Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

whiteandlight · 19-11-2013 10:28PM

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Back on topic everyone please

seavill · 19-11-2013 10:51PM

Jerry Powerful Vegetarian wrote: »

How far do they need to row? Quinn is going to be angry and embarrassed when the next NO vote comes in.He`ll probably stop payment for S&S as a show of force.Then comes evil FEMPI. Then comes the inevitable closure of schools. Que a hostile media/general public and thousands of worried parents...

here`s the fantasy world scenario..

Quinn admits defeat.Scraps CP hours,new junior cert and cuts to S&S payments.He promises to maintain pupil/teacher ratio and teacher wages. Government tells disgusted nurses,guards and the other 300,000 public servants to suck it up. Do you really believe another NO will take us here?

There is not going to be any payment for S&S this year for ASTI or TUI people who belive that ASTI will still get paid for the work done this year are gravely mistaken in my opinion.

There is no way he could justify to the public giving out the money "that is not there"

Also how can he pay the ASTI teachers for doing half what the TUI teachers are doing for free. Never going to happen

Inspector Coptoor · 19-11-2013 10:55PM

Exactly.

It's not budgeted for.
Doing S&S for nothing

teacherhead · 19-11-2013 11:35PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

What the government rowed back on?

1. Implementation of JC - a "committee will be set up" and teachers concerns voiced. Positive step but not enough
'
2. CP hours will be allowed to be used in a better way, we won't all have to be in the same room at the same time.
CP hours shouldn't exist. They are the epitomy of condescension from on high.

3. CID..... BS. 6-14 hour CID not good enough

4 an opt out clause for S&S, ie a €1700 deduction in wages.
Which really amounts to a €3400 deduction if one is already doing S&S and now wants out on the basis of not wanting burn out.

I hold my hands up here.
I don't have the answers.
I support a no vote to HRA, I don't have the stomach for a strike.
When the ballot arrives, I expect another ballot on measures up to and including strike.

The current action is making school life difficult already.
Parent teacher meetings are one thing & I'd have no issue with doing them in school time, but info evenings, career evenings etc, I don't think they should be hit.

Just Re point 4. My understanding is that only teachers who previously opted out of s&s can avail of the buy out arrangement.

The croke park hours in themselves are not necessarily a bad idea in that they were designed to reduce disruption to the school year, however, they have been implemented in a very crude way. I wouldn't be overly confident that there will be a huge improvement after this working group.

To my mind croke park hours should be a fifteen minute meeting Re whatever the agenda is - now go away and for our next meeting have x, y and z done and count it as two hours work. The notion of a room full of teachers counting the hours down in unison is unproductive and bad for morale. Subject planning the same, say 6 hours meetings a year or whatever inform the principal.of where and when youre having the meeting and produce minutes. The key being that the time is spent doing things we need to do and not making up thinks to do so that it looks like we are doing things.

Outsidethebox · 20-11-2013 12:02AM

We have been granted another after study for Crome park hours in my school. That's four of the hours used up on something that benefits the kids.

Any other schools doing this?

Teacher22 · 20-11-2013 12:17AM

Who can opt out of s&s

endakenny · 20-11-2013 02:40AM

Benicetomonty wrote: »

FEMPI is already in operation. He could of course put in place the more Draconian measures he has available to him under the legislation but I feel, like others, he would've already done it by now if he had ever planned to do it. Making teachers redundant would have a disastrous effect on 6th year groups that would be comparable to a strike, even with a replacement (TUI, or non-union presumably) teacher on hand.

I'm speaking from my position as an English teacher here but that replacement would likely have to read and study for themselves a number of texts in order to be properly able to teach them effectively in a relatively small time-scale (ie before the mocks and then before June). I don't believe parents would stand for it, especially if they like the original teacher and are happy with what he/she is doing.

The parent's council can say what they like, but I believe the vast majority of parents who have children in secondary schools know how much work teachers do, especially those that want to see their kids do well. If the dispute is escalated, they'll be our best friends and the government's worst enemy. Who else are they going to attack? Individual teachers? No. Give out on Newstalk? Already happening, and no let up on Industrial action. Pat King? I'd actually quite like to see that, but doubt he'll much care. He'll have received far worse from his own members by then. So the government is the only target where they can set up shop and demand something is changed and eventually conceded.

Making teachers redundant would have a disastrous effect on all pupils of voluntary secondary schools (VSSs) and on pupils in community and comprehensive schools who are taught by ASTI members, thus turning parents against Quinn.

Furthermore, teachers in VSSs are employed by the boards of management, not by the Department. Therefore, the Department cannot make any of them redundant unless it increases the pupil-teacher ratio.

Benicetomonty · 20-11-2013 09:34AM

endakenny wrote: »

Making teachers redundant would have a disastrous effect on all pupils of voluntary secondary schools (VSSs) and on pupils in community and comprehensive schools who are taught by ASTI members, thus turning parents against Quinn.

Furthermore, teachers in VSSs are employed by the boards of management, not by the Department. Therefore, the Department cannot make any of them redundant unless it increases the pupil-teacher ratio.

All true. From what I can see, raising the pupil teacher ratio at the drop of a hat is the only thing Quinn can really do to threaten teachers. We have already made it quite clear that we're willing to take a paycut over acceptance of HR, so deploying FEMPI to a greater extent is pointless if he wants to have any chance of getting it through. Raising the ratio would make certain teachers equally as redundant of course, but not the type who would have major problems doing s and s for free, (or paying for the privilege of not doing it).

Rossdoc81 · 20-11-2013 06:44PM

If we vote yes I think its all over. We have shown we are weak and can be bullied into voting yes. We are stuck with the 33 Croke park hours, free s + s, and the new JC. And the next time they are cutting they will come back to us again.

Teaching as a profession over the last five years has been torn to shreds. They have hit everything they could - pay, pensions, extra hours, s+s, sick days, maternity leave, pupil teacher ratio, career guidance, special needs. The list goes on. I've had three of my LC's over the last few years go off and do the same teaching course as me. They are in college now and I wonder what kind of job they will be coming out to.

What we need now is a huge no vote to send out a message. After that we need to hold ground and don't listen to the misinformation, threats and the bullying. We don't need public sympathy. It could prove useful but its not essential. I don't think Quinn or the government have the will to take us head on and close schools. There are ASTI members in 80% of schools so it will cause chaos. If it happens we have to bear it out and remember its short a term hassle for a long term gain (32 years in my case). The power we have in leaving pupils at home is huge.

I think the only thing that could let us down is apathy and fear. People not educating themselves as to whats going on, listening to misinfrormation and voting yes because of fear. Also people taking the short term view that I am sick of voting so I'll just vote yes, or I can't be bothered with the hassle of industrial action and strikes. This is what the government is banking on with this 3rd ballot. If this happens we as a profession will look like a joke.

If we hold our line I don't see a way out for Quinn apart from quietly giving us the concessions we want. All the other public service unions have already signed up for Haddington so theres nothing they can do until 2018 anyway, and people have short memories. Quinn can't pull S+S. The laying off of permanent teachers threat makes no sense to me at all and would take him to absolute war with no going back. He could raise the pupil teacher ratio but we have dealt with this before.

This is definitely a fight we can win, and one I think we have to win. It will take another no vote, possibly school closures, lost wages, and public abuse. But I have no problem dealing with all that in the short term for 30+ years of benefits.

acequion · 20-11-2013 06:55PM

When this new ballot was confirmed I was initially worried that many voters in my school, where there was a huge No majority last time,might swing to Yes, and indeed at first many seemed to be considering it. However I'm delighted to report that the No is not only still alive but kicking, as everyone I've spoken to in recent days, are fervently no and angry at being asked again. To those in schools where a swing is a danger, I would suggest the following:

Ask for an ASTI staff meeting asap.At the meeting be vocal. Remind everyone that:
1. Approx 20% can opt out of S&S, but must pay for it for the rest of their careers. Paying not to do work they never did or did and gave up. Emphasise the dubious legality of that.
Approx 80% can't opt out, EVER. Highly discriminatory and in itself,a reason to say No.
We've got used to normal working hours but if we vote Yes, we'll have to make up all the hated CP hours and be back to after school P/T hours. So, a very happy new year to look forward to.
If we vote Yes, it's full steam ahead with the new JC and all the extra work that will entail and also individual performance evaluations. By voting No,we remain outside all of that and force the minister to at least reconsider. We need him to face up to teachers' concerns now and not at some vague point in the future.
Saying Yes now after two strong No's will have meant it was all for nothing.The longer we resist HR,the stronger our case.
Tell them of the anecdotal evidence that life in TUI schools is now much more difficult.A poster Rafared posted about his own experience of this some pages back on this thread and I've heard many similar stories.The enforced S&S,which will continue for 80% of teachers, has taken away a huge chunk of their time and is already causing huge stress.
The bailout ends on December 15th and the economy is supposedly in recovery, making FEMPI a much lesser threat than it was when legislated last June.

Also, print out and photocopy astifightback material and put copies all over your staff room.

Teacher22 · 20-11-2013 07:25PM

I wonder if there are many teachers thinking of opting out of s&s

km79 · 20-11-2013 07:27PM

Rossdoc81 wrote: »

If we vote yes I think its all over. We have shown we are weak and can be bullied into voting yes. We are stuck with the 33 Croke park hours, free s + s, and the new JC. And the next time they are cutting they will come back to us again.

Teaching as a profession over the last five years has been torn to shreds. They have hit everything they could - pay, pensions, extra hours, s+s, sick days, maternity leave, pupil teacher ratio, career guidance, special needs. The list goes on. I've had three of my LC's over the last few years go off and do the same teaching course as me. They are in college now and I wonder what kind of job they will be coming out to.

What we need now is a huge no vote to send out a message. After that we need to hold ground and don't listen to the misinformation, threats and the bullying. We don't need public sympathy. It could prove useful but its not essential. I don't think Quinn or the government have the will to take us head on and close schools. There are ASTI members in 80% of schools so it will cause chaos. If it happens we have to bear it out and remember its short a term hassle for a long term gain (32 years in my case). The power we have in leaving pupils at home is huge.

I think the only thing that could let us down is apathy and fear. People not educating themselves as to whats going on, listening to misinfrormation and voting yes because of fear. Also people taking the short term view that I am sick of voting so I'll just vote yes, or I can't be bothered with the hassle of industrial action and strikes. This is what the government is banking on with this 3rd ballot. If this happens we as a profession will look like a joke.

If we hold our line I don't see a way out for Quinn apart from quietly giving us the concessions we want. All the other public service unions have already signed up for Haddington so theres nothing they can do until 2018 anyway, and people have short memories. Quinn can't pull S+S. The laying off of permanent teachers threat makes no sense to me at all and would take him to absolute war with no going back. He could raise the pupil teacher ratio but we have dealt with this before.

This is definitely a fight we can win, and one I think we have to win. It will take another no vote, possibly school closures, lost wages, and public abuse. But I have no problem dealing with all that in the short term for 30+ years of benefits.

Great post and shows younger teachers are not being pressured to vote No by senior teachers as one or two posters were suggesting......

teacherhead · 20-11-2013 08:49PM

I would imagine also that the croke park hours will have to be squeezed into whatever remains if the school year also if ye vote yes. That has to be a major factor in pushing a no cos you'll be back an awful lot to make up the time lost hIle the industrial action is ongoing. It would actually be worse than having accepted it first time around in my view.

newholland · 20-11-2013 09:08PM

Only teachers who had opted out before can now opt out. I would think that Asti should accept it like the tui there is no point in not accepting in my opinion. The changes in this new deal are so tiny the government are not giving any ground.

Icsics · 20-11-2013 09:20PM

There certainly IS a point in not accepting! I went into teaching to teach my subject, not be a slave to CP hrs & pointless meetings. I have 2 children in crèche, every extra hour costs me €10. I've had enough, we've had a taste of what school used to be like, I'm not willing to sign that away.

newholland · 20-11-2013 09:24PM

Icsics wrote: »

There certainly IS a point in not accepting! I went into teaching to teach my subject, not be a slave to CP hrs & pointless meetings. I have 2 children in crèche, every extra hour costs me €10. I've had enough, we've had a taste of what school used to be like, I'm not willing to sign that away.

What do these pointless meetings involve?

spurious · 20-11-2013 09:27PM

newholland wrote: »

What do these pointless meetings involve?

We had one spectacular one where a woman started off by telling us she did not draw up the Powerpoint presentation and then read the slides to us as if we were children.
No idea what it was about and frankly couldn't care less. If she'd just given the handout I might have read it (and it wouldn't have taken me two hours). Utter waste of time.

newholland · 20-11-2013 09:30PM

spurious wrote: »

We had one spectacular one where a woman started off by telling us she did not draw up the Powerpoint presentation and then read the slides to us as if we were children.
No idea what it was about and frankly couldn't care less. If she'd just given the handout I might have read it (and it wouldn't have taken me two hours). Utter waste of time.

I assume this was Croke Park as opposed to a staff meeting?

spurious · 20-11-2013 10:08PM

newholland wrote: »

I assume this was Croke Park as opposed to a staff meeting?

It was under CP and we all had to be there. We hardly ever have proper useful staff meetings anymore.

Icsics · 20-11-2013 10:18PM

These staff meetings are so important we've had them all cancelled since Ind Act began!

evolving_doors · 20-11-2013 10:44PM

newholland wrote: »

What do these pointless meetings involve?

Talking about the future of education and how great things are gonna be ....by all the paperwork and scrutiny that's gonna happen...

Funnily enough the curriculum is going to get as vague as hell but the monitoring of the teachers 'performance' is going to get ridiculously nitpickey.

ethical · 20-11-2013 10:46PM

Our staff meetings are a whole load of sh1t. Middle management is totally ignored The interesting points many staff want discussed are left to the tail end of the meeting and never get discussed in any detail,we are under a dictatorship where management hide behind a 'habit' when it suits and boy does it suit when anything deemed 'controversial' comes up!!!.At a recent Parent Teacher Meeting the School Steward asked Management could a note be put on the door informing parents of the industrial action and that teachers would not be able to stay beyond 4.oo.Mgmt refused (eventhough, a member of ASTI) and the School Steward put the notice up inspite of the refusal.

Teacher22 · 20-11-2013 11:21PM

I thought any teacher could opt out of s&s as long as they had not tied it into their pension

Pwpane · 20-11-2013 11:57PM

Teacher22 wrote: »

I thought any teacher could opt out of s&s as long as they had not tied it into their pension

Please try reading the documentation. You'll find it all on the ASTI website: asti.ie

For example, an extract from the DES proposals:

A teacher who had not been in receipt of the S&S allowance on a pensionable basis
during the 2012/13 school year may opt-out of the requirement to carry out S&S duties,
subject to the application to their pay of an appropriate adjustment.

It's all in English.

seavill · 21-11-2013 12:16AM

Pwpane wrote: »

Please try reading the documentation. You'll find it all on the ASTI website: asti.ie

For example, an extract from the DES proposals:

It's all in English.

Unnecessary

acequion · 21-11-2013 12:33AM

ethical wrote: »

Our staff meetings are a whole load of sh1t. Middle management is totally ignored The interesting points many staff want discussed are left to the tail end of the meeting and never get discussed in any detail,we are under a dictatorship where management hide behind a 'habit' when it suits and boy does it suit when anything deemed 'controversial' comes up!!!.At a recent Parent Teacher Meeting the School Steward asked Management could a note be put on the door informing parents of the industrial action and that teachers would not be able to stay beyond 4.oo.Mgmt refused (eventhough, a member of ASTI) and the School Steward put the notice up inspite of the refusal.

Your school sounds exactly like mine,ethical. Total dictatorship from the top and meetings full of them pushing their agenda to an increasingly disconnected staff.
What democratic times we live in,eh!

Teacher22 · 21-11-2013 12:36AM

Pwpane wrote: »

Please try reading the documentation. You'll find it all on the ASTI website: asti.ie

For example, an extract from the DES proposals:

It's all in English.

Thanks for your nice reply. I came on here to inform myself about these issues if you think my questions are annoying ignore them.

Teacher22 · 21-11-2013 12:37AM

Not necessary

Pwpane · 21-11-2013 12:42AM

seavill wrote: »

Unnecessary

I don't agree. Several posters here have complained about teachers' ignorance of what's in this deal and about the importance of passing on accurate information. The most accurate information is available at the touch of a couple of buttons to someone who is already online. So what is the disincentive to go look at it? The dislike of reading official language, I suggest - it's too much work. I'm tired of people wanting to pick my brains just because they won't use their own. It really isn't that hard to just read the documentation in front of you.

Peter Flynt · 21-11-2013 12:59AM

If you vote YES - Remember that Croke Park-Haddington Road are not just for Christmas. . . They're for life.

PS - That should be on a poster in all staff rooms.

Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

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