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Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

  • 13-11-2013 09:34AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭


    It seems the answer to that question - in America - is a modestly qualified 'yes'

    Opinion piece from the New York Times - btw, it's editorial position is not in favour of mowing down cyclists!
    SAN FRANCISCO — EVERYBODY who knows me knows that I love cycling and that I’m also completely freaked out by it. I got into the sport for middle-aged reasons: fat; creaky knees; the delusional vanity of tight shorts. Registering for a triathlon, I took my first ride in decades. Wind in my hair, smile on my face, I decided instantly that I would bike everywhere like all those beautiful hipster kids on fixies. Within minutes, however, I watched an S.U.V. hit another cyclist, and then I got my own front wheel stuck in a streetcar track, sending me to the pavement.

    I made it home alive and bought a stationary bike trainer and workout DVDs with the ex-pro Robbie Ventura guiding virtual rides on Wisconsin farm roads, so that I could sweat safely in my California basement. Then I called my buddy Russ, one of 13,500 daily bike commuters in Washington, D.C. Russ swore cycling was harmless but confessed to awakening recently in a Level 4 trauma center, having been hit by a car he could not remember. Still, Russ insisted I could avoid harm by assuming that every driver was “a mouth-breathing drug addict with a murderous hatred for cyclists.”


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,639 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Russ insisted I could avoid harm by assuming that every driver was “a mouth-breathing drug addict with a murderous hatred for cyclists.”

    replace the word cyclist with any other form of transport I'm using at the time, that how I always treat the roads :pac:


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    He is just a crank, take no heed of that report.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Micilin Muc


    yop wrote: »
    He is just a crank, take no heed of that report.

    A crank, peddling his own views.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭rollingscone


    A crank, peddling his own views.

    Are you suggesting that this is just spin?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,489 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.ie/2013/11/shafted-again.html

    "This op-ed reads like a homophobe defending gay marriage, but saying that homosexuals should "act less faggy" in order to earn the respect of straight people."


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Lumen wrote: »
    http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.ie/2013/11/shafted-again.html

    "This op-ed reads like a homophobe defending gay marriage, but saying that homosexuals should "act less faggy" in order to earn the respect of straight people."

    How did this thread jump from some bloke being petrified of cycling after three isolated incidents, one of which affected him directly and was of his own making, which therefore questions the purpose of the article, and end up on gay marriage?!?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    A crank, peddling his own views.

    A crank looking to shaft cyclists ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 326 ✭✭AnotherView


    5 cyclists dead in London in 9 days ......

    Imagine if that was a gunman or a terrorist ....it would be headline news around the world


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,489 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Imagine if that was a gunman or a terrorist ....it would be headline news around the world
    Whereas if it happened somewhere else it probably wouldn't even get a mention.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_July%E2%80%93December_2013


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,959 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Newspaper articles about cyclists in the English-speaking world are depressing similar.

    I suppose it's a distraction from inflating property bubbles.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Just looking at a story about the London incidents - they're all cyclist -v- bus / HGV collisions.

    Just an observation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,959 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Still on the subject of New York journalists and cyclists, I like this correction and clarification from a New York magazine (few posts after the bikesnobnyc post linked to above):
    The sentence "Few motorists would dare blow through a red light, even if it appeared safe to do so" has been removed from the second paragraph. A 2000 report indicates that drivers in New York City run 1.23 million red lights each day, which is more than a few.
    http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.ie/2013/11/my-wednesday-is-your-wednesday.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Just looking at a story about the London incidents - they're all cyclist -v- bus / HGV collisions.

    Just an observation.

    I was going to start a thread about this. I find it very interesting that almost every one of these accidents is with large vehicles, which would imply that it is the driver's lack of visibility that is the main problem. Mental note to be super careful near any big vehicle.

    I'd love to hear precise accounts of these accidents; who was at fault; did they indicate; were they in a blind spot? It would be very useful for planning to avoid similar circumstances.

    Has anyone cycled in the areas mentioned in the BBC article? Are they especially dodgy?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭Stollaire


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Still on the subject of New York journalists and cyclists, I like this correction and clarification from a New York magazine (few posts after the bikesnobnyc post linked to above):


    http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.ie/2013/11/my-wednesday-is-your-wednesday.html

    That's an amazing statistic: 1.23 million red lights broken each day by cars etc!

    Have we any stats for red light jumping by vehicles in Irish cities?

    Anecdotally it appears to be at least one if not two at every junction, on every sequence, every day from my own observations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Just looking at a story about the London incidents - they're all cyclist -v- bus / HGV collisions.

    Just an observation.

    Are they all on left turns, I wonder?
    As well as educating drivers and cyclists about the dangers of collisions, maybe road design needs to be looked at, especially since some of those collisions are happening on 'cycling superhighways'.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    I think there could be more awareness from cyclists about blind spots in lorries. I grew up around them (my father drove a lorry) so am super careful around them but they really can't see quite a bit around themselves, yet I find after 11 years in Dublin I have become more blasé about their blindspots.

    They had a lorry parked in O Connell st a good while ago and were inviting cyclists and pedestrians to sit in it to see for themselves how lucy you can/can't see-I think this is a brilliant idea, and there should be buses and coaches used too.

    However I also think it should work both ways, bus/taxi drives could maybe have to do even a little cycling around town to get their licenses, to give them a better understanding of those road users. It'll never happen though!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,479 ✭✭✭rollingscone


    Of course it's ok to kill cyclists.

    They don't even pay an offset tax based on the damage and pollution caused by our vehicles...and we delay vital journeys to the shops b, it must be seconds!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭DaithiMC


    Stollaire wrote: »
    That's an amazing statistic: 1.23 million red lights broken each day by cars etc!

    Have we any stats for red light jumping by vehicles in Irish cities?


    Anecdotally it appears to be at least one if not two at every junction, on every sequence, every day from my own observations.

    That's irrelevant in my opinion, just because cars jump red lights doesn't make it ok for cyclists to. I think this argument of who jumps most red lights is a distraction from solving the issues of mixed road use. Of course its dangerous when a car breaks a red light and causes an accident but that is equally dangerous to other motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists.

    From my own observations cycling in to work every day, far, far more cyclists break red lights than cars but the comparison is meaningless.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭Stollaire


    DaithiMC wrote: »
    That's irrelevant in my opinion, just because cars jump red lights doesn't make it ok for cyclists to. I think this argument of who jumps most red lights is a distraction from solving the issues of mixed road use. Of course its dangerous when a car breaks a red light and causes an accident but that is equally dangerous to other motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists.

    From my own observations cycling in to work every day, far, far more cyclists break red lights than cars but the comparison is meaningless.

    Tóg é go réidh a Dháithí, did I say it was ok for anyone to jump red lights?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭DaithiMC


    Stollaire wrote: »
    Tóg é go réidh a Dháithí, did I say it was ok for anyone to jump red lights?

    Not intending to be confrontational at all and no, you didn't say it was ok for anyone to break lights but the mention of it I read as implication - suppose I just am sensitive to cyclists using it as a justification for their treatment of traffic lights as decorations! Apologies if you took offence.... Beidh mé ag cuimhneamh i anseo!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭Valentine1


    In the US using a bicycle as a mode of transport is seen as the preserve of those who either cannot afford a car or are mentally deficient in their decision not to use a car. In most circumstances you would have to be out of your mind to commute by bike as the roads are so unsuited to it (having been designed to accommodate cars exclusively and drivers so inconsiderate.

    Recreational cycling is much more acceptable but only if it is off the Off Road/MTB variety. perhaps this is because these sports are "extreme" or something. If you admit to owning a road bike everyone thinks you are some sort of Lycra fetishist who shouldn't be allowed out in polite society:P.

    On the Cyclists and HGV issue I think many cyclists have very poor awareness about how they should and shouldn't interact with these vehicles and buses on the road. I regularly see people go down the inside of buses and trucks in Dublin, often doing that one foot on the path shuffle because there is so little space.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    RayCun wrote: »
    Are they all on left turns, I wonder?
    As well as educating drivers and cyclists about the dangers of collisions, maybe road design needs to be looked at, especially since some of those collisions are happening on 'cycling superhighways'.


    At least one was on a straight peice of road, that was also shared with a tram route, not sure if the cyclist getting his wheels caught in the tracks was a factor or not. Have not seen any ofthe other pics to be honest.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Valentine1 wrote: »
    In the US using a bicycle as a mode of transport is seen as the preserve of those who either cannot afford a car or are mentally deficient in their decision not to use a car. In most circumstances you would have to be out of your mind to commute by bike as the roads are so unsuited to it (having been designed to accommodate cars exclusively and drivers so inconsiderate.

    This isn't true of everywhere.

    Cycle commuting is extremely common in some cities, Portland Oregon being a great example, where the buses and tram (The MAX) even have a bike holder on the front to encourage more people to bike and use public transport in connection with each other. So even if you live 20km from work you can bike to a bus stop, put your bike on the front of the bus and then cycle from a stop closer to work for the last leg of your commute.

    large_TriMetBus.JPG


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭Valentine1


    Seaneh wrote: »
    This true of everywhere.

    Cycle is extremely common in some cities, Portland Oregon being a great example, where the buses and tram (The MAX) even have a bike holder on the front to encourage more people to bike and use public transport in connection with each other. So even if you live 20km from work you can bike to a bus stop, put your bike on the front of the bus and then cycle from a stop closer to work for the last leg of your commute.

    large_TriMetBus.JPG

    It is of course common in some cities but these are very much the exception.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭NeedMoreGears


    London cycle deaths

    2010: 10 deaths, four involving HGVs

    2011: 16 deaths, 12 involving HGVs

    2012: 14 deaths, five involving HGVs

    2013 so far: 13 deaths, eight involving HGVs

    Source: TfL


    It would appear the coroner in one of these cases has had enough and has issued instructions to TFL re cyclist education

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/coroner-orders-tfl-to-teach-cyclists-about-danger-of-hgvs-8885729.html

    Some other initiatives include

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dft-and-mayor-announce-plans-to-tackle-hgv-safety-and-support-londons-cycling-revolution

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/microsites/freight/hgvs_and_road_safety.aspx

    Hopefully some of these will be successful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,959 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Some restrictions on HGVs might be in order too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,959 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Valentine1 wrote: »
    It is of course common in some cities but these are very much the exception.
    I remember reading somewhere that the older parts of LA are quite nice to cycle around. I'm pretty sure the writer was serious.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Some restrictions on HGVs might be in order too.

    Hmm I don't know if they can be restricted anymore, they are already not allowed in town during peak hours. I do think cyclists are genuinely unaware of just how little you can see out of a lorry in town, bikes literally disappear underneath your filed of vision and out again-it's scary for both parties. Plus there would be nothing delivered!

    *memories of being with the father backing into Chadwicks on Thomas Street with a 45ft arctic spring to mind. There's no room to turn an arctic in there. Hairy! *


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Valentine1 wrote: »
    It is of course common in some cities but these are very much the exception.

    Err... Bike racks on buses? They are in most major US cities and many smaller ones.

    Valentine1 wrote: »
    In most circumstances you would have to be out of your mind to commute by bike as the roads are so unsuited to it (having been designed to accommodate cars exclusively and drivers so inconsiderate.

    I've cycled in LA and SF and have to call bs on that one.

    And a growing amount of US cities have bike paths and lanes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    Valentine1 wrote: »
    It is of course common in some cities but these are very much the exception.

    I don't agree. Even in traditionally non-cycling friendly cities like where I live, the buses have bike racks. Times are changing. Oh, and you can never generalize about the US. It's not even remotely homogenous.


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