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Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,598 ✭✭✭✭km79


    endakenny wrote: »
    Where does it say that the hours have to be made up?
    Do you think a situation will be accepted where tui and asti schools are in HRA but tui do all cp hours and asti don't? And some asti schools have done more than others ?
    33 hours are part of HRA . Now why do you think this matter has not been clarified ......?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,744 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    acequion wrote: »
    The threat of redundancies was successfully used to frighten a lot of TUI people into voting yes. Are we down to this now as well in ASTI!

    Its not a threat it's a reality, HRA provides protection outside that doesn't exist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,152 ✭✭✭acequion


    Villain wrote: »
    Its not a threat it's a reality, HRA provides protection outside that doesn't exist.

    The exact wording that's used to coax people,ie "offers protection". It offers the protection of a gaoler.Period.

    Also,the threat [and no it's not a reality as redundancies haven't actually happened,nor has anyone said with certainty that they will] was also there last time we went out to vote, and the time before that. So why turn it into an urgent issue now?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Villain wrote: »
    Its not a threat it's a reality, HRA provides protection outside that doesn't exist.

    We voted for CP1 and got shafted.
    We voted no for Cp2 with explicit outcomes and got told off for taking a 'choice'
    We voted no for HR again with the understanding that S&S would be paid...today RQ says that "theres no money to pay it you greedy scumbag teachers" [paraphrasing]

    The teaching profession has been flushed down the toilet by RQ with the media only to happy to jump on his coat tails and do his press secretaries work for him. Forget about public sentiment.

    How does HR come to our rescue? Might as well be waiting for the teaching council to defend the profession with their mighty newsletter and cheap plastic id card which I bin every year.

    The choice in the 'vote' is either a chocolate teapot or an ashtray on a motorbike really....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Is there a possibility of some ASTI members breaking away to form their own union in the event of the ASTI membership accepting HRA by a narrow majority?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭littlebsci


    endakenny wrote: »
    How did your former colleague manage to become a teacher with that level of intelligence?
    through yellow packing

    More than a little bit insulting!!

    As I said, the problem is that there are other members of staff in that school going around telling people that they will get paid if Haddington Rd is accepted. I acknowledge that my former colleague should have made an effort to inform themselves about the ins and outs of the agreement but let's face it, in a situation where someone else is preaching loudly (and incorrectly at that) around a staff room some people will believe what they hear repeatedly!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭lachin


    Hi all,

    I regularly read this forum. I am attending an Asti meeting tonight in which pay king will be present.

    I have voted no in each ballot so far and intend to vote no again. I think our union is spineless.

    What can I expect tonight? If the opportunity arises what should I be asking our so called leader?

    Thanks!

    Edit; spellcheck, that should read Pat King , how apt that predictive text read PAY king!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,598 ✭✭✭✭km79


    lachin wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I regularly read this forum. I am attending an Asti meeting tonight in which pay king will be present.

    I have voted no in each ballot so far and intend to vote no again. I think our union is spineless.

    What can I expect tonight? If the opportunity arises what should I be asking our so called leader?

    Thanks!

    Edit; spellcheck, that should read Pat King , how apt that predictive text read PAY king!
    Well I think that is more appropriate !
    We are also meeting him Monday.
    First question I'd ask him is to confirm that all CP hours will have to me made up between jan -may . They are keeping very quiet on this for obvious reasons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,152 ✭✭✭acequion


    lachin wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I regularly read this forum. I am attending an Asti meeting tonight in which pay king will be present.

    I have voted no in each ballot so far and intend to vote no again. I think our union is spineless.

    What can I expect tonight? If the opportunity arises what should I be asking our so called leader?

    Thanks!

    Edit; spellcheck, that should read Pat King , how apt that predictive text read PAY king!

    Thanks lachin. Two important questions come to mind. One is the legality of having to pay to opt out of S&S. There are many who say that this is in breach of EU working law as it is like having to pay to take a lunch break. Pat King and co are quick to say they're getting legal advise when it suits them to stall momentum of the no camp,so he should be asked if they have checked this one out, and if not,why not.

    Secondly,I'd ask about the 12 half in half out hours that were negotiated during benchmarking and that we got stuck with in addition to the 33 hours. They've not been mentioned anywhere,so he should be made to explain what the position is there and why that burden of hours can't be bundled into the 33 hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭losullivan


    Please ask him why ASTI have entered into exclusive talks with the Department on Junior Cert reform before we have had our 3rd ballot on Haddington rd. TUI have expressed concerns about these 'reforms' but they been excluded from these talks,why so? Are these talks a further attempt to get members to accept the HRA?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,598 ✭✭✭✭km79


    The one thing I hope Pat King takes home from these meetings is the utter disillusionment and anger amongst many teachers. He was completely dismissive of this when I put it to him via email.
    He said the CEC were a better representation of teachers than me


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    km79 wrote: »
    The one thing I hope Pat King takes home from these meetings is the utter disillusionment and anger amongst many teachers. He was completely dismissive of this when I put it to him via email.
    He said the CEC were a better representation of teachers than me

    He said what?? Thats ridiculous. And fairly rude tbh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,598 ✭✭✭✭km79


    He said what?? Thats ridiculous. And fairly rude tbh
    He also told me I was very undemocratic if I leave the union in the event of a yes vote.....the 3rd ballot on the the same thing!!!! As I said I'll be meeting him face to face Monday so we will see what he has to say


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    km79 wrote: »
    He also told me I was very undemocratic if I leave the union in the event of a yes vote.....the 3rd ballot on the the same thing!!!! As I said I'll be meeting him face to face Monday so we will see what he has to say

    Tell him democracy doesn't come into it as you cannot afford the five years of cuts he (and John White) has negotiated.

    If he starts blabbing on about Haddington Road being the lesser of two evils. . . Ask him if he wants to swap jobs . . and salaries!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85 ✭✭losullivan


    km79 wrote: »
    He also told me I was very undemocratic if I leave the union in the event of a yes vote.....the 3rd ballot on the the same thing!!!! As I said I'll be meeting him face to face Monday so we will see what he has to say

    I got the same reply. I would like to know why King believes a deal that only applies to 30% of our membership is democratic.Under this 'new deal' 70% of us would be stuck doing unpaid S&S with no option to opt out. The minority who will be allowed to make a choice will be stuck paying for the privilege of not working for free....Until retirement!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,152 ✭✭✭acequion


    He said what?? Thats ridiculous. And fairly rude tbh

    I got the same dismissive,rude replies to mails which I sent him earlier in this campaign.I no longer mail him as it's a waste of time. He's not interested in the concerns of the average Joe teacher and he wants to get us into HR asap so he can get back to sitting on his arse on his 130k salary. I reckon he never saw himself in this position,ie the GS of the only union outside HR and he's feeling the chill. The problem is that his lack of leadership may swing some voters towards yes as they feel rudderless. He's a bloody disgrace!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    acequion wrote: »
    I got the same dismissive,rude replies to mails which I sent him earlier in this campaign.I no longer mail him as it's a waste of time. He's not interested in the concerns of the average Joe teacher and he wants to get us into HR asap so he can get back to sitting on his arse on his 130k salary. I reckon he never saw himself in this position,ie the GS of the only union outside HR and he's feeling the chill. The problem is that his lack of leadership may swing some voters towards yes as they feel rudderless. He's a bloody disgrace!
    Surely, ASTI members know what's at stake. If they oppose the new JC assessment system then why would they vote Yes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    ASTI meets Joint Oireachtas education committee.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/junior-cycle-asti-1193153-Nov2013/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 647 ✭✭✭Terri26


    km79 wrote: »
    He also told me I was very undemocratic if I leave the union in the event of a yes vote.....the 3rd ballot on the the same thing!!!! As I said I'll be meeting him face to face Monday so we will see what he has to say


    lol surely yet another ballot is undemocratic! What a joke. These ballots cost in excess of 50k - they could hire well paid union officials/researchers for that!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭Rossdoc81


    My reasons for rejecting HRA:

    Croke Park hours will be here to stay. They are up for review soon and some people are saying they will try to incorporate posts into the Croke Park. This would be a dangerous precendent.

    We will have to make up all our missed Croke Park Hours between January and May which will mean lots of late evenings till 6pm.

    Compulsary free s+s will continue indefinetly. You are signing in for the rest of you career.

    Much less s+s hours for people on low hours that use them to boost there wages each week - talk to people in the TUI schools.

    29% of teachers are part time. This is the problem, not the 4 year CID issue. This is not being addressed.

    The new Junior Cert will go full steam ahead and we will not be able to challenge it.

    The 300 A posts is a a con as the B posts vacated by those who move up to A will not be filled.

    The Troika leave town in December and after that it will be difficult to leave Fempi on the statute books and use it against us.

    Compulsary redundancys would be a very serious and risky move on Ruari Quinns part. It would take him to war with ASTI, cause a huge backlash, massive disruption, and be the end of his new JC. I see it for what it is - scare tactics.

    Its about time some one in the country stood up for themselves and caused some disruption. Our indiffereance and apathy over the last five years has been amazing (not just teachers, everybody).

    If we accept the very same agreement that we have previously voted down by 83%, then 67%. We will look weak - a profession with little resolve.

    I cannot see how the very worse case scenario if we vote no, could be any worse than what we are accepting if we vote yes. But if we do win the rewards are huge.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭ethical


    Is anyone going to take a test case or at least get advice on the 'having to pay to take your lunch break s and s issue'.Some knowledgeable person on Boards must know some legal expert that knows whether the Dept are breaking the (EUROPEAN) law or not


    Also there is still no clarity on the CID ISSUE, if I am on a piddly 5 hour CID at present and vote YES will I be given a Golden 18+ hours CID....................I doubt it very much but the amount of young teachers that are willing to believe this is quite frightening.Personally I feel that they will find out that they have signed up to something that has them caught for life with little change to their CID status.


    Did anyone see the DEPT LIKE CIRCULAR distributed to our staffroom today that had a letter from PAT BURKE (Dept) on one side and a letter from Pat King (ASTI) on the other,is the Dept so afraid of another 'NO' that they are scaremongering teachers into accepting the worse deal there is in the Public Service......or did the letter come from ASTI WHO ARE ALSO AFRAID THAT IT WILL be another No?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 666 ✭✭✭teacherhead


    ethical wrote: »
    Is anyone going to take a test case or at least get advice on the 'having to pay to take your lunch break s and s issue'.Some knowledgeable person on Boards must know some legal expert that knows whether the Dept are breaking the (EUROPEAN) law or not


    Also there is still no clarity on the CID ISSUE, if I am on a piddly 5 hour CID at present and vote YES will I be given a Golden 18+ hours CID....................I doubt it very much but the amount of young teachers that are willing to believe this is quite frightening.Personally I feel that they will find out that they have signed up to something that has them caught for life with little change to their CID status.


    Did anyone see the DEPT LIKE CIRCULAR distributed to our staffroom today that had a letter from PAT BURKE (Dept) on one side and a letter from Pat King (ASTI) on the other,is the Dept so afraid of another 'NO' that they are scaremongering teachers into accepting the worse deal there is in the Public Service......or did the letter come from ASTI WHO ARE ALSO AFRAID THAT IT WILL be another No?

    The organisation of working time act covers breaks. For workers over 18 the law is that you must get half an hour after four hours work.

    The CID promise does not mention 18 hours. It is simply a CID for whatever number of hours you are on in your third year with the same employer.

    As for the last point I have seen a letter from pat burke which came from TUI but dont know if it is the same as the one you refer to so can't really comment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,598 ✭✭✭✭km79


    2 vocational schools in my vicinity have done or are about to do a Saturday Croke Park day.....I never want to go down that road :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,682 ✭✭✭amacca


    km79 wrote: »
    2 vocational schools in my vicinity have done or are about to do a Saturday Croke Park day.....I never want to go down that road :(

    I won't do it....full ****ing stop!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,266 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Much as I'd hate to lose my Saturday, I'd prefer to do 7 straight hours than 7 x 1 hour meetings. Ours are scheduled on a rolling basis Mon - Thur and it's impossible to plan for anything after school/extra curricular etc.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 20 Forgiveusall.


    VOTE YES TO HR
    We need some balance in the debate

    Yes, CEC voted 77 to 42 recommending a No vote but that doesn’t mean we the members should not hear alternative views so here they are:
    1. S and S is a wonderful way to get to know the kids you don’t teach. Kids these days innately respect their teachers so walking into a class you never met before poses no difficulties for the experienced Professional.
    2. With every teacher available for five periods every teacher can take off on every trip they ever wanted to safe in the knowledge their class is being supervised by their colleagues. The Principal can green light every one’s dream trip! He/she can stay in their office and be sure that all staff are in the school 9-4. You can now avoid coming in late or going home early as your supervision period won’t allow that.
    3. Personal days-you can now avoid going to every wedding or medical appointment you wanted to avoid because your chance of getting a colleague to cover you are about as high as getting Angela Merkel to admit the Irish took on more bank debt per person than anyone in the EU.
    4. Croke Park hours-They were really really beneficial. Hearing Ex teachers now in the Inspectorate can lecture you on the latest weekly initiative or you can sit with colleagues on winter nights and enjoy the free heat and light. Vote Yes and they come back-forever.
    5. The Minister has broken new ground by getting workers to pay not to work. S and S. Pilot scheme. Next you will be allowed pay for your sick days, Teaching material and use of toilet facilities.
    6. The Junior Cert-once all this ends this lovely new course can finally be unleased. You can reveal in the joys of continuous assessment. Teach Real subjects like Mandarin Chinese to kids struggling with English Show kids how to do practically everything from brushing their teeth to making their own clothes and growing food which they will need to know once the 64 billion Bank debt is paid off.

    7. Show The Brits that we can make a success of continuous assessment. Where they found that teachers/parents/Grind teachers were writing material for students-we can pump out our chests and say a la Bertie that we looked up every tree to ensure it was their own work and not anybody else-certainly not neighbour with a shotgun wondering why little Sorcha did so badly on the Project they wrote. The parents that is.
    8. WE can get the 6 hours in Service Promised for the new JC English. Oh sorry I made a mistake-its six and a half hours.
    9. The Minister has promised a Working group on our concerns for the JC which he was told in detail about over a year ago. Moderation meetings are all part of HR Thankfully they have not gone away. Moderation by its very nature is good-aint it? If you don’t know what it is –its like a staff meeting every week where you try to figure out why Mary got 4% less on her project than Mr Murphy gave her. She did call him a fxx fxxxx after all.
    10. Failure will be abolished in the new JC. In newspeak its “not achieved” A bit like being told you are not tall rather than short. It makes all the difference.
    11. No More promotions bar 300 posts spread throughout the land as an alleviation. No real middle management will exist within 5 years as the 70s and 80s generation shuffle off, so we are now all equal - it seems a bit like the Pigs on animal farm but with Napoleon buried in paperwork and speaking about collective responsibility .
    I can’t wait-VOTE YES-This time a political promise will be carried out . The Minister is really really sorry about breaking Croke Park and paying the Bondholders. Really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,598 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Much as I'd hate to lose my Saturday, I'd prefer to do 7 straight hours than 7 x 1 hour meetings. Ours are scheduled on a rolling basis Mon - Thur and it's impossible to plan for anything after school/extra curricular etc.
    I'm hoping people will not vote to bring them back ! And if thei do I won't have time to do extra curr . I play junior soccer on Saturdays as do a few of my colleagues . I think if just refuse to do it to be honest. Sure Fk it HRA protects us all from redundancies anyway :p


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 20 Forgiveusall.


    Could people cut and paste the above to a word document and post on their noticeboards-distribute just for balance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 746 ✭✭✭ethical


    What is the use of bringing out all this anti bullying stuff and preaching it to children when 'our' so called policy makers are bullying the teachers at every opportunity.
    I have a horrible feeling that the pressures will lead to many many suicides within the teaching profession in the very near future if someone does not shout stop now.
    Ruairí Quinn will be remembered in education.......as the one that broke up teaching families,destroyed homes and did not live up to his so called social, caring and understanding the people on the ground that have put up with this crap for the last 5 years while the rest of Europe and the world laughed at us.Well done Ruairí this will get more publicity for you than Junior Cert reform.You have started dumbing down the Teaching profession and soon you will have dumbed down our young people with a worthless certificate!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    ethical wrote: »

    did the letter come from ASTI WHO ARE ALSO AFRAID THAT IT WILL be another No?


    Maybe I am missing something really obvious but is the ASTI not actually recommending a 'No' vote?


This discussion has been closed.
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