So many Child Molestation stories.

StompToWork · 27-11-2013 12:05AM #1

So, this is probably sooooo the wrong forum to post this in, but I simply cannot see a better one to put it in. Mods, feel free to move (or to be honest, close, if you think it is too contentious)

The thing is, there are new stories almost every day now, of child sexual molestation/abuse (and I admit this thread has been prompted by the Lostprophets lead singer story thread).

At this stage, I think we can probably say that there is a quantifiable percentage (albeit extremely small, thankfully) of the human population who appear to have pedophile tendencies.

The fact of the matter is that these people seem uncontrollably predisposed to find children sexually attractive. At the risk of being too contentious, I have to wonder if, instead of the revulsion which we understandably feel and express towards this deviants (and I use the word deviant as a term to describe someone who deviates from psychological and social norms), we should start considering whether or not there is an observable psychological/physiological reason for this?

Is anyone aware of any studies which have been done on this?

Believe me, when I hear these stories, I feel as sickened and angered as everyone else, but I just wonder that in order to move forward in our development of society, if we need to address this problem in a more enlightened way rather than spitting on these scum and hiding them away in prison.

Again, AH might not be the right place for this, so Mods, please help here. It's something that I would like there to be a conversation on, however.

El Guapo! · 27-11-2013 12:10AM

Nope. They're scum, plain and simple.
If they have some condition or chemical imbalance that makes them sexually attracted to children, then that's one thing. But the problem is they act on it. That is what seperates them from someone with a different kind of illness.
And if this chemical imbalance, or whatever, creates a compulsion to act upon it then that's still not an excuse. They still know right from wrong and should seek help if they feel this compulsion.

Grayson · 27-11-2013 12:17AM

El Guapo! wrote: »

Nope. They're scum, plain and simple.
If they have some condition or chemical imbalance that makes them sexually attracted to children, then that's one thing. But the problem is they act on it. That is what seperates them from someone with a different kind of illness.
And if this chemical imbalance, or whatever, creates a compulsion to act upon it then that's still not an excuse. They still know right from wrong and should seek help if they feel this compulsion.

Do you understand the meaning of compulsion? They're not in control of their actions. They might even think they are until the compulsion takes over

And OP, children are in no more danger than they were 20 years ago. It's just that stories like this sell papers and get viewers (Although I'll admit the one today would have gotten the news anyway. It's a rock star and the details are worse than normal).

It's the same with stories with violent crime. We are actually living in the probably the safest times in human history in the one of the safest places (The difference between here and the safest place is minimal. It's not like the difference between here and somalia. Unless you're posting from a north Korean prison camp).

We're a species that was hard-wired to look for danger everywhere. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. So even in a place this safe we're constantly seeing danger.

D1stant · 27-11-2013 12:20AM

StompToWork wrote: »

Believe me, when I hear these stories, I feel as sickened and angered as everyone else, but I just wonder that in order to move forward in our development of society, if we need to address this problem in a more enlightened way rather than spitting on these scum and hiding them away in prison.

It's a reasonable argument to be fair, but the crime id just about the worst imaginable. Natural motivation is not to help these people - . I would be in favour of the death penalty instead.

LoonyLovegood · 27-11-2013 12:22AM

I listen to Dan Savage's podcast, and he's had several calls from men who are afraid of themselves because they're sexually attracted to children, and don't want to hurt one. But in most countries, if someone goes to a doctor and confesses their paraphilia, they're reported to law enforcement, even if they are in a job/live in a place which means they do not access children on a regular basis. If this was taken away from the statute books, that only if someone confesses to actually abusing someone can they be reported, I reckon you'd have more people admitting their paraphilias and attempting to access treatment.

In a case where someone has actually molested a child, I have no sympathy for them then.

Zillah · 27-11-2013 12:23AM

They've been treating pedophilia as a mental illness for a hundred years. Countless resources have been poured into ways to codify, treat and predict it. Police enforcement, psychiatry, pharmacology - basically everyone that could potentially contribute - have all been developing a body of knowledge around the subject. It is formally recognised in the DSM.

So basically your post is a bit like going "Hey guys, maybe it is about time we did something about global warming? I know this could be controversial, but should we consider that maybe it is manmade?"

Zebra3 · 27-11-2013 12:23AM

Maybe we could set up a church for all these sick men to join and let them get on with their problem.

Oh wait.... :rolleyes:

El Guapo! · 27-11-2013 12:31AM

Grayson wrote: »

Do you understand the meaning of compulsion? They're not in control of their actions. They might even think they are until the compulsion takes over

Yeah I do understand it's meaning. It was the wrong word to use and I phrased my post wrong.
CTYIgirl put it better than I could.

BillyMitchel · 27-11-2013 12:31AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Maybe we could set up a church for all these sick men to join and let them get on with their problem.

Oh wait.... :rolleyes:

Seriously?! FFS

6am7f9zxrsjvnb · 27-11-2013 12:31AM

Grayson wrote: »

Do you understand the meaning of compulsion? They're not in control of their actions. They might even think they are until the compulsion takes over

And OP, children are in no more danger than they were 20 years ago. It's just that stories like this sell papers and get viewers (Although I'll admit the one today would have gotten the news anyway. It's a rock star and the details are worse than normal).

It's the same with stories with violent crime. We are actually living in the probably the safest times in human history in the one of the safest places (The difference between here and the safest place is minimal. It's not like the difference between here and somalia. Unless you're posting from a north Korean prison camp).

We're a species that was hard-wired to look for danger everywhere. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. So even in a place this safe we're constantly seeing danger.

They`re not in control of their actions? Is there scientific evidence to back this up? You seem to imply that they are incapable of resisting their urges.

bigneacy · 27-11-2013 12:33AM

D1stant wrote: »

It's a reasonable argument to be fair, but the crime id just about the worst imaginable. Natural motivation is not to help these people - . I would be in favour of the death penalty instead.

If someone hurt my kids or any of my family's kids I'd kill them with my bare hands, that aside. The one thing that resonates in my mind is; not so long ago the worst crime imaginable to most 'normal' people was homosexuality. The populace thought of them as vile, and wanted them either castrated or put to death. Still is the case in some parts.

Now I'm not saying we should mount an equal rights campaign for child sex offenders, nor am I saying it should somehow be normalised. But I tend to agree with the OP, in that perhaps it's time to try to overcome the problem. Rather than hide it, we should seek to treat and prevent it.

Some studies into the true reasons for offenders actions and the motivation behind them. The circumstances that led to the offender no longer being a law abiding citizen and becoming a red-top-paper-selling-monster. And as well as that some examination of whether the tendency is genetic... I.e. Nature v Nurture.

Correctly understanding the problem is the best chance of a solution. Punishment doesn't work, that is the one thing that's clear.

XsApollo · 27-11-2013 12:36AM

I hope to god they never make up some bullshti about peadophiles having an illness as an excuse. They are dirty ****ing scum and deserve death....Simples

Femme_Fatale · 27-11-2013 12:38AM

XsApollo wrote: »

I hope to god they never make up some bullshti about peadophiles having an illness as an excuse.

Seems perfectly valid to me. A person would want to have something wrong with them to fancy children. And if it is determined to be an illness, then there might be a cure developed for it.

wolfpawnat · 27-11-2013 12:43AM

I find it annoying when you hear of cases where a guy is branded a paedophile for having sex with his girlfriend when he is 18 and she is 17. I mean I think a bit of common sense should come into it on that front. But overall, it is fairly sickening. I am not sure is it as riff these days, all the recent major stories appear to be from the 70's/80's that are coming out. Is it because of the greater fear that kids had back then. I dunno. It is not being made easier by the kids that are molested and even when they know, there are a few parents that say nothing. I think personally child molesters should have to live with the constant fear of being killed by other inmates in prisons. The damage they do can take lifetimes to repair, if at all.

XsApollo · 27-11-2013 12:46AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Seems perfectly valid to me. A person would want to have something wrong with them to fancy children. And if it is determined to be an illness, then there might be a cure developed for it.

Using that logic anything that anybody ever done wrong would be because they have an illness?

ElvisChrist6 · 27-11-2013 12:50AM

bigneacy wrote: »

If someone hurt my kids or any of my family's kids I'd kill them with my bare hands, that aside. The one thing that resonates in my mind is; not so long ago the worst crime imaginable to most 'normal' people was homosexuality. The populace thought of them as vile, and wanted them either castrated or put to death. Still is the case in some parts.

Now I'm not saying we should mount an equal rights campaign for child sex offenders, nor am I saying it should somehow be normalised. But I tend to agree with the OP, in that perhaps it's time to try to overcome the problem. Rather than hide it, we should seek to treat and prevent it.

Some studies into the true reasons for offenders actions and the motivation behind them. The circumstances that led to the offender no longer being a law abiding citizen and becoming a red-top-paper-selling-monster. And as well as that some examination of whether the tendency is genetic... I.e. Nature v Nurture.

Correctly understanding the problem is the best chance of a solution. Punishment doesn't work, that is the one thing that's clear.

Really? Worst imaginable?

... Really?!

Femme_Fatale · 27-11-2013 12:56AM

XsApollo wrote: »

Using that logic anything that anybody ever done wrong would be because they have an illness?

Well maybe not all paedophiles act on their urge. But those who do, do so because of this urge, which may be an illness.

Lou.m · 27-11-2013 01:05AM

bigneacy wrote: »

If someone hurt my kids or any of my family's kids I'd kill them with my bare hands, that aside. The one thing that resonates in my mind is; not so long ago the worst crime imaginable to most 'normal' people was homosexuality. The populace thought of them as vile, and wanted them either castrated or put to death. Still is the case in some parts.

Now I'm not saying we should mount an equal rights campaign for child sex offenders, nor am I saying it should somehow be normalised. But I tend to agree with the OP, in that perhaps it's time to try to overcome the problem. Rather than hide it, we should seek to treat and prevent it.

Some studies into the true reasons for offenders actions and the motivation behind them. The circumstances that led to the offender no longer being a law abiding citizen and becoming a red-top-paper-selling-monster. And as well as that some examination of whether the tendency is genetic... I.e. Nature v Nurture.

Correctly understanding the problem is the best chance of a solution. Punishment doesn't work, that is the one thing that's clear.

No PLEASE do not conflate LGBT with any such crime. Sexual orientation is NOT a philia. A philia can be simply and liking or love either negative or positive. Not all bonds of philia involve reciprocity. LGBT DOES.

It is normal for a % of the human species to be differently orientated sexually towards ADULTS. And of course any such relationship must be informed consensual and done for the enjoyment and happiness of both individuals.

I could just as reality conflate heterosexuality with such a crime...adultery was once considered a crime ...heck masturbation was once a sin.

We used to marry girls as young as 14 in heterosexual marriages...we KNOW now that this is damaging.

Just as we now know that LGBT is not damaging but a positive part of our society we now know that promising young girls in marriage or boys is totally WRONG and immoral.

It was not homosexuals etc who were marrying young children it was actually heterosexuals.

In Ancient Rome, girls married above the age of 12 and boys above 14.In the Middle Ages, under English civil laws that were derived from Roman laws, marriages before the age of 16 were common. In Imperial China, child marriage was the norm.

In contrast, some Islamic marriage practices have permitted marriage of girls below the age of 10, because Sharia law is based in part on the life and practices of Muhammad, the Prophet, as described in part in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. The Prophet married Aisha, his third wife, and consummated the marriage before she reached the age of 10.

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
—Sahih al-Bukhari.
There is a strong belief among some Muslims and scholars, based on Sharia, that marrying a girl less than 13 years old is an acceptable practice for Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

WE KNOW THAT THIS IS DAMAGING TO THE HEALTH OF CHILDREN BOTH PHYSICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY.

It is abhorrent. But much of history is abhorrent.

We used to own slaves. We do not now. Society learnt better. When you know better you do better. Armies used to 'plunder' children after conquering an enemy. It was part of the punishment for losing it was a humiliation to that society.

Often the belief that a girls virginity was of value prompted parents to marry her before puberty.

It is quite simple these people are hurting the most vulnerable. They are dangerous and often extremely violent. They murder and rape.

We as a society HAVE to know better and do better.

DO NOT CONFLATE LGBT WITH THIS because for a long time child abuse was perpetrated by adults in hetero marriages.

Society was barbaric.

Empathy is missing in pedophiles.

And it is NOT an orientation.

LGBT people cannot LOVE a member of the opposite sex romantically often gay people realize they are gay not because of sexual feelings but emotional ones. They want loving adult relationships with the person that is what being gay is. Or for bi people both genders. It is not just about the sexuality but the emotional stuff. Just like simply be cause you have sex once with an adult of your own gender does not make you homosexually orientated.

Sorry to rant but I wanted to stress this.

So society you thought gay people were evil ...well at around the same time you also thought marrying 12 year old girls to old men and them giving birth at this age was ok .

Pedophilia damages the health and the body and the mind of young people.

In 2013 the first United Nations Human Rights Council resolution against child, early, and forced marriages was adopted; it recognizes child marriage as a human rights violation and pledges to eliminate the practice as part of the U.N.'s post-2015 global development agenda.

Child marriage is a form of violence and so is pedophilia.

So don't conflate LGTB with child abuse it is just as easy to conflate heterosexuality with child abuse.

bigneacy · 27-11-2013 01:06AM

ElvisChrist6 wrote: »

Really? Worst imaginable?

... Really?!

You fail history?

Yes. Really. Worst imaginable.

Not too long ago homosexuality was universally illegal. Was considered by all to be an abomination and was punishable by death or castration. If someone was suspected to be a homosexual they were outcast. Even just suspicion was enough to have you shunned.

In some places murder was excusable in certain circumstances. In some places incest, rape and molestation were merely "frowned upon". Don't ask, don't tell. In our own bloody country for crying out loud molestation was reported and ignored for fear of rocking the boat.

Homosexuality was not treated so mildly. In some places in the world it still isn't. I find it very discouraging out of my whole post that was the one line you chose to discuss.

StompToWork · 27-11-2013 01:07AM

Asa Itchy Mall wrote: »

They`re not in control of their actions? Is there scientific evidence to back this up? You seem to imply that they are incapable of resisting their urges.

This is kinda my point. Or at least one of them. Not to be "tit for tat" here, but do you have scientific evidence to back up the fact that they are capable of resisting these urges?

StompToWork · 27-11-2013 01:10AM

Lou.m wrote: »

<Qoute Snipped. Well, entirely cut out, actually>

I don't think the point of the post you quoted was, in any way, to include LBGT in the conversation. I believe that bigneacy's point is valid. What was once considered abhorrent, is now considered normal, from a historical POV.

Absoluvely · 27-11-2013 01:14AM

Lou.m wrote: »

Empathy is missing in pedophiles.
And it is NOT an orientation.

Pedophilia damages the health and the body and the mind of young people.

Child marriage is a form of violence and so is pedophilia.

No.

Paedophilia is an adult's attraction to children. Paedophilia is not an act, or even a crime.

You seem to think that there are no innocent, virginal paedophiles.

bigneacy · 27-11-2013 01:16AM

StompToWork wrote: »

I don't think the point of the post you quoted was, in any way, to include LBGT in the conversation. I believe that bigneacy's point is valid. What was once considered abhorrent, is now considered normal, from a historical POV.

No it wasn't it was merely a way to bring something which is understood now but was one "abhorrent" to all "normal" people. Just a means to start a discussion really. I wasn't in any way trying to imply there was a link between the two. Thanks.

bigneacy · 27-11-2013 01:21AM

Absoluvely wrote: »

No.

Paedophilia is an adult's attraction to children. Paedophilia is not an act, or even a crime.

You seem to think that there are no innocent, virginal paedophiles.

Also a good point- there should be a distinct seperation between a Paedophile and a Child Molester. They are different things entirely. Not saying an individual can't be both but you can be one and not the other.

A paedophile is sexually attracted to children- no harm being done to anyone so long as it stops there. The latter however; that's where the damage begins.

Lou.m · 27-11-2013 01:30AM

Also just to add it is not an orientation ...unfortunately ANYONE can become a pedophile

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

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It is NOT genetic Pedophilia has been described as a disorder of sexual preference just because it is stable over time does not mean anything it causes harm and therefore it is a mental illness. While not causes of pedophilia themselves, childhood abuse by adults or comorbid psychiatric illnesses—such as personality disorders and substance abuse—are risk factors for acting on pedophilic urges.

"The paedophiles emerge as significantly higher on Psychoticism, Introversion and Neurotocism than age-matched controls."

LGBT register as perfectly normal on psychometric testing as heterosexuals . Pedophiles do not.

Also most pedophiles are non exclusive that means they also have sex and fantasize about adults too.

Situational offenders tend to offend at times of stress; have a later onset of offending; have fewer, often familial victims; and have a general preference for adult partners. Pedophilic offenders, however, often start offending at an early age; often have a large number of victims who are frequently extrafamilial; are more inwardly driven to offend; and have values or beliefs that strongly support an offense lifestyle. Research suggests that incest offenders recidivate at approximately half the rate of extrafamilial child molesters, and one study estimated that by the time of entry to treatment, nonincestuous pedophiles who molest boys had committed an average of 282 offenses against 150 victims.

That would not be easy to compare to even normal sexual relations in number with heterosexual men. This is an offense life choice.
"Some child molesters—pedophiles or not—threaten their victims to stop them from reporting their actions.Others, like those that often victimize children, can develop complex ways of getting access to children, like gaining the trust of a child's parent, trading children with other pedophiles or, infrequently, get foster children from non-industrialized nations or abduct child victims from strangers. Offending pedophiles may often act interested in the child, to gain the child's interest, loyalty and affection to keep the child from letting others know about the abuse"

They are not actually interested in the child at all simply the offense. The faked interest is realized when they are apprehended they lose interest in keeping the charade of it being anything other than an obsession to offend.

Pedophiles are people who develop abnormal fantasies sometimes early on sometimes not sometimes very late in life. And they swap children with other offenders as if they are objects. This clearly shows that the offender is not aware of the humanity of the child. It is nowhere near an orientation.

Although what causes pedophilia is not yet known, beginning in 2002, researchers began reporting a series of findings linking pedophilia with brain structure and function: Pedophilic men have lower IQs.

But adults can become serial offenders at a late age after having no prior fantasies. It usually happens at times of mental stress or breakdown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#Development_and_sexual_orientation

Abigayle · 27-11-2013 01:31AM

Zillah wrote: »

I know this could be controversial, but should we consider that maybe it is manmade?"

I'm man made, I don't want to abuse anyone.

I have a particular hate for these people, because they take away the rights of a child, some children don't know what they are saying no to, just frightened. That's assuming they can even talk.

The abuser is gone beyond help to me.

DMR1861 · 27-11-2013 01:34AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I find it annoying when you hear of cases where a guy is branded a paedophile for having sex with his girlfriend when he is 18 and she is 17. I mean I think a bit of common sense should come into it on that front. But overall, it is fairly sickening. I am not sure is it as riff these days, all the recent major stories appear to be from the 70's/80's that are coming out. Is it because of the greater fear that kids had back then. I dunno. It is not being made easier by the kids that are molested and even when they know, there are a few parents that say nothing. I think personally child molesters should have to live with the constant fear of being killed by other inmates in prisons. The damage they do can take lifetimes to repair, if at all.

Don't we have some mad 'Romeo and Juliet' law here where an underage boy can go to prison for having consensual sex with an underage girl?

catallus · 27-11-2013 01:39AM

I remember reading a meta-study about 10 years ago which went back over 70 years studying sexual attraction and it concluded that males at the extreme end of the study went as young as 9 years of age before they began to feel abnormal. It helped if the picture was of a foreign girl. Must look for links.

wolfpawnat · 27-11-2013 01:39AM

DMR1861 wrote: »

Don't we have some mad 'Romeo and Juliet' law here where an underage boy can go to prison for having consensual sex with an underage girl?

Yes, if two 15 year olds have consensual sex with one another, the boy is held for statutory rape of the girl, but it does not work the other way around as that could cause girls to not come forward with actual sexual assault cases. That is why I really think there is a flaw in the system. If a 19yo boy sleeps with a 17yo girl he is a rapist, but what is odd about a relationship with 2 years between people?

Lou.m · 27-11-2013 01:40AM

bigneacy wrote: »

Also a good point- there should be a distinct seperation between a Paedophile and a Child Molester. They are different things entirely. Not saying an individual can't be both but you can be one and not the other.

A paedophile is sexually attracted to children- no harm being done to anyone so long as it stops there. The latter however; that's where the damage begins.

I would argue that the attraction itself is damaging.

The rape fantasy is not damaging but having the urge to rape IS.

The urge or the attraction to rape is damaging.

I would suggest having an urge to rape is damaging to the psychology and people around the person as I am certain it is noticed by women. And it must show up in behavior.

Having sexual urges to offend is not the same as getting your wife to pretend she is sixteen and wear a school uniform.

It is not the same as seeing a 16 yr old girl and going ' she is pretty'. It is very very different.

These fantasies are perhaps not healthy themselves but not the same as an URGE and an attraction to small prepubescent kids.

An actual URGE is not the same as a fantasy. You should find the thought of actually harming a child repulsive.

Perhaps we should limit the conversation to ' SEX OFFENDERS AND CHILD MOLESTERS'.

And calling pedophiles virginal as if there is a type of sex offense virginity to be lost is odd.

There are people who are virgins who will become sex offenders there are people who have had sex with adults who are child sex offenders or will be.

meoklmrk91 · 27-11-2013 01:43AM

In my own personal experience I have found the pedophillia breeds pedophillia, the abused becomes the abuser. It makes sense when you think about it children especially learn what they live, their experience can normalise it. That is not of course to say everyone who has been abused becomes the abuser, that simply isn't true, but in most the cases I have heard of the a users were in fact abused themselves. It is a cycle that needs to be broken. Because it is such a taboo issue and let's be fair it always will be its driven under ground, like the poster who spoke about those who called into Dan Savages show, who are they supposed to turn to for help? The only people they could talk to realistically where they wouldn't be judged or possibly persecuted are other pedophiles and that is dangerous.

If we could somehow break the cycle, stop this from happening to more children, then maybe there would be less pedophiles or at the very least stop children from being hurt, traumatised and having to live with what happened to them for the rest of there lives. Imagine being someone who was abused and knowing t he effect it had on you dealing with being attracted to small children, suffering in silence is going to do no good, the temptation and the suffering that you would have to deal with on a daily basis must be torture. There should be some avenue for these people to go down, therapy, even voluntary chemical castration. At present because of the taboo there is nothing.

As another poster said there is a difference between being a pedophile and a child molester, if we could stop the former becoming the latter then that can only be good. Personally if I was that way inclined and found the temptation too much I think I would kill myself, I would rather that than do that to an innocent child because of my sickness.

God this topic really turns my stomach

So many Child Molestation stories.

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