Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

teacherhead · 03-12-2013 08:56PM

ethical wrote: »

Is it not rather sad the amount of bullying that is going on in schools at the moment from management,JMB,NAPD,RED RUAIRÍ et al...............................and yet the ordinary teacher has to preach anti-bullying to students at every opportunity.Just waiting now for the Principal to tell the staff,a la last year,to go to a certain establishment in town for a Christmas lunch........and pay for it themselves!!!!!.This happened last year and nearly all staff were bullied into doing it....................................

i really cant see what your Christmas party has to do with haddington road.

anyway, rurai is really losing the run of himself throwing threats around left right and centre. The problem is that very many of us will listen to the headlines and ignore the detail. For a profession concerned with cultivating good learning habits we are very bad at learning ourselves.

solerina · 03-12-2013 08:57PM

I think its looking more and more likely that a yes vote is going to happen (I posted my no vote today, as I cant think of anything worse than HRA being passed). In my school I think there are very few people actually talking about the ballot and those that are all seem to think yes is the way to go...management isn't helping as they keep going on about how it will be better for us in the long run (both ASTI, so how do they figure that)...someone needs to get the word out ....and fast that NO is the only way forward and not backward !!!

picturehangup · 03-12-2013 09:02PM

ASTI member here, and a strong 'No' voter, will NOT change, even though I could potentially identified as an 'ex quota' in one of the 48 or so schools in yesterday's indorag. It would seem, according to km 79 and rossean's posts, that Pat King et al. have assumed more of a mediating/bargaining role between its members and government, rather than protecting the vital conditions of its members. Because, when they are gone, it will take another 30 years or so to reclaim them.
However, it seems they hunting with the fox and running with hound, speaking and talking from both sides of their mouths, however, it is blatantly clear they are in bed with Ruairi, fighting his cause, but they are most welcome to him.
Please, please people, do not be scared to stand up for your rights. We are the last standing few of an otherwise spineless nation, where democracy is dying a faster death than that bloody tiger.
RQ is NOT for the good of education in this country, and will continue to ravage and pillage as unless SOMEONE stands up for what is right. If a YES vote prevails, I am leaving ASTI.
Poor show, ASTI. Saying one thing officially, doing another behind the scenes. Two-faced, I say.

ethical · 03-12-2013 09:28PM

Stop the defeatism, it has to be a big 'No' again, Quinn, Pat King et al will be on their big fat pensions (retiring next yr is Pat while Red Ruairí will be side lined and will not run again) while the rest of us will be working in burnt out conditions for the next 30 years, chances are we will be all dead before then if this hra2 is bullied through. IT HAS TO BE A 'NO' AGAIN.

Mod edit: Please don't use that much caps in a post, its very difficult to read and looks like you are yelling at us. Thanks

Caiseoipe19 · 03-12-2013 10:02PM

We had the president of the ASTI in to talk to us. She did everything in her power to scare us to vote YES, apart from actually tell us to. Telling us all the repercussions etc. etc. THen when asked "So if this is the case why are ye recommending a NO vote again?" She clarified that it was the CIC that voted to the recommend a NO vote, and they did this because they felt enough is enough. Then she went back to telling us how they had gotten every last thing they could out of talks and that Ruairí intends to tear up FEMPI in the near future but that he can't until we agree to HRA, as he will need it to deal with us if we vote NO again.

Peter Flynt · 03-12-2013 10:07PM

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

We had the president of the ASTI in to talk to us. She did everything in her power to scare us to vote YES, apart from actually tell us to. Telling us all the repercussions etc. etc. THen when asked "So if this is the case why are ye recommending a NO vote again?" She clarified that it was the CIC that voted to the recommend a NO vote, and they did this because they felt enough is enough. Then she went back to telling us how they had gotten every last thing they could out of talks and that Ruairí intends to tear up FEMPI in the near future but that he can't until we agree to HRA, as he will need it to deal with us if we vote NO again.

Brilliant.

The ASTI leadership assuming a mandate they've no right to assume. Effectively ignoring the elected members of CEC.

Remind me again who's paying their wages?

Rossdoc81 · 03-12-2013 10:26PM

People are getting very defeatist around here. Today I talked to 12 people in our school. All 12 are voting no. Three of them voted yes the last time, because they didn't really know much about HRA. This time they have educated themselves and have switched to no.

A good few people have gone extremely militant because of Quinns bullying tactics lately. Some calling for 3 day strikes when it is voted down. On the last vote there wasn't much talk about HRA in the staffroom, but I'd say the vote was 50-50. People are way more clued in this time around, everyone saying no so far, and alot of them very angry. Good stuff!

rossean · 03-12-2013 10:29PM

Can somebody clarify what the situation will be regarding future industrial action if this rubbish goes ahead? Would we be totally prevented from taking a stand against future initiatives we disagree with?

ethical · 03-12-2013 10:34PM

The thing to remember here is that not only are we giving up our conditions we are giving up our right to any sort of industrial action in the future...............if this goes through we would be better off in communist Russia as we would have more rights!!

Peter Flynt · 03-12-2013 10:36PM

Regarding the great PISA results. . .

Interestingly RTE interviewed TUI general secretary John MacGabhann and ignored the ASTI [the only teaching union in the country that deals exclusively with 15 year olds who did the PISA assessments] representatives.

Thanks for the solidarity John.

God they're so tedious and predictably boring in FG/Labour/RTE/Independent/Newstalk/Denis O'Brien land

I also believe that these very good results create a huge amount of leverage for the ASTI. The message we should be sending out is that we want to be even better and achieve more with our students. . . and that is impossible when the profession is being spat upon by the likes of Quinn who is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

MacGyver007 · 03-12-2013 10:37PM

Rossdoc81 wrote: »

People are getting very defeatist around here. Today I talked to 12 people in our school. All 12 are voting no. Three of them voted yes the last time, because they didn't really know much about HRA. This time they have educated themselves and have switched to no.

A good few people have gone extremely militant because of Quinns bullying tactics lately. Some calling for 3 day strikes when it is voted down. On the last vote there wasn't much talk about HRA in the staffroom, but I'd say the vote was 50-50. People are way more clued in this time around, everyone saying no so far, and alot of them very angry. Good stuff!

Same in my school. Our steward held a mock HRA secret ballot before the CEC meeting recently and of the 60 who voted to accept HRA, about 50 voted NO. The threats issued in recent days sound like acts of desperate people. We can return a significant NO vote; we need to keep HRA as the topic of conversation in staffrooms around the country. More importantly, we have to get the vote out. We have a "postbox" in our staffroom, where people can drop in their votes. At the end of each day our steward posts them at the local post office.

Someone sent me on this quote, attributed to Abraham Lincoln. I think it is very apt:

“Elections belong to the people. It's their decision. If they decide to turn their back on the fire and burn their behinds, then they will just have to sit on their blisters.”

The TUI and INTO are doing just that. Please God we will not have to.

acequion · 03-12-2013 11:35PM

Just back from a branch meeting and feeling very demoralised. Not only did many announce their intentions to vote yes, but were also quite aggressive towards the no advocates. Some criticised the militant and left wing elements [as if that is a problem in Ireland] while others predicted the great apocalypse as in "we'll be slaughtered","we'll be hung out to dry". Someone even said [metaphorically] that "we'll be left go hungry as in 1913". I almost expected to see posters of feckin Sadam Hussein dressed up as Ruari on the walls. Please!!!

Obviously there were those of us very vocal in advocating a no and many who just listened, but the vibe wasn't good and quite frankly, I'd be very worried.:(

Boober Fraggle · 03-12-2013 11:43PM

All very negative in my staffroom too. I was asked today if I was going to opt in or out of s and s. Nobody was contemplating a no vote.

Inspector Coptoor · 03-12-2013 11:46PM

I'm voting no & I'm recruiting as many as I can.

However, lots of possible no voters aren't even in the union due to apathy towards a union that doesn't represent my generation.

acequion · 03-12-2013 11:48PM

There also seems to be creeping in now an acceptance of the new junior cycle, as in "we must embrace change", "we must go along with this now and get adequate training". Such utter bull****e!! Today's PISA results gave a whopping endorsement of our education system and one point I noticed when I read the results was that "consistency" was noted throughout Ireland. That, as we know full well, is thanks to our anonymous state exams. Yet here are people getting all bright eyed and bushy tail about "embracing change" as if we were just changing the shop display in our local Dunnes.

I despair both of and for this nation. I really do!! Rant over.:mad:

Pwpane · 04-12-2013 01:19AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm voting no & I'm recruiting as many as I can.

However, lots of possible no voters aren't even in the union due to apathy towards a union that doesn't represent my generation.

I object to this.

Unions are made up of the people in them. If these people aren't in the union, how can they possibly protest that it doesn't represent them??

They are not possible 'no' voters or 'yes' voters because they don't want to vote! They want to ride on the backs of those who pay their union dues, take the flak and walk the picket line. They take any benefit while looking down their noses at union members and complain vociferously when there is no benefit accruing.

Maybe we should all apologise to 'your generation' for not looking after them while they stand on the outside looking disdainfully in?

Or maybe they should apologise to us for leaving our meetings empty and powerless, our marches thin and unimpressive, and our ballots half answered.

The word I do agree with in your post is 'apathy'. Apathy is a fault of theirs, not of ours.

Inspector Coptoor · 04-12-2013 01:22AM

Object away.

I'm vocalizing their opinion for the benefit of people on the thread.

The union leadership are not representing the interests of the profession, especially it's newest entrants, who've never "left you at a pocket line"

endakenny · 04-12-2013 02:07AM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What will happen now is that the ASTI might announce that is it possible they will direct their members to not participate in S&S on 17 January and thereafter if Haddington Road is rejected.

The JMB and NAPD will then announce they'll have to close schools etc. . .

....unless the Department gets external personnel to do supervision. Substitute teachers could still be brought in to do substitution.

The Government can bring in legislation to speed-up the vetting process for candidates for supervision.

Larkinsghost · 04-12-2013 09:01AM

Anyone who feels they would like to do more for a no vote please PM Me, In relation to the new entrants-no imoprovements in salary scale would have been achieved without a Union. I know the new scale is dependent on HR but trust me this dispute will end in talks and the new scale (improved) will be back on agenda. When I say this dispute will end-Im hoping not with this vote.
I was temporary for 10 years. It deeply affected me. screwed with my life but the union is the only way forward for you

However for me after 10 years active service in ASTI /CEC/Branch-I will probably quit if HR passes. We need a longer dispute to get a better deal on JC.

I know what I have said above might be confusing but its a confusing time.

No voters please contact me. PM. We have work to do.

tosh999 · 04-12-2013 11:37AM

A vote No will probably result in strike action. Once ASTI go out on strike we will have to stay out because schools cannot operate without S and S.

Strike action will result in a loss of pay, on top of the loss of the S and S payment.

For many teachers this is a considerable issue.

Haddington Road will unravel accross the whole public sector if we gain any concessions.

Hobsons Choice.

Peter Flynt · 04-12-2013 11:46AM

tosh999 wrote: »

A vote No will probably result in strike action. Once ASTI go out on strike we will have to stay out because schools cannot operate without S and S.

Strike action will result in a loss of pay, on top of the loss of the S and S payment.

For many teachers this is a considerable issue.

Haddington Road will unravel accross the whole public sector if we gain any concessions.

Hobsons Choice.

There won't be strikes.

If the ASTI were to vote NO and declare that they are not to do S&S then school managements have ONE month to come up with a solution to S&S.

They could employ others to do the work.

Let's see how many members of the public are prepared to do S&S for free then.

tosh999 · 04-12-2013 12:02PM

Well lets say we do not strike.

The FEMPI legislation mandates the Govt to change our contracts. The probability is that this will happen to include S and S as part of our contract. If there is a refusal to carry out our revised contract then we are in breach of it - perhaps they will dock us all the equivalent of the present allowance? What will we do then?

One way or another, in my opinion, a vote No will result in an even further financial hit.

acequion · 04-12-2013 12:43PM

tosh999 wrote: »

Well lets say we do not strike.

The FEMPI legislation mandates the Govt to change our contracts. The probability is that this will happen to include S and S as part of our contract. If there is a refusal to carry out our revised contract then we are in breach of it - perhaps they will dock us all the equivalent of the present allowance? What will we do then?

One way or another, in my opinion, a vote No will result in an even further financial hit.

Yes you're right, it will. But did we not realise that when we voted by 65 per cent for industrial action last September? Or were we only bluffing? And do we give in now and enable them to further destroy our pay and conditions?

I'm personally enraged by the bullying that has gone on over the past few days and am quite determined to face down this fascist style government. We will lose pay while on strike and we may or may not gain long term. But at least we'll be standing up for democracy and the integrity of our profession. And that in itself is a victory for me.

jimbo28 · 04-12-2013 12:45PM

I object to this.

Unions are made up of the people in them. If these people aren't in the union, how can they possibly protest that it doesn't represent them??

They are not possible 'no' voters or 'yes' voters because they don't want to vote! They want to ride on the backs of those who pay their union dues, take the flak and walk the picket line. They take any benefit while looking down their noses at union members and complain vociferously when there is no benefit accruing.

Maybe we should all apologise to 'your generation' for not looking after them while they stand on the outside looking disdainfully in?

Or maybe they should apologise to us for leaving our meetings empty and powerless, our marches thin and unimpressive, and our ballots half answered.

The word I do agree with in your post is 'apathy'. Apathy is a fault of theirs, not of ours.

Some of us choose not to be apart of the unions and therefore will complain neither way on the outcome! and you...........pretentious is not the word, i wont lower the tone by calling you what i think you are with a statement like that:rolleyes:

solerina · 04-12-2013 02:01PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm voting no & I'm recruiting as many as I can.

However, lots of possible no voters aren't even in the union due to apathy towards a union that doesn't represent my generation.

The Union doesn't represent any generation....they are only looking after themselves and their fat salaries !!!

Moody_mona · 04-12-2013 02:19PM

I've sent away my no vote for what it's worth. I really hope the recent bullying doesn't sway people, but I'm afraid that it will.

endakenny · 04-12-2013 04:29PM

I believe that most ASTI members are permanent teachers in relatively large schools, which would be at no risk of permanent closure. Therefore, if the ASTI accepts HRA, it would be not because of the threat of redundancies; it would be because most ASTI members regard going on strike as unhelpful and don't want withdrawal from S&S to cause the closure of schools.

The ASTI leadership put ASTI members in a difficult position by having the ballot on industrial action include the possibility of a strike and withdrawal from S&S (which would be regarded as a strike under FEMPI). If the leadership had the ballot state that the industrial action would consist only of refusal to attend JC curriculum in-service and withdrawal from the CPA/HRA hours then most ASTI members would be willing to reject HRA again.

gammy_knees · 04-12-2013 06:50PM

Sounds good doesn't it. Stand at the gate for a few days. The big knobs will then gather round, yank the iron out of the fire and it'll all be sorted.(paraphrasing Blackadder).
Well someone mentioned about their staff talking about a 3 day strike. What will that achieve? I'll tell you. A loss of 3 days pay and service with nothing gained, that's all. And so much for sending out a signal to govt. They're not going to budge on this.

Peter Flynt, point of info. How do you know management have ONE month to sort it out? Please post up the link to the relevant document. The DES will let it rumble on so as to get public opinion against the ASTI. One of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember the last industrial action in early 2000's and that's when there was a few bob around!!! And they have used FEMPI already, I know, I'm down money since July 1.

A question I've asked many a time here which no one has answered at all at al at all: Who here is really Vita Cortex tough and willing to stay on the picket line for the noble cause of teaching especially if you have (m)any financial commitments? A lot of "hold me back" going on here I suspect.
[Anyway, I do realise that any dissenting voices to a No vote are not welcome here and are usually labelled trolls, castigated, etc. Sorry to piss on that parade once again.]

Peter Flynt · 04-12-2013 07:28PM

gammy_knees wrote: »

Sounds good doesn't it. Stand at the gate for a few days. The big knobs will then gather round, yank the iron out of the fire and it'll all be sorted.(paraphrasing Blackadder).
Well someone mentioned about their staff talking about a 3 day strike. What will that achieve? I'll tell you. A loss of 3 days pay and service with nothing gained, that's all. And so much for sending out a signal to govt. They're not going to budge on this.

Peter Flynt, point of info. How do you know management have ONE month to sort it out? Please post up the link to the relevant document. The DES will let it rumble on so as to get public opinion against the ASTI. One of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember the last industrial action in early 2000's and that's when there was a few bob around!!! And they have used FEMPI already, I know, I'm down money since July 1.

A question I've asked many a time here which no one has answered at all at al at all: Who here is really Vita Cortex tough and willing to stay on the picket line for the noble cause of teaching especially if you have (m)any financial commitments? A lot of "hold me back" going on here I suspect.
[Anyway, I do realise that any dissenting voices to a No vote are not welcome here and are usually labelled trolls, castigated, etc. Sorry to piss on that parade once again.]

It's not really a question of being labelled a troll.

You're spreading deliberate misinformation on what you think MIGHT happen.

Naturally, of course, you're taking the worse case scenario to back up your YES campaign.

The ASTI vote is announced on 19 Dec. Payment for S&S stops on 17 January.

To all posters here - Pat King once told a meeting I attended that the ASTI will NOT BE GOING OUT ON STRIKE.

So gammy if you have any evidence to the contrary . . let's read it.

There are alternatives - Perhaps S&S could be done but with a non-cooperation with inspections.

Icsics · 04-12-2013 07:30PM

I remember the 2001 strike, INTO friends got paid the S&S before we did, on the back of our action! I've voted NO, again, I am just not prepared to serve up,what's left of our working conditions, on a platter for this Govt. PT meeting today at normal hours, no parents complaining & staff won't be exhausted 2mw, just like a normal workplace. Because remember, that's what schools are for us, a workplace, we must defend our conditions! NO NO NO!!!

Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

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