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A discussion on the rules.

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Comments

  • #1082
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    rodento wrote: »
    Can a sub section be created for northern politics, the topic has completely hijacked the main section over the last year

    Partition?
    One vote of objection to the new 'Northern Ireland' forum here.

    This place reminds me of USI conferences year's ago, motion after motion and debate after debate about Israel, South Africa etc and other trendy causes but as soon as somebody raises something like library space in a regional tech they are booted out. :rolleyes:


  • #1083
    moxin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    From the forum charter
    Please note that any post deemed to incite hatred or promote violence will be dealt with in the strictest possible manner. Whatever your politics we expect discussion in a manner fit for adults, but first and foremost human beings.
    Celebration/promotion/triumphing of murder, violence or aggression will result in an immediate banning from the forum and deletion of your posts.

    Can this also apply to those defending or supporting state violence on civilians?

    Actions by non-state forces have been condemned and any posts promoting those actions have been dealt with but this has not been applied to posts who defend or otherwise support state violence on civilians. Examples would be those posts defending the killings by state forces of civilians in NI, Syria, Iraq etc.


  • #1084
    Tramps Like Us
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Tramps Like Us


    NI forum was a disaster on p.ie.

    There is a lot of overlap on certain topics, take narrow water bridge, where does that go? smithwick tribunal? Threads about Sinn Féin?

    Hopefully it doesnt end up that anything which mentions the north is stuck away into the "Northern Ireland" forum


  • #1085
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Tramps Like Us wrote: »
    NI forum was a disaster on p.ie.

    There is a lot of overlap on certain topics, take narrow water bridge, where does that go? smithwick tribunal? Threads about Sinn Féin?

    Hopefully it doesnt end up that anything which mentions the north is stuck away into the "Northern Ireland" forum

    We will be trying not to take too narrow an interpretation of it.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1086
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    We will be trying not to take too narrow an interpretation of it.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Can I ask what changed recently that has made a NI politics forum viable without much discussion from the normal user AFAIK (could have missed a thread in Feedback), in comparison to the (numerous) other times it was mooted and rejected where there was a lot more ordinary user participation.

    A specific question about the charter.

    No abusive, inflammatory, or broad-sweeping prejudicial comments or generalisations against persons or groups based upon race, gender, sexual identity, religion, ethnicity, or nationality (including links).

    Who strictly is this going to be applied, if a user says that the PUL community isn't as interested in education and provides a link showing the differences between educational attainment rates is that a generalisation

    Taken from a different forum so I understand different rules apply but would a post like this be acceptable in the NI sub-forum.
    [-0-] wrote: »
    Source: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/party-conference-teach-creationism-in-science-class-40-of-dup-29781222.html



    Exposes the dark ages mentality of the DUP.

    Or is the users interpretation of the DUP conference survey worded in too inflammatory a way


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  • #1087
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Can I ask what changed recently that has made a NI politics forum viable without much discussion from the normal user AFAIK (could have missed a thread in Feedback), in comparison to the (numerous) other times it was mooted and rejected where there was a lot more ordinary user participation.

    We're very happy to have a discussion on the value of the NI forum, but we decided that this time, we would have the discussion on the basis of the evidence resulting from actually having one, rather than the rather ideological grounds people have presented in the past for not having one - such as "separating NI discussion is de facto recognition of UK rule!".

    The reason for the change from a theoretical basis to a practical one is that NI threads have recently increasingly been crowding out other threads in the main Politics forum - and they are of interest to a subset only of our posters.

    Our choices therefore seemed to be between creating a NI forum in Politics and Politics becoming a NI forum. We have chosen the former, and we'll see how it goes.
    A specific question about the charter.

    No abusive, inflammatory, or broad-sweeping prejudicial comments or generalisations against persons or groups based upon race, gender, sexual identity, religion, ethnicity, or nationality (including links).

    Who strictly is this going to be applied, if a user says that the PUL community isn't as interested in education and provides a link showing the differences between educational attainment rates is that a generalisation

    Taken from a different forum so I understand different rules apply but would a post like this be acceptable in the NI sub-forum.
    Exposes the dark ages mentality of the DUP.

    Or is the users interpretation of the DUP conference survey worded in too inflammatory a way

    The DUP is a political group, not "based upon race, gender, sexual identity, religion, ethnicity, or nationality" but on a self-chosen perceived community of interest. As such, the ban does not apply.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1088
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    We're very happy to have a discussion on the value of the NI forum, but we decided that this time, we would have the discussion on the basis of the evidence resulting from actually having one, rather than the rather ideological grounds people have presented in the past for not having one - such as "separating NI discussion is de facto recognition of UK rule!".

    The reason for the change from a theoretical basis to a practical one is that NI threads have recently increasingly been crowding out other threads in the main Politics forum - and they are of interest to a subset only of our posters.

    Our choices therefore seemed to be between creating a NI forum in Politics and Politics becoming a NI forum. We have chosen the former, and we'll see how it goes.

    The DUP is a political group, not "based upon race, gender, sexual identity, religion, ethnicity, or nationality" but on a self-chosen perceived community of interest. As such, the ban does not apply.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    So I presume the comment about the PUL community would also fine as long as its backed up by facts?

    Yeah I understand the difference but I am trying to tease them out and understand where the line is in practicality, for example in AH hours the above applied but it was ok to criticize religions themselves, presume with the wondering used above this wouldn't be the case here as they are "groups based upon religion".

    In practicality as well in terms of moderation would a thread like that DUP one be allowed to stand (I understand it wouldn't be actioned under the rule I highlighted) as I would imagine it would cause a lot of "trench warfare"


  • #1089
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    So I presume the comment about the PUL community would also fine as long as its backed up by facts?

    Yeah I understand the difference but I am trying to tease them out and understand where the line is in practicality, for example in AH hours the above applied but it was ok to criticize religions themselves, presume with the wondering used above this wouldn't be the case here as they are "groups based upon religion".

    In practicality as well in terms of moderation would a thread like that DUP one be allowed to stand (I understand it wouldn't be actioned under the rule I highlighted) as I would imagine it would cause a lot of "trench warfare"

    Which we'd deal with on its own terms. As to the criticism of religious groups, we're not all that hard and fast on that one, to be honest, because unlike race, gender, colour, ethnicity etc, religion is partly voluntary - although only partly. We wouldn't be happy to see someone saying "all Catholics are like this", but largely as a result of practicality, again, because as you say it would generate a lot of heat and pretty much no light.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1090
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    The northern forum is a horrendous idea. so many of the issues discussed in "northern" threads are actually all Ireland issues. are we to see sub forums set up now for each and every region of the country if more people start talking about them? Surely the fact there are so many "northern" threads is an indication of the interest in that aspect of irish politics.
    anyway, on a practical level this is idiotic and probably unworkable (will threads be moved back and forth out of specific forums if an issue strays in and out of the south.) On a personal level i actually find it kind of offensive. Shove all those smelly nordies off to one side type of thing. i cant help but shake the feeling it was created to appease the ideological views of some. i'll certainly be avoiding using it as best i can.


  • #1091
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    The northern forum is a horrendous idea. so many of the issues discussed in "northern" threads are actually all Ireland issues. are we to see sub forums set up now for each and every region of the country if more people start talking about them? Surely the fact there are so many "northern" threads is an indication of the interest in that aspect of irish politics.
    anyway, on a practical level this is idiotic and probably unworkable (will threads be moved back and forth out of specific forums if an issue strays in and out of the south.) On a personal level i actually find it kind of offensive. Shove all those smelly nordies off to one side type of thing. i cant help but shake the feeling it was created to appease the ideological views of some. i'll certainly be avoiding using it as best i can.

    It's a purely practical move, and we'll see how it goes. We won't be seeing the creation of other regional sub-forums, because as far as I'm aware no other region of Ireland has an equivalent set of issues.

    We will be putting NI threads into the forum if they're created outside. Attempts to make the system unworkable by, say, persistently trying to hijack other threads to "highlight" the perceived wrongness will simply be sanctioned.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • #1092
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    It's a purely practical move, and we'll see how it goes. We won't be seeing the creation of other regional sub-forums, because as far as I'm aware no other region of Ireland has an equivalent set of issues.

    We will be putting NI threads into the forum if they're created outside. Attempts to make the system unworkable by, say, persistently trying to hijack other threads to "highlight" the perceived wrongness will simply be sanctioned.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    I just looked through it and half the threads in it are all Ireland issues. how on earth is this practical? Its clearly ideological.


  • #1093
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I just looked through it and half the threads in it are all Ireland issues. how on earth is this practical? Its clearly ideological.

    Shrug. If I showed you the entire mod discussion, you wouldn't find a word of ideology in it. It's a practical move, which I suspect you dislike for ideological reasons.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1094
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Shrug. If I showed you the entire mod discussion, you wouldn't find a word of ideology in it. It's a practical move, which I suspect you dislike for ideological reasons.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    You havent addressed the issue about half the threads in it being all Ireland ones. how is this practical?


  • #1095
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    You havent addressed the issue about half the threads in it being all Ireland ones. how is this practical?

    That's our headache. But a change is as good as a rest.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1096
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's our headache. But a change is as good as a rest.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    So you arent going to address it then, youre just going to claim it's practical and then ignore any practical issues raised?


  • #1097
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    So you arent going to address it then, youre just going to claim it's practical and then ignore any practical issues raised?

    No, I'm going to see how the real practical issues pan out, rather than abandoning the idea because a small coterie of posters have ideological objections to it, or would draw the line somewhere completely different based, again, on their ideological position.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1098
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No, I'm going to see how the real practical issues pan out, rather than abandoning the idea because a small coterie of posters have ideological objections to it, or would draw the line somewhere completely different based, again, on their ideological position.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    You are again refusing to acknowledge a purely practical issue i have raised. ive made no secret i find this idea personally repugnant but that doesnt diminish the very practical point i have raised.


  • #1099
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    You are again refusing to acknowledge a purely practical issue i have raised. ive made no secret i find this idea personally repugnant but that doesnt diminish the very practical point i have raised.

    You haven't raised a practical point, you've pointed out that you disagree with the dividing line, so that the NI forum contains issues that you think are all-island ones.

    While we may not be able to draw the line to everybody's satisfaction all the time, we will try to do so, and your disagreement has been noted. I'm not sure which ones you consider "all-Ireland" issues at present - these are the first page of threads:
    Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?
    Drive-by shootings by British Army in Northern Ireland
    Parades boost NI economy by £55million
    Nigel Dodds calls Sinn Fein "Failures and they know it"
    The disappeared
    Marian Price-McGlinchey guilty
    The policing you dont see- MI5 in Northern Ireland.
    Will there be serious problems in Northern Ireland if catholics become the majority??
    The Troubles II?
    The USA appoints "peace envoy" to "Northern Ireland".
    Loyalism in a United ireland
    Towards a United Ireland

    The last two are arguable plus "the disappeared", the rest aren't. But even those threads which are arguable in origin and intent have become NI discussion threads.

    So, no, this isn't a "practical issue", but simply your opinion on where the line should be drawn.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1100
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    You haven't raised a practical point, you've pointed out that you disagree with the dividing line, so that the NI forum contains issues that you think are all-island ones.

    No, I haven't, I have raised a very practical point and you have repeatedly dismissed it by referring to my own political viewpoint, a viewpoint I have specifically made sure was not at the centre of my claim.
    How can you claim that my concern that threads are being buried in an inappropriate forum is not a practical concern?
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    While we may not be able to draw the line to everybody's satisfaction all the time, we will try to do so, and your disagreement has been noted. I'm not sure which ones you consider "all-Ireland" issues at present - these are the first page of threads:

    I will highlight for you the issues that are all Ireland issues.
    Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?
    Drive-by shootings by British Army in Northern Ireland
    Parades boost NI economy by £55million
    Nigel Dodds calls Sinn Fein "Failures and they know it"
    The disappeared
    Marian Price-McGlinchey guilty
    The policing you dont see- MI5 in Northern Ireland.
    Will there be serious problems in Northern Ireland if catholics become the majority??
    The Troubles II?
    The USA appoints "peace envoy" to "Northern Ireland".
    Loyalism in a United ireland
    Towards a United Ireland

    Scofflaw wrote: »
    The last two are arguable plus "the disappeared", the rest aren't. But even those threads which are arguable in origin and intent have become NI discussion threads.

    The ones I have highlighted are overtly, undeniably, all Ireland issues. The rest are issues that should be of serious concern to all the people of Ireland and have attracted posters from north and south.
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    So, no, this isn't a "practical issue", but simply your opinion on where the line should be drawn.

    It clearly, patently is not. You have claimed this is a practical move and every time I have raised a practical concern you have dismissed it on the basis of my political beliefs.
    I say again, putting the discriminatory nature of this issue aside, threads are being buried in an inappropriate forum. That's as practical as it gets.

    I'd also point out of those 12 threads, just six of them have been active in the last three months. Are you really suggesting that just six active threads, three of those on blatantly all Ireland issues, were clogging up the main politics page to such an extent that this slap in the face was warranted?

    [/QUOTE]


  • #1101
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    I am completely with Crooked Jack on all the points he makes on this, it is a ridiculous move and the notion that a listed forum can be 'clogged up' is ridiculous also.

    Scroll the list and click on what interests you.

    It is clearly evident in any contact I have had with mods that they are 'fed up' with the subject matter and have a preference for issues further afield, to do this as a remedy is crazy and quite frankly disturbing, if not insulting, on an Irish politics forum.


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  • #1102
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Nothing prevents posters "from the South" entering the NI forum. It's a mouse-click, not a border.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1103
    Villain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,732 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Nothing prevents posters "from the South" entering the NI forum. It's a mouse-click, not a border.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    I see the politics forum is as well modded as ever, a separate forum is a silly idea and justification of it being one click away is even worse.


  • #1104
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Nothing prevents posters "from the South" entering the NI forum. It's a mouse-click, not a border.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    So you're genuinely not going to engage with the issues I raised?
    I'm disappointed. I have issues with the attitudes of some of the mods on the site but I would have expected more from you.
    Why bother having a thread called "A Discussion on the Rules" if you arent willing to discuss them?

    Also, the point you made about it being a mouse click away is just as much a justification for not having a separate forum. In fact not having a separate forum makes it even easier to find the threads you want, as Happyman said, if it doesnt interest you just scroll on by.


  • #1105
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    So you're genuinely not going to engage with the issues I raised?
    I'm disappointed. I have issues with the attitudes of some of the mods on the site but I would have expected more from you.
    Why bother having a thread called "A Discussion on the Rules" if you arent willing to discuss them?

    Because, as I've said several times now, we're going to see how it works out. We're aware of all the theoretical issues, but we want to see how it works out practically. As such, I can only address the issue you raise from a theoretical point of view at this stage, and I've done so by noting that the issue you raise comes down to your personal opinion on the basis for deciding whether a thread goes in the forum or not, and noting in turn that we can't necessarily satisfy everyone's point of view on that. Rather than using your opinion as the dividing line, we'll see how it works out for the majority of posters over time.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Also, the point you made about it being a mouse click away is just as much a justification for not having a separate forum. In fact not having a separate forum makes it even easier to find the threads you want, as Happyman said, if it doesnt interest you just scroll on by.

    And scroll on, and on, because half the front page or more can consist of NI threads. We don't have economics or EU issues in the main forum either.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #1106
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Because, as I've said several times now, we're going to see how it works out. We're aware of all the theoretical issues, but we want to see how it works out practically. As such, I can only address the issue you raise from a theoretical point of view at this stage, and I've done so by noting that the issue you raise comes down to your personal opinion on the basis for deciding whether a thread goes in the forum or not, and noting in turn that we can't necessarily satisfy everyone's point of view on that. Rather than using your opinion as the dividing line, we'll see how it works out for the majority of posters over time.



    And scroll on, and on, because half the front page or more can consist of NI threads. We don't have economics or EU issues in the main forum either.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    I can see we're going round and round in circles here and you're intent on just dismissing everything I raise as my "opinions" so I'll just quickly address two points.
    It is not my opinion that threads dealing with dissident republicanism, Sinn Fein, the disappeared or a united Ireland, are all Ireland issues. That is indisputable fact.

    Secondly, as I already pointed out, just six of the threads that have been moved to this new forum have been active in the past three months. Of those, three of them are clearly all Ireland issues, leaving just three "northern" issues. How are three threads causing you to "scroll on and on."
    Even if there were a lot of threads on "the north" being started, surely that just shows that that's what people want to talk about.


  • #1107
    Silas Salmon Buckle
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Silas Salmon Buckle


    Nothing is stopping them continuing to talk about it, they have a whole subforum to talk about it now


  • #1108
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Nothing is stopping them continuing to talk about it, they have a whole subforum to talk about it now

    The point is that the sub forum is full of all ireland issues. It's unworkable. lets say a thread is started on Gerry Adams, SInn Fein President, Louth TD but one of those bloody nordies, where does that go?
    Add into the fact that this thing is totally unnecessary and just reeks of shoving the smelly nordies into a box so the real Irish people can talk about real Irish stuff and you can see why some people arent happy with it.
    Imagine starting a forum for black Irish people. Hey we know you're Irish but us white Irish people are sick of seeing all your black stuff pop up on the main page, so off you go into the wee quarantine zone we've set up


  • #1109
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    The point is that the sub forum is full of all ireland issues.
    According to you, six out of twelve are all-Ireland issues, so perhaps those could be put in the main forum and those that you didn't identify as all-Ireland kept in the NI sub-forum?

    Personally, I wouldn't see the sub-forum in terms of being regional/national, but that it represents a topic of political discussion that is popular enough to merit its own sub-forum.
    lets say a thread is started on Gerry Adams, SInn Fein President, Louth TD but one of those bloody nordies, where does that go?
    Depends which of those hats he's wearing is the subject of the thread, I'd imagine.
    Imagine starting a forum for black Irish people. Hey we know you're Irish but us white Irish people are sick of seeing all your black stuff pop up on the main page, so off you go into the wee quarantine zone we've set up.
    Why exactly would a Hiberno-African sub-forum be such a bad thing? The point of sub-forums is practical, to better group topics once they reach a certain level of popularity - that's why threads on the economy are in a sub-forum, because many want to discuss that (i.e. the financial crisis, the property bust, austerity and the like) rather than sift through threads on by-elections, Fine Gael internal politics or (dare I say it?) Northern Ireland.

    The only reason, I can think of, why a sub forum might not be ideal is if you're more concerned that the casual reader may not come across your thread and get to read your views on the subject. Is that your objection?


  • #1110
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #1111
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    Three merged, 1 unstuck. Not sure whether to keep the "Book Recommendations" thread stuck. Not sure about Politics Café either, although it does attract posts - more than Political Theory - so it's hardly dead yet.
    As an aside, maintaining standards would be easier if admins replaced chronically disengaged moderators with people who might actually contribute to the forum. Unfortunately, there is a long-standing "public sector" mentality among Politics mods, who expect to retain their positions for months or even years after their interest in the forum has evidently disappeared. It goes without saying that when half the moderating personnel are chronically absent or present only in a token way, the quality of the forum suffers.

    "Civil service mentality"? There aren't any benefits to being a moderator, as you know yourself, so we're hardly keeping anyone on the books to pad the payroll or for them to retain their access to the stationery cupboard. About the only thing modding offers is the heady pleasure of power, and if a mod is inactive, they're not actually getting that rush...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


This discussion has been closed.
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