Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

15-11-2013 1:38pm

RayCun wrote: »

There are two people in that situation behaving dangerously. Cyclists are at least part of the problem.

HGVs kill a lot of people of different types (not just cyclists) in urban environments.

They are the common factor, they are also the vehicles that are driven by professionals and that are regulated and should meet minimum safety standards.

As a cyclist I would take care around large vehicles and I teach my children to do the same, but I don't agree that this problem can best be solved by educating cyclists and pedestrians. Aside from anything else public education efforts are never particularly successful.

RayCun · 15-11-2013 1:45pm

I don't think it's the only thing that should be done, but educating cyclists about the dangers of undertaking large vehicles is at least part of the solution. A lot of emphasis is put on wearing high-vis because it is important to be visible to other road users. Cyclists should also be told about these very dangerous situations when they could be completely invisible.

tomasrojo · 15-11-2013 2:49pm

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think it's the only thing that should be done, but educating cyclists about the dangers of undertaking large vehicles is at least part of the solution. A lot of emphasis is put on wearing high-vis because it is important to be visible to other road users. Cyclists should also be told about these very dangerous situations when they could be completely invisible.

Indeed. So they should take a very large part of the time they waste telling people about issues where benefits are marginal, such as wearing hi-viz during times of good visibility, and use it to tell them not to undertake large vehicles at junctions and entrances.

droidus · 15-11-2013 3:06pm

Riding the cycling superhighway: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/video/2013/nov/15/cyclist-london-cycle-superhighway-2-video

tomasrojo · 15-11-2013 5:03pm

droidus wrote: »

Riding the cycling superhighway: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/video/2013/nov/15/cyclist-london-cycle-superhighway-2-video

That is really poor. In fact, it's exactly the type of road I avoid: busy, quite narrow lanes, and, most relevantly, lots of construction traffic. It's not suitable as things stand to be recommended as a route for cycling.

Valentine1 · 15-11-2013 5:20pm

droidus wrote: »

Riding the cycling superhighway: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/video/2013/nov/15/cyclist-london-cycle-superhighway-2-video

I am flabberghasted that a civic office could describe that pathetic blue paint as a "Cycle Superhighway." It smacks of branding and management speak where the words used have no reflection on the truth of the matter.

humbert · 15-11-2013 7:18pm

Valentine1 wrote: »

I am flabberghasted that a civic office could describe that pathetic blue paint as a "Cycle Superhighway." It smacks of branding and management speak where the words used have no reflection on the truth of the matter.

It's a testament to the modern age we live in that you can build a superhighway with nothing more than a bucket of paint.

Lawr · 15-11-2013 7:46pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Aside from anything else public education efforts are never particularly successful.

On what basis is this claim made? Do you want to cite a study or two that would validate this claim, or do you mean that public education never works for you?

HivemindXX · 15-11-2013 9:37pm

Valentine1 wrote: »

I am flabberghasted that a civic office could describe that pathetic blue paint as a "Cycle Superhighway." It smacks of branding and management speak where the words used have no reflection on the truth of the matter.

Incredible really. I don't usually click on links to videos but I'm glad I did in that case. I assumed that this would just be plagued by the usual incompetent junction designs but that ticks almost all the boxes for terrible design. The only thing I didn't see was the telegraph pole in the middle of the track.

AnotherView · 15-11-2013 10:41pm

Christ another cyclist killed in London (Roehampton) this evening

Hit by a lorry

tomasrojo · 18-11-2013 10:58am

Follow-up by BSNYC:

http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.ie/2013/11/bsnyc-friday-no-quiz-for-you-instead.html?m=1

In a nutshell, we are all binmen now (except for motorists).

PWEI · 18-11-2013 10:00pm

Another cyclist killed in London today;

http://news.sky.com/story/1170420/london-cyclist-deaths-sixth-in-13-days

Hit by another lorry.
Without trying to sound like a Daily Express journalist, I'd be interested to know the nationality of the HGV drivers involved in these accidents.
I did read somewhere last year that a lot of UK companies are hiring non UK drivers from Eastern Europe on the cheap & in a lot of the cases the drivers had fake HGV licences.

I've driven in the UK and I found British drivers excellent, very patient & courteous on the road. When I lived there I always found British people to be more polite, queue jumpers tended to be Mediterranean.

19-11-2013 10:25am

Lawr wrote: »

On what basis is this claim made? Do you want to cite a study or two that would validate this claim, or do you mean that public education never works for you?

They suffer from all the problems that broadcast advertising suffers from, but in addition they are crippled (or often are, some can work) by focusing on facts and figures rather than the emotive buttons that profit-driven advertisers are more comfortable pushing - and that are more effective in changing behaviour.

How would you target commuter cyclists? As a marketing professional (which I am) I would struggle to do that. They probably index a little higher among certain publications and TV shows but really, they make up a small % of the population and the kind of campaign we might expect would be a like taking a sledgehammer to a nut in terms of cost / benefit.

Lorry drivers, on the other hand, are a licensed and regulated profession, so speaking to them and enforcing specific behaviour should be comparatively easy.

Mint Sauce · 19-11-2013 11:07am

And nearly a 7th in only two weeks. Article does not say weather lorry was turning or not.

No point always blaming the drivers though, cyclists also have to show awareness as well.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/miracle-hes-alive-cyclist-escapes-major-injury-in-crash-with-lorry-at-camden-station-8948408.html

Pigeon Reaper · 19-11-2013 12:32pm

Mint Sauce wrote: »

And nearly a 7th in only two weeks. Article does not say weather lorry was turning or not.

No point always blaming the drivers though, cyclists also have to show awareness as well.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/miracle-hes-alive-cyclist-escapes-major-injury-in-crash-with-lorry-at-camden-station-8948408.html

Did you even read the article? It clearly states that the cyclist was hit from behind by the truck. No amount of awareness on the cyclist behalf would prevent an overtaking truck from running them over.

guttenberg · 19-11-2013 12:36pm

Watching that Guardian cyclists video, what realistically can be done to improve that flyover junction from 3 minutes on? build a seperate over/underpass for cyclists? build into the light sequence for cyclist only movement?

Stollaire · 19-11-2013 1:05pm

Mint Sauce wrote: »

And nearly a 7th in only two weeks. Article does not say weather lorry was turning or not.

No point always blaming the drivers though, cyclists also have to show awareness as well.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/miracle-hes-alive-cyclist-escapes-major-injury-in-crash-with-lorry-at-camden-station-8948408.html

Did you even attempt to read past the headline!?

monument · 19-11-2013 2:44pm

Mint Sauce wrote: »

And nearly a 7th in only two weeks. Article does not say weather lorry was turning or not.

No point always blaming the drivers though, cyclists also have to show awareness as well.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/miracle-hes-alive-cyclist-escapes-major-injury-in-crash-with-lorry-at-camden-station-8948408.html

This tweet springs to mind (as I'm sure it's going to do so again and again)...

RT @ianwalker: Do people realise they're effectively saying "Cyclist A behaves badly so it's okay if Cyclist B dies"? Imagine saying that for another group

guttenberg wrote: »

Watching that Guardian cyclists video, what realistically can be done to improve that flyover junction from 3 minutes on? build a seperate over/underpass for cyclists? build into the light sequence for cyclist only movement?

One of those or maybe the Dutch-style roundabout which is being tested in the UK.

droidus · 19-11-2013 2:46pm

"FINAL UPDATE: At Norwich Magistrates court on 19th November, Emma Way was found not guilty of driving without due care and attention; guilty of failing to stop after an incident; and guilty of failing to report that incident. She told the magistrates her original tweet was “the biggest regret of my life so far.” So, no regrets about hitting the cyclist, just getting caught admitting she had hit the cyclist! Way was fined £337, ordered to pay £300 costs and had 7 points added to her licence for the failure to stop and failure to report collision. After leaving court she refused to answer reporter’s questions because she had “signed an exclusive TV deal.” That’s right, she going to profit from all this. She’s to be appear on ITV’s Daybreak breakfast show. But maybe some other vehicles (with wing mirrors) are being lined up for her? How about? I Pay Road Tax Get Me Out Of Here; Tis My Way or the Highway. Any more? #EmmaWayTVshows"

http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as-road-tax/i-knocked-a-cyclist-off-his-bike-i-have-right-of-way-he-doesnt-even-pay-road-tax/

Jawgap · 19-11-2013 2:53pm

Her quote from the BBC report on the case.....

"It is the biggest regret of my life so far."

Makes me wonder what she's got lined up for her next trick......

droidus · 19-11-2013 2:54pm

More victim blaming: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/19/boris-johnson-considers-banning-cyclists-headphones

bambergbike · 19-11-2013 3:08pm

guttenberg wrote: »

Watching that Guardian cyclists video, what realistically can be done to improve that flyover junction from 3 minutes on? build a seperate over/underpass for cyclists? build into the light sequence for cyclist only movement?

I've never cycled in London, but I know that some cyclists avoid some of the worst junctions by using a messy patchwork of slow and inefficient routes - towpaths and the like. There must be scope for making some of those alternative routes much quicker than they are now and safer for faster cyclists (boardwalks for pedestrians, a few new cycle bridges in strategic locations, better lighting, better access to parks for cyclists???). If the engineers look at desire lines and work out where people actually want to go, they will probably find that they can provide some "cycle superhighways" that deviate a fair bit from road routes.

Other main cycle routes will follow main roads. The traffic lights can be organized to give cyclists a "green wave" into town - traffic moving at typical cyclist speeds gets all green lights. On those routes, one of the key things you can do to improve cycle safety is banning the turns that are currently causing the worst headaches for cyclists. The ranty highwayman (good London-based bike blogger/engineer with lots of insider insights) has a list of things that could be implemented practically overnight (purely with traffic cones etc.) and firmed up into more permanent arrangements after a phase of experimentation:

http://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.de/2013/11/cycling-in-london-what-could-be-done-now.html

He points out that TfL and the boroughs managed to co-operate fairly seamlessly during the Olympics, and that there are plenty of situations (like burst water mains) where the roads guys just charge straight into dangerous situations with their traffic cones and sort out the bureacracy and the politics later on.

Jawgap · 19-11-2013 3:17pm

Chris Boardman has chipped in

Boardman, British Cycling's policy adviser, said in an open letter to the mayor: "When I rode alongside you to help you launch your vision for cycling in March this year, you made a verbal promise to look at the successful experiences of Paris and many other cities in restricting the movements of heavy vehicles during peak hours.

Chris Boardman said London had an "opportunity to do something now"
"London has an opportunity to emulate and surpass Paris and to lead the way for the other ambitious cycling cities across Britain.

"Let's not waste this opportunity to do something now."

ericzeking · 19-11-2013 3:18pm

droidus wrote: »

More victim blaming: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/19/boris-johnson-considers-banning-cyclists-headphones

In fairness, I commute every day on the bike on roads alot less busy than London and I don't know how people do it with headphones, you need all your wits about you to keep yourself safe.

That's not to mention the fact that it kind of gives off the impression of being in your own world and not giving a toss about anyone else which is only fuel for perceptions that already exist.

I'd only consider using headphones on a dedicated cycle lane...but I very rarely use these and never for a full journey.

bambergbike · 19-11-2013 3:29pm

ericzeking wrote: »

I'd only consider using headphones on a dedicated cycle lane...but I very rarely use these and never for a full journey.

I need my hearing to be more acute when I'm "only" sharing space with other bikes. I could probably hear a truck coming up behind me even when listening to loud music (haven't tried), but I might not hear the soft clicking of a freewheel as a fast cyclist comes up behind even with the music switched off if I had headphones in.

Sometimes cyclists think nothing of breaking every rule in the book when they're on "safe" infrastructure

Alek · 19-11-2013 3:33pm

I have only one earbud in (left) to be able to hear the traffic. When going through busy areas I completely forget about the music - my brain is 100% picking up the surroundings.

OTOH, why aren't car radios banned then?

RayCun · 19-11-2013 3:37pm

Alek wrote: »

OTOH, why aren't car radios banned then?

Because if you're in a car with the engine running and the windows rolled up, your sense of hearing is not going to do you a lot of good anyway :rolleyes:

(next question: so should deaf cyclists be banned? :rolleyes: )

donkey balls · 19-11-2013 3:55pm

Mint Sauce wrote: »

And nearly a 7th in only two weeks. Article does not say weather lorry was turning or not.

No point always blaming the drivers though, cyclists also have to show awareness as well.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/miracle-hes-alive-cyclist-escapes-major-injury-in-crash-with-lorry-at-camden-station-8948408.html

Just read the article you posted and looked at the pics if the truck collided with the cyclist from behind, The back wheel and frame would be in bits but they seem to be intact in the picture.
I also had a look at Google maps and it would seem that the truck was going down a one way system,So the driver would not be turning either left or right.
A lot of companies these days with large fleets of trucks are using in built cameras to record everything a driver would see so that they can be used in case of an accident/incident.
The majority of Bus & Truck drivers do not plan to go out and mow down cyclists or pedestrians, I know from my days when out on the road that I would stop about 6/8 feet away from the actual stop sign at the lights.
The reason for this is to give me a bigger picture on what is going on around me and to see pedestrians and cyclists better,But what normally happened this been Ireland people would not use the crossing at the lights but would walk out right in front of the truck.
Depending on the truck used a driver can be 6/8 feet above the ground while siting in the truck and even though there is a mirror looking down the front of the truck,If the driver looks at the mirror before pulling off there is still the chance of someone walking out in front of the truck.

Alek · 19-11-2013 4:27pm

Because if you're in a car with the engine running and the windows rolled up, your sense of hearing is not going to do you a lot of good anyway

If eyesight is enough for a driver then, why isn't it for a cyclist?

Cyclists don't have mirrors, but they can look back before performing any major manouver. This is even more effective than listening if a car is just about to overtake.

RayCun · 19-11-2013 4:45pm

Alek wrote: »

If eyesight is enough for a driver then, why isn't it for a cyclist?

Cyclists don't have mirrors, but they can look back before performing any major manouver. This is even more effective than listening if a car is just about to overtake.

The problem being that the cyclist has to think "I am about to perform a major manoeuvre, I had better look over my shoulder", but they don't have to think "I am am about to perform a major manoeuvre, I had better turn on my ears".
Motorists are told to check their mirrors before turning, yes, but also to check their mirrors constantly as they drive.

I don't think anyone recommends listening as a substitute for a shoulder check.

Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

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