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If Northern Ireland between 1921 and 1967..

24

Comments

  • #32
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    Maybe 40. Point was, they weren't hugely active over that time.
    40? The civil war ended in 23 and the border campaign started in the mid 50's.
    Skylinehead wrote: »
    I think you're looking far more into this than actually went on. There was no real ideological aims at the very beginning, it started as a response to the Loyalist violence that was already ongoing. Their primary aim wasn't to get a UI, but to get equal rights for Catholics.

    The ideological aims were always there. They northern IRA named themselves after the southern insurgents and adopted their name, insignia and emblems. They seen themselves as the inheritors of the leaders of 1916 and those who went before them carrying on violent nationalism onto the next stage.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So what?
    Violence has existed since we crawled out of the primeval swamp, every species uses it, the Irish have, the British have, the Americans have etc etc etc. What is your point only to deflect again from the main debate?
    My "aim" is to admonish those who carry on the mantle.


  • #33
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »


    My "aim" is to admonish those who carry on the mantle.

    I think even those in the primeval swamp know exactly what your 'aim' is. :rolleyes:


  • #34
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I think even those in the primeval swamp know exactly what your 'aim' is. :rolleyes:

    ssshhh I got a good laugh at that!!!


  • #35
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They were threatened. Still are. They have a siege mentality that harks back to the Williamite war. They believe their people and culture are in danger of cultural assimilation by the Southern Irish and they're right.
    It's like you're almost justifying loyalist violence. Well you were bound to eventually I suppose. Weird, weird stuff for an Irish person, whom they can have hatred for.


  • #36
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    It's like you're almost justifying loyalist violence. Well you were bound to eventually I suppose. Weird, weird stuff for an Irish person, whom they can have hatred for.
    I condemn all paramilitary violence. The other poster asked me a question and I answered him, simple as that. Hatred is born of violence. Northern Ireland will stabilise and the bigots on both sides will eventually die off.


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  • #37
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I condemn all paramilitary violence. The other poster asked me a question and I answered him, simple as that. Hatred is born of violence. Northern Ireland will stabilise and the bigots on both sides will eventually die off.


    Would now be a good time to discuss your admiration for the Ulster Covenant?


  • #38
    onemorechance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭onemorechance


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I condemn all paramilitary violence. The other poster asked me a question and I answered him, simple as that. Hatred is born of violence. Northern Ireland will stabilise and the bigots on both three sides will eventually die off.

    Don't forget Britain


  • #39
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    dd972 wrote: »
    was administered differently, no gerrymandering and less sectarianism would there have been no need for a NICRA or the mayhem that followed? I know there's the view that it was a 'Protestant state for a Protestant people' so maybe that was the way it was always going to end up.

    The IRA as it was, post the 50's border campaign was a practically defunct organisation.

    If that happened, and Catholics - Nationalists were given a fair deal, then the IRA would never have succeeded in their rise of popularity.

    Should be remembered, the likes of Ian Paisely helped the rise of the IRA and the IRA helped the rise of Ian Paisely

    Alas, the Protestants who were members of the Orange Order were incapable of ever being able non sectarian as their whole purpose was sectarian and paranoia. But, things might have not out of hand if things were different.


  • #40
    walrusgumble
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    No, they didn't form in a vacuum. They formed as a result of Unionist violence. They inherited the violent philosophy from......unionist violence.

    Bear in mind too, that the men of 1916 (well bar IRB men like Clarke who was always out to attack the British) formed as a result of the formation of the UVF, a group willing to stand in the way and claim that they would use violence to get rid of Home Rule for the whole island, despite a majority being in favour.

    Surely, never in the history of both Ireland and Britain has a minority held such power and sway over the majority of the people


  • #41
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Interesting programme tonight about a secret British unit who fired on and killed innocent nationalists.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/panorama-british-secret-force-ira-1174843-Nov2013/


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  • #42
    Captain Farrell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭Captain Farrell


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Interesting programme tonight about a secret British unit who fired on and killed innocent nationalists terrorists.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/panorama-british-secret-force-ira-1174843-Nov2013/

    There, that's better.


  • #43
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    There, that's better.

    Em are you serious?


    Did you miss this bit?

    Although the soldiers believe they saved many lives, Panorama says it has uncovered evidence that reveals some members operated outside the law, “firing on and killing unarmed civilians”.

    It's all over the news now, see this is the type of stuff that always tries to get swept under the carpet.

    Well sorry to disappoint you but you won't be doing it here.


  • #44
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    There, that's better.


    "Panorama says it has uncovered evidence that reveals some members operated outside the law, “firing on and killing unarmed civilians”.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/panorama-british-secret-force-ira-1174843-Nov2013/

    No, it isn't.


  • #45
    Captain Farrell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭Captain Farrell


    Nodin wrote: »
    "Panorama says it has uncovered evidence that reveals some members operated outside the law, “firing on and killing unarmed civilians”.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/panorama-british-secret-force-ira-1174843-Nov2013/

    No, it isn't.
    "We didn't go around town blasting, shooting all over the place like you see on the TV, we were going down there and finding, looking for our targets, finding them and taking them down," he said.

    "We may not have seen a weapon, but there more than likely would have been weapons there in a vigilante patrol."

    Panorama has identified 10 unarmed civilians shot, according to witnesses, by the MRF:

    Brothers John and Gerry Conway, on the way to their fruit stall in Belfast city centre on 15 April 1972
    Aiden McAloon and Eugene Devlin, in a taxi taking them home from a disco on 12 May 1972
    Joe Smith, Hugh Kenny, Patrick Murray and Tommy Shaw, on Glen Road on 22 June 1972
    Daniel Rooney and Brendan Brennan, on the Falls Road on 27 September 1972

    "civilians" means non-military personnel, which includes IRA scum.


  • #46
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    "civilians" means non-military personnel, which includes IRA scum.

    Ah yes so all civilians were ira scum.

    Baffling.


  • #47
    Captain Farrell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭Captain Farrell


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Ah yes so all civilians were ira scum.

    Baffling.

    Indeed it is. Almost as shameful as Enniskillen, Birmingham, Guildford, Warrington, Brighton, Omagh.

    If it was ok for the IRA to break a few eggs to make an omelette....


  • #48
    iDave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭iDave


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    Indeed it is. Almost as shameful as Enniskillen, Birmingham, Guildford, Warrington, Brighton, Omagh.

    If it was ok for the IRA to break a few eggs to make an omelette....

    whos saying it was ok?


  • #49
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    "civilians" means non-military personnel, which includes IRA scum.


    Civillians means civillians.


  • #50
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    Indeed it is. Almost as shameful as Enniskillen, Birmingham, Guildford, Warrington, Brighton, Omagh.

    If it was ok for the IRA to break a few eggs to make an omelette....

    You should be condemning both acts from both sides.

    Instead youre glorifying the act of murder from one side.

    Charming.


  • #51
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    "civilians" means non-military personnel, which includes IRA scum.
    But... the focus is on civilians, the non violent innocent ones.
    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    If it was ok for the IRA to break a few eggs to make an omelette....
    Wtf?

    If you're from a loyalist background, that's enough explanation, but if you're an Irish person... when did this sh1t of Irish people virtually defending loyalist paramilitarism/crookedness within the security forces (when they could have been on the receiving end of it themselves if they lived in the North) become fashionable?
    I mean, you can condemn provo violence and intimidation without stooping to that level. Loyalists won't thank you for it like.


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  • #52
    Captain Farrell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭Captain Farrell


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    But... the focus on on civilians, non violent people.

    Wtf?

    If you're from a loyalist background, that's enough explanation, but if you're an Irish person... when did this sh1t of Irish people virtually defending loyalist paramilitarism/crookedness within the security forces (when they could have been on the receiving end of it themselves if they lived in the North) become fashionable?
    I mean, you can condemn provo violence and intimidation without stooping to that level. Loyalists won't thank you for it like.

    I condemn all sides that were involved. thousands of innocents dead in a fight for a country that nobody really wants.


  • #53
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    You should be condemning both acts from both sides.

    Instead youre glorifying the act of murder from one side.

    Charming.

    Pot. Kettle. Black.


  • #54
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    I condemn all sides that were involved. thousands of innocents dead in a fight for a country that nobody really wants.
    Speak for yourself. But anyway, backtracking. You were veering in the direction of justifying loyalist/security forces violence towards non violent nationalists... and you were lumping non violent nationalists in with republican paramilitaries.
    Disgusting sh1t that you'd find in a loyalist pamphlet.


  • #55
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    There, that's better.
    Panorama has identified 10 unarmed civilians shot, according to witnesses, by the MRF:

    Brothers John and Gerry Conway, on the way to their fruit stall in Belfast city centre on 15 April 1972

    Aiden McAloon and Eugene Devlin, in a taxi taking them home from a disco on 12 May 1972

    Joe Smith, Hugh Kenny, Patrick Murray and Tommy Shaw, on Glen Road on 22 June 1972

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24987465

    What better way to take the fight to the IRA than do drive-by shootings on innocent people like a bunch of gang-bangers.


  • #56
    Captain Farrell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭Captain Farrell


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    What better way to take the fight to the IRA than do drive-by shootings on innocent people like a bunch of gang-bangers.

    What better way to take the fight to the "Brits" than plant bombs in shopping centres and kill children?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/20/newsid_2544000/2544121.stm


  • #57
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    What better way to take the fight to the "Brits" than plant bombs in shopping centres and kill children?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/20/newsid_2544000/2544121.stm

    You might want to familiarise yourself with the term 'whataboutery'.

    Nobody is defending the killing of innocents on this thread.


  • #58
    dodderangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    Chicken. Duck. Turkey?


  • #59
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    What better way to take the fight to the "Brits" than plant bombs in shopping centres and kill children?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/20/newsid_2544000/2544121.stm

    What about, what about. Who here has defended that, whereas you clearly are defending this military unit killing unarmed, innocent civilians.


  • #60
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Captain Farrell wrote: »
    What better way to take the fight to the "Brits" than plant bombs in shopping centres and kill children?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/20/newsid_2544000/2544121.stm
    When people talk about one group carrying out atrocities on innocent people, whether the former be the IRA, loyalist paramilitaries, security forces... what is the point in saying "Well, the other side did the same?" It doesn't change or mitigate or justify what's being talked about. It's just very poor arguing and extremely indicative of agenda-pushing.


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  • #61
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Ah yes so all civilians were ira scum.

    They were only Irish Catholics, you see, which means they were at the bottom of the victim hierarchy in the minds of failed British empire fanboys like Capt'n Farrell.


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