understand this is different than the situation at Munster? Penney has left Munster in a situation where no one knows who their 3rd choice is and both candidates have practically no experience and it’s not the first time this has been an issue over the last year or even currently in other positions.

It's madness how you keep pointing the finger at other provinces without looking at the mess of a situation the coach has left yours in.

CatFromHue · 03-12-2013 08:25PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Dundon was found in the AIL while Sexton was contracted to Leinster so he was definitely ahead of him at one point. Either would be a solid 4th choice with more experience than either of the Munster 3rd choices at the minute.

I dunno to be honest.

They both made their Senior debut in 10/11 but Sexton only made 1 sub appearance compared to Dundon's 4. The next season Sexton only made 1 more sub appearance compared to Dundon's 5.

In relation to the Senior team Dundon has always been ahead of Sexton gametime wise.

CatFromHue · 03-12-2013 08:33PM

shuffol wrote: »

Teams should be able to cope with one injury in a position without having to revert to a medical joker, I can understand Leinsters need being a bit greater as they'll be without 2 players during an international window. The 3rd choice in a position should be able to offer adequate cover.

Munster would be able to cope as long as Varley isn't called up for Ireland.

The problem is though it's a very strong possibility that he will be. Strauss is out for the season and Best is not expected to play any rugby until mid to late January but Ulster don't play a game after 18 Jan until 7 Feb and Ireland play the first 6N game on 2nd Feb.

In all likelihood Varley is going to be called up to Ireland for the start of the 6N which will leave Munster without their first and second choice Hookers 3 games in the Rabo in February.

Foxtrol · 03-12-2013 08:43PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Munster would be able to cope as long as Varley isn't called up for Ireland.

The problem is though it's a very strong possibility that he will be. Strauss is out for the season and Best is not expected to play any rugby until mid to late January but Ulster don't play a game after 18 Jan until 7 Feb and Ireland play the first 6N game on 2nd Feb.

In all likelihood Varley is going to be called up to Ireland for the start of the 6N which will leave Munster without their first and second choice Hookers 3 games in the Rabo in February.

With that timetable at worst Best should be well able to bench after being fully fit two weeks before the 6 nations start. There’s also a Wolfhound game the 25th of January for gametime. I can see him being called up but released and he definitely wouldn’t come under any player welfare issues like Cronin will.

CatFromHue · 03-12-2013 08:49PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

With that timetable at worst Best should be well able to bench after being fully fit two weeks before the 6 nations start. There’s also a Wolfhound game the 25th of January for gametime. I can see him being called up but released and he definitely wouldn’t come under any player welfare issues like Cronin will.

They said mid to late Jan so the dates are fairly fluid.

It could work out Best is back in mid Jan and subs for Ulster against Leicester but equally it could be that he isn't back until the start of Feb meaning he'd have no game time if needed for Ireland.

phog · 03-12-2013 09:17PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

They already have a hooker coming in to replace Strauss so there is no need to throw a 22 year old LH convert or a 20 year old into game time, how do you not understand this is different than the situation at Munster? Penney has left Munster in a situation where no one knows who their 3rd choice is and both candidates have practically no experience and it’s not the first time this has been an issue over the last year or even currently in other positions.

It's madness how you keep pointing the finger at other provinces without looking at the mess of a situation the coach has left yours in.

Yet, other posters are claiming Munster are best placed of the two provinces to go without a medical joker as they have highly rated replacements.

If this was a short term replacement I'd have no issue using the two guys but from what Thomond2006 has predicted this is a season ending injury, there isn't a hope in hell anyone could have prepared either of the hookers to be ready to step up for the remaining games and that's even excluding knock-out games.

CatFromHue · 03-12-2013 09:30PM

Another thing to think about is who can Munster even get at this stage?

Edit: Just looking at the Hookers were were released by their Super Rugby team last season and so are without a club are:

Quentin MacDonald, though he's meant to be coming to Leinster
Andrew Hore, who's announced his retirement.
Jason Rutledge, also released by The Highlanders.
Luke Holmes, who was released by the Waratahs.

Of them who'd be better than Casey or Scannel I don't know. Rutledge would certainly on paper be anyway as he's 114 caps for the Southland ITM team and 64 caps for the Highanders Super Rugby team.

Hagz · 03-12-2013 09:38PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Another thing to think about is who can Munster even get at this stage?

Quentin McDonald?

Howard Juneau · 03-12-2013 09:40PM

Andrew Hore

Foxtrol · 03-12-2013 09:43PM

phog wrote: »

Yet, other posters are claiming Munster are best placed of the two provinces to go without a medical joker as they have highly rated replacements.

If this was a short term replacement I'd have no issue using the two guys but from what Thomond2006 has predicted this is a season ending injury, there isn't a hope in hell anyone could have prepared either of the hookers to be ready to step up for the remaining games and that's even excluding knock-out games.

Munster are on paper/reputation in a much better position to weather the injury to their starter than Leinster are, the problem is we have no idea if the guys are or aren’t ready because both of the candidates for #3 hooker spot have not been given any first team experience by Penney.

Off the top of my head this issue has raised itself previously when it came to OH, LH and TH, you can’t be continuously expecting the IRFU to bail your team out if you have no depth past one injury due to the coach hasnt even attempted to give game time to your #3 option.

jm08 · 03-12-2013 10:35PM

Stephen Moore :P

Has said he would fancy playing for Munster.

Laurie Fisher would probably let him come over for a few months.

phog · 03-12-2013 10:38PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Munster are on paper/reputation in a much better position to weather the injury to their starter than Leinster are, the problem is we have no idea if the guys are or aren’t ready because both of the candidates for #3 hooker spot have not been given any first team experience by Penney.

Off the top of my head this issue has raised itself previously when it came to OH, LH and TH, you can’t be continuously expecting the IRFU to bail your team out if you have no depth past one injury due to the coach hasnt even attempted to give game time to your #3 option.

To be fair to Penney he has given more gametime to younger players then most coaches, he has a very young squad, one that lacks experience in places so that makes his job of dipping players into matchday squads a tad harder. I'm sure Penney had plans to use either Casey or Scannell but Sherry's injury has left him in the lurch.

Afaik Munster never looked for the IRFU to allow us sign an NIQ OH or LH. In fact if the rumours are correct we released an experienced LH to keep Botha

Foxtrol · 03-12-2013 10:55PM

phog wrote: »

To be fair to Penney he has given more gametime to younger players then most coaches, he has a very young squad, one that lacks experience in places so that makes his job of dipping players into matchday squads a tad harder. I'm sure Penney had plans to use either Casey or Scannell but Sherry's injury has left him in the lurch.

Afaik Munster never looked for the IRFU to allow us sign an NIQ OH or LH. In fact if the rumours are correct we released an experienced LH to keep Botha

He has a very young squad but that has very little to do with himself, more so what he inherited.

Penney complained about not being allowed to sign an NIQ OH to the media (though that was contradicted by the CEO) after giving JJ very little game time last season as 3rd choice knowing full well ROG wasn’t going to be around for long.

If you have a long term injury to Cronin/Kilcoyne would you not be in a similar enough position as you are now at hooker?

CatFromHue · 03-12-2013 10:59PM

It wasn't known for sure if ROG was retiring or not until very late in the season. As far as I know anyway.

If he hadn't have been dropped for Ireland like he was who knows what would have happened!

I find it hard to criticise Penny here to be honest, I'm not sure what else he could do. Realistically the third choice player should be looking at game time in the A league and maybe be on the bench once or twice with the Seniors.

phog · 03-12-2013 11:06PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

It wasn't known for sure if ROG was retiring or not until very late in the season. As far as I know anyway.

If he hadn't have been dropped for Ireland like he was who knows what would have happened!

I find it hard to criticise Penny here to be honest, I'm not sure what else he could do. Realistically the third choice player should be looking at game time in the A league and maybe be on the bench once or twice with the Seniors.

Probably couldn't have put it better myself.

jacothelad · 03-12-2013 11:08PM

phog wrote: »

If it was as simple as that then there should be no need for medical jokers.

I look at Wales playing 2 20 year old props in a full international and then looking at us here blathering on about 23/4/5/ year olds needing experience. Same old bilge that leads us to playing dad's army sides with 'inexperienced'guys in their mid 20s sitting in the stands.

phog · 03-12-2013 11:15PM

jacothelad wrote: »

I look at Wales playing 2 20 year old props in a full international and then looking at us here blathering on about 23/4/5/ year olds needing experience. Same old bilge that leads us to playing dad's army sides with 'inexperienced'guys in their mid 20s sitting in the stands.

So it's only Munster want experienced players?

Mahatma Geansai · 03-12-2013 11:19PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

He has a very young squad but that has very little to do with himself, more so what he inherited.

Penney complained about not being allowed to sign an NIQ OH to the media (though that was contradicted by the CEO) after giving JJ very little game time last season as 3rd choice knowing full well ROG wasn’t going to be around for long.

If you have a long term injury to Cronin/Kilcoyne would you not be in a similar enough position as you are now at hooker?

Its well established that the Munster squad is very light in certain positions. Munster were unable to sign NIEs in any position besides wing because those positions were already tied up at the other provinces. Those dispensions look to have been loosened since.

There is only so much squad building that can be done before you're weakening rather than strengthening the squad. We are light at LH, but that is largely due to losing Horan and WdP last season. There was a lot of talk that we would be in a very bad place this year as Cronin had only featured twice for the senior team before this season. The management team believed that Cronin would be well able to make the step up from the A team, and he has impressed more than anyone has expected.

Similarly, two hookers were left go to Connacht last season, and I trust that Casey will be able to make the step up if required. We're not in a great position, but no youngster who has been called upon since Penney has taken charge, has left the team down.

I'd much rather Munster face into a season with Casey as second choice hooker than going down the path of recruiting experienced NIEs who aren't completely necessary.

Fireball07 · 03-12-2013 11:30PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you have a long term injury to Cronin/Kilcoyne would you not be in a similar enough position as you are now at hooker?

It'd be worse imo. I mean we have Ryan, but he's a TH predominantly.

I actually have faith in Casey and Scannell tbh. They've both been highly-rated at underage levels...and realistically, we're not going to get a replacement for Sherry before next weekend anyway, even if we were allowed.

They were both included in the HC squad at the start of the season, they were intended to be 3rd-choice. It mightn't be ideal, I'd have given one of them gametime before this, but I'm sure other teams have players of a similar age/experience coming in.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

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