What makes someone Irish?

Femme_Fatale · 22-11-2013 11:26PM

My personal take is pretty black and white - if you are an Irish citizen, you're Irish. I know others look at it from more symbolic perspectives, but for some reason I go with the bureaucratic, administrative angle. :cool:

I also think that if you're an Irish citizen but don't identify yourself as Irish, it doesn't matter - you are Irish.

clairefontaine · 22-11-2013 11:28PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

My personal take is pretty black and white - if you are an Irish citizen, you're Irish. I know others look at it from more symbolic perspectives, but for some reason I go with the bureaucratic, administrative angle. :cool:

I also think that if you're an Irish citizen but don't identify yourself as Irish, it doesn't matter - you are Irish.

There are a few ways to look at it.

Politically - as in citizenship.

Culturally - as in sensibility.

Blood line as in genetics.

Or a combination.

poundapunnet · 22-11-2013 11:30PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Its not straightforward.

Personally I don't think one person has the right to tell another person what their essence is.

Irishness comes in many forms, has many meanings.

Second to that, people tend to notice difference, and they compare you with their notion of your homeland, which is not always correct.

So your friend for example, maybe Irish to you, but that is to erase the Indian part of him, which you may not even notice depending how on familiar you are with the nuances of what it is to be Indian.

I've had many Irish people tell me I'm not a typical American, but all that means is I'm not typical in their imagined construction of one, which they probably got off the tv. They also tell me I have a Canadian accent, yeah whatever. I was in Montreal once for two days, 20 years ago.

My parents where anglo Irish and to this day I walk into American supermarkets and forget the American nomenclature for goods because I grew up with the Irish and English words for them. Childhood sticks somehow.

This is the age of the hybrid and with one Irish person leaving Ireland every six minutes according to recent statistics and migrants coming in, identity is not static, as much as we might let our craving for stability delude is into thinking it is.

Yeah, any identity is built on difference and is mostly artificial anyway, it's not anything essential or unchanging. The state of Ireland was built on an idea of the Irish person as Catholic and rural less than 100 years ago, which rules an awful lot of the people posting here out straight away. I take your point on my friend and I know arse all about what it means to be Indian, but I know he considers himself Irish and I think on a practical rather than purely theoretical level (which it mostly is anyway) cultural markers are just a better way than relying on citizenship or ethnicity, insofar as it's a bit rich to tell someone who's been living here most of his life, has more in common lifestyle/language/humour wise with Irish people than Indian people that he is brown and therefore not Irish.

uch · 22-11-2013 11:47PM

Female:- Big Arsé, small Tits

Male:- Small Brain, small Mickey

Femme_Fatale · 22-11-2013 11:51PM

uch wrote: »

Female:- Big Arsé, small Tits

Arse is African/Latina. Big boobs is more Irish/European.

Malibu Stacy · 22-11-2013 11:59PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

There are a few ways to look at it.

Politically - as in citizenship.

Culturally - as in sensibility.

Blood line as in genetics.

Or a combination.

Exactly. My mother is American but her grandparents are from Ireland and she grew up in a neighborhood where most of the parents on her block were from Ireland, or the children of Irish immigrants as well. The first time we visited Ireland, she 'got' a lot of the references and the sensibility that she picked up from her grandparents in a way that I didn't, because that's not the culture I grew up in. However, as an adult I lived and worked in Ireland for a while, and could probably tell you more about the Irish political system and economy than many Irish people could. I also picked up on the sensibility aspect. But my mother is entitled to citizenship and I am not; my mother looks Irish and I do not. So who is more Irish?

Femme_Fatale · 23-11-2013 12:02AM

I have no problem with people personally identifying as Irish, but if they aren't an Irish citizen, I don't view them as Irish. Just my personal opinion btw - not saying I'm right and others are wrong.

People from Northern Ireland are Irish as they have Irish passports but they are also British.

Augmerson · 23-11-2013 12:06AM

Turning into a melted ball of plastic in the sun.

Malibu Stacy · 23-11-2013 12:14AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I have no problem with people personally identifying as Irish, but if they aren't an Irish citizen, I don't view them as Irish. Just my personal opinion btw - not saying I'm right and others are wrong.

People from Northern Ireland are Irish as they have Irish passports but they are also British.

But doesn't the NI situation highlight how important self-identification is in the process of what makes someone Irish (or British)?

Malibu Stacy · 23-11-2013 12:20AM

dissed doc wrote: »

Most European, Asian and African countries are actually consisting of people with some common ethnic line. .

This is not true, for several reasons.

First, I think the whole idea of an 'essentialist' notion of identity in Europe is coming back big time in reaction to immigration, but the idea that citizenship equals nationality is a relatively new phenomenon for most European countries. Certainly in places like Belgium, the UK and Spain, there is recognition (if not agreement) that there is such a thing as a multi-national state, and that citizenship and nationality/ethnicity are distinct. The idea of whiteness as being a marker of European identity is also relatively new; Slavs and Latins were all but considered a different race until relatively recently.

In addition, there is significant heterogeneity within countries like China (hence all of the fighting over Tibet). And let's not even get started on the ethnic differences within African countries.

clairefontaine · 23-11-2013 01:07AM

Malibu Stacy wrote: »

This is not true, for several reasons.

First, I think the whole idea of an 'essentialist' notion of identity in Europe is coming back big time in reaction to immigration, but the idea that citizenship equals nationality is a relatively new phenomenon for most European countries. Certainly in places like Belgium, the UK and Spain, there is recognition (if not agreement) that there is such a thing as a multi-national state, and that citizenship and nationality/ethnicity are distinct. The idea of whiteness as being a marker of European identity is also relatively new; Slavs and Latins were all but considered a different race until relatively recently.

In addition, there is significant heterogeneity within countries like China (hence all of the fighting over Tibet). And let's not even get started on the ethnic differences within African countries.

This is very new to Europe, true, whereas we have been negotiating and continue to for a long time now. You know how we have so many ghost stories to emerge out of New England, I think we are haunted quite literally by this question, who are we?

Europe also did not fully embrace federalism. No matter what state you are from you are still American. No matter what hyphen you use, you are still American first. Europe now has so many countries, but there really is no central "European" identity that really means anything. So they stick to their country's nationality, usually defined by blood lineage. So they are still working it all out and have a long way to go, because they are still tied by the myth of origin.

Of course Ireland was always more complex given all its emmigration that it had to be more than blood. You step outside the country and you cant vote anymore, and I don't think locals really see you as Irish either. Of course different climes and paths change us, for sure, but childhood sticks. But their kids will always be American, Mancunian, Australian, etc...The way I look at it with first generations is like those concentric circles that meet in the middle, there's a shared space for the culture you share with your parents, and then there is your own that you share with your nation, and that goes for immigrants into a new homeland too, who choose transformation over exile.

WoollyRedHat · 23-11-2013 01:12AM

The mammy.

Malibu Stacy · 23-11-2013 01:13AM

clairefontaine wrote: »

This is very new to Europe, true, whereas we have been negotiating and continue to for a long time now. You know how we have so many ghost stories to emerge out of New England, I think we are haunted quite literally by this question, who are we?

Europe also did not fully embrace federalism. No matter what state you are from you are still American. No matter what hyphen you use, you are still American first. Europe now has so many countries, but there really is no central "European" identity that really means anything. So they stick to their country's nationality, usually defined by blood lineage. So they are still working it all out and have a long way to go, because they are still tied by the myth of origin..

Oh, I don't mean European federalism, I mean national identity within states. Europe still has multi-national states (Spain, Belgium and the UK being the most obvious examples). But Germany also is a federal system, and the Italian regions are still very, very distinct culturally and politically. If not for the massive transfers of people in the wake of WWII, Central and Eastern European states would be far more nationally diverse than they are today. Nevertheless, the "Who are we" question still haunts Europe, not just because of immigration, but because this has always been an issue.

Howard Juneau · 23-11-2013 01:14AM

smileyj1987 wrote: »

A love of alcohol and potatoes

That's Russians !

feargale · 23-11-2013 01:20AM

An acquaintance once tried to convince me that Jesus was Irish, on the grounds that 1. he was very attached to the mammy, 2. he was always hanging around with the lads and 3. he died roaring for a drink

darlett · 23-11-2013 01:36AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Arse is African/Latina. Big boobs is more Irish/European.

Theres only way to settle this argument FF

ygolometsipe · 23-11-2013 01:49AM

I think its odd that people worry about their Irish heritage.
I don't know what it takes to make you Irish. I suppose its a combination
of family linage, birth on the country, willingness to fight for out culture.

Ireland as it stands right now, seems to have the same culture that my parents
and my grand parents talked about.
"We" were never a bad minded people, we only hoped for the best in people.
My parents never drank and my grandparents rarely did so.

In my mind, your are Irish if you can see yourself as part of the community.
If you see a island with mixed views / people but will fight for them.

Ireland is a true free land, it is the ideal america aspires too.

We are free, in spirit, in mind and we will argue the **** out of that until the other, drops dead!

dd972 · 23-11-2013 02:21AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

People from Northern Ireland are Irish as they have Irish passports but they are also British.

Don't think there's too many UK passports lying around in bedroom drawers in Ballymurphy or Crosmaglen.

anncoates · 23-11-2013 02:23AM

wingbacknr5 wrote: »

Or a crew cut scrote in a "Shams" jersey fighting in the streets with a scrote in "Bohs" jersey.

Take your pick of which stereotypical generalisation floats your boat.

Sexual congress with livestock alert

Nadser · 23-11-2013 02:30AM

It depends on who 'your people' are. Like I wouldn't consider any Fitz..., Nugent's, Roche's or De Lacey's Irish - sure they're only Norman blow-ins!

joe swanson · 23-11-2013 02:52AM

It depends on who you ask . I was born here, raised here , a nationalist, drink guiness, enjoy gaa but some on boards.ie classify me as a west brit cause i think the ira and their 'supporters' are/were scum

It has a different meaning to every individual

Nidgeweasel · 23-11-2013 02:54AM

Turtyturd wrote: »

Being born here.

Devalera loikes this.

SeaDaily · 23-11-2013 03:06AM

Turtyturd wrote: »

Being born here.

Where you're born has nothing to do with it. Its about your parents nationalities where you live and where you hold citizenship.

If a French couple were visiting Ireland and they had a baby while here the baby is not irish.

Nidgeweasel · 23-11-2013 03:12AM

SeaDaily wrote: »

Where you're born has nothing to do with it. Its about your parents nationalities where you live and where you hold citizenship.

If a French couple were visiting Ireland and they had a baby while here the baby is not irish.

What if that baby happens to be exceptionally good at rugby. Can we have it then?

Kiwi in IE · 23-11-2013 04:10AM

dissed doc wrote: »

Irish =

1. Caucasian
2. Born in Ireland
3. Parents both born in Ireland
4. Grandparents both born in Ireland

Other stuff like "New Irish" for whatever brand of immigrant a person might be selling, is nonsense. Turkish people aren't called "the New Germans" in national newspapers in Germany, nor are Pakistani people in the UK referred to "the new English".

So maybe:

5. Massive inferiority complex with regard to culture and heritage rammed down your throat by a liberal left-wing media.

And that is Irish.

What a load of absolute ****e! My son was born in New Zealand with one Irish parent and moved here when he was 20 months old. He has as much right to call himself Irish as anyone that meets your criteria.

Sorry to shatter your 'pure race' fantasy.

Jester252 · 23-11-2013 04:58AM

Irish is like sexuality. Nobody chooses to be Irish, people are born Irish. You maybe born into the Kombai tribe and never interacted with someone from outside the tribe but one day the Irish will come out.

Malibu Stacy · 23-11-2013 05:12AM

Jester252 wrote: »

Irish is like sexuality. Nobody chooses to be Irish, people are born Irish. You maybe born into the Kombai tribe and never interacted with someone from outside the tribe but one day the Irish will come out.

That is patently ridiculous. If someone with Irish parents was adopted by Panamanians as a newborn, other than an inability to tolerate the sun, why would they have any innate 'Irish' traits? What kind of urges would one even have? Do you expect someone to hear a snatch of the Chieftains one day and inexplicably start dancing a jig in the middle of the street?

Jester252 · 23-11-2013 05:28AM

Malibu Stacy wrote: »

That is patently ridiculous. If someone with Irish parents was adopted by Panamanians as a newborn, other than an inability to tolerate the sun, why would they have any innate 'Irish' traits? What kind of urges would one even have? Do you expect someone to hear a snatch of the Chieftains one day and inexplicably start dancing a jig in the middle of the street?

One day in their early teens they will have an uncontrollable urge to moan about the weather :pac:

ButtersSuki · 23-11-2013 06:07AM

Eating in one of the finest restaurants in all of the US in San Francisco and hearing the following from a colleague who wasn't joking:

Jaysus, I'd kill for a Supermacs Shnack Box right now.

SharpshooterTom · 23-11-2013 06:41AM

Born in England of two Irish parents, moved to Northern Ireland aged 14. I'm now 27 and my accent has not changed since.

In England I was constantly made fun of for my Irish heritage at school. Sadly it was partly my own fault as I was a bit of plastic paddy back in those days when I was kid, wearing ROI tops and such (didn't have much choice my parents forced me to do so), so obviously everyone identified me as Irish, given we were seen as "that Irish immigrant family" in the neighbourhood.

Yes I got stick that I was a dumb thick paddy, who must have been intellectually inferior, my parents were considered "drunks" and I was somehow responsible for the PIRA bombing campaign that was going on in England at the time. I never once was considered English by the English, always a foreigner.

Moved to Northern Ireland, situation completely changes, I'm now a British so and so all of a sudden, everyone hears my English accent and the stereotypes begin, people assume I'm of unionist political persuasion, son of a soldier and that I could be potentially anti-Irish/pro-loyalist. My "people" were responsible for the occuption of Ireland and British rule, "you lot were shameful for famine, I hope you know that" etc.

I think the thing that annoys me about people in Ireland, and particularly Northern Ireland, is how often people make assumptions about me. The most annoying one is that I am quite often seen as a protestant, which is so so annoying. Not only is it annoying, but its incredibly ignorant. I was born to two Irish catholic parents. But that means little as most people on both sides, are happy to label me as protestant, in the silly sectarian head count that goes on here.

Little do Irish people know that I came under a lot of abuse for my Irish heritage in what they percieve as my "homeland". I don't see myself as English and never have done, however I am reluctant to call myself Irish either understandably.

I know I have posted this story too many times and I should keep quiet about it now :P, but I do find it fascinating the range of views people have about nationality and how difficult it is for somebody like me to be pidgeon holed into a nationality when both countries in question see me as a foreigner!

What makes someone Irish?

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