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The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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Comments

  • #3962
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    I'll try again.

    1. Rape is a criminal offense.
    2. The law sets the parameters for what is or is not rape.
    3. If a sexual assault happens that fails to meet that criteria, it cannot by definition, be rape.
    4. Martial sexual assualt was once outside the definition of rape. It now falls within the definition of rape.

    I do hope that clarifies it for you.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3963
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    koth wrote: »
    I'll try again.

    1. Rape is a criminal offense.
    2. The law sets the parameters for what is or is not rape.
    3. If a sexual assault happens that fails to meet that criteria, it cannot by definition, be rape.
    4. Martial sexual assualt was once outside the definition of rape. It now falls within the definition of rape.

    I do hope that clarifies it for you.

    Not really. What is the definition of rape? Specifically in the context of 1 and 2 above.

    As to 4 what you are saying is that marital sexual assault was re-defined as rape, not that rape was redfined.


  • #3964
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    Not really. What is the definition of rape?

    There is no single definition. That's what you don't seem to understand.
    In some cultures, rape was seen less as a crime against a particular girl or woman than as a crime against the head of the household or against chastity. As a consequence, the rape of a virgin was often a more serious crime than of a non-virgin, even a wife or widow, and the rape of a prostitute or other unchaste woman was, in some laws, not a crime because her chastity could not be harmed. Furthermore, the woman's consent was under many legal systems not a defense. In seventeenth-century France, even marriage without parental consent was classified as rape.[27]
    The penalty for rape was often a fine, payable to the father or the husband whose "goods" were "damaged".[28]


    In some laws the woman might marry the rapist instead of his receiving the legal penalty. This was especially prevalent in laws where the crime of rape did not include, as a necessary part, that it be against the woman's will, thus dividing the crime in the current meaning of rape, and a means for a couple to force their families to permit marriage.

    Source

    So in some laws, rape can occur even if the woman consented (much like statuory rape in Ireland).

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3965
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    koth wrote: »
    There is no single definition. That's what you don't seem to understand.

    If that is the case then the word is meaningless.

    Any statement presented that contains the word "rape" can mean anything and it is all down to interpretation.

    If that is the case how is anyone suppose to discuss anything.


  • #3966
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    If that is the case then the word is meaningless.

    Any statement presented that contains the word "rape" can mean anything and it is all down to interpretation.

    If that is the case how is anyone suppose to discuss anything.

    Like anything else. Read up on what you don't understand. I've posted some links regarding rape and what it was defined as historically. It should help you understand what MrPudding was getting at earlier in the thread.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #3967
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    koth wrote: »
    Like anything else. Read up on what you don't understand. I've posted some links regarding rape and what it was defined as historically. It should help you understand what MrPudding was getting at earlier in the thread.


    Oh, I understand what he, and you, are trying to get at. A world defined on a whim where nothing means what it means, and only means what you want it to mean.


  • #3968
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Festus wrote: »
    Oh, I understand what he, and you, are trying to get at. A world defined on a whim where nothing means what it means, and only means what you want it to mean.

    Sweet merciful irony.


  • #3969
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    Oh, I understand what he, and you, are trying to get at. A world defined on a whim where nothing means what it means, and only means what you want it to mean.
    Not at all. If anything I've been showing the word means things other than "what I want it to mean".

    We both agree what rape means. But you have difficulty accepting that historical societies had a different meaning to the word.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3970
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    koth wrote: »
    Not at all. If anything I've been showing the word means things other than "what I want it to mean".

    We both agree what rape means. But you have difficulty accepting that historical societies had a different meaning to the word.
    And whilst it has be re-defined it still has meaning.

    MrP


  • #3971
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    koth wrote: »
    Not at all. If anything I've been showing the word means things other than "what I want it to mean".

    We both agree what rape means. But you have difficulty accepting that historical societies had a different meaning to the word.

    Not true. I accept that at times rape in certain cases or circumstances was not consider a crime.

    What I do not accept is that rape was ever defined as something other than forcing another person into unwanted sexual behaviour.

    The definition of rape never changed. What changed was the law as to when it was a crime who could be charged.

    If I am wrong then present a historical document that defines rape in terms other than we understand it today - forcing a person against their will.


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  • #3972
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    MrPudding wrote: »
    And whilst it has be re-defined it still has meaning.

    MrP
    Exactly. :)

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3973
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    MrPudding wrote: »
    And whilst it has be re-defined it still has meaning.

    MrP


    If it has been redefined it has no meaning.

    It has meaning because it has not been redefined.


  • #3974
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    Not true. I accept that at times rape in certain cases or circumstances was not consider a crime.

    What I do not accept is that rape was ever defined as something other than forcing another person into unwanted sexual behaviour.

    The definition of rape never changed. What changed was the law as to when it was a crime who could be charged.

    If I am wrong then present a historical document that defines rape in terms other than we understand it today - forcing a person against their will.
    I'll do one better. A person will be charged with rape of a minor regardless of whether the minor consented.

    it's this same principle that was applied to married women, albeit the reverse - i.e. that they couldn't refuse sex.

    Rape also meant that a couple got married without their parents consent once upon a time in France.

    Two simple examples that the term has different meanings to the single definition you clutch to.

    more for you to ponder on;

    Rape:
    • 1the crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will:he denied two charges of rape [count noun]:he had committed at least two rapes [as modifier]:a rape victim
    • archaic the abduction of a woman, especially for the purpose of having sexual intercourse with her:the Rape of the Sabine Women
    2the wanton destruction or spoiling of a place:the rape of the countryside

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3975
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Festus wrote: »
    If it has been redefined it has no meaning.

    It has meaning because it has not been redefined.

    then the term gay is meaningless. How can you object to something that has no meaning, i.e. gay marriage.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3976
    mbiking123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    koth wrote: »
    .Rape laws in the United States have been revised over the years, and they vary from state to state.
    .

    Ya but this is Ireland, not in Kansas or NY etc etc


  • #3977
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Ya but this is Ireland, not in Kansas or NY etc etc
    Meh, there was no such thing as marital rape in Ireland until something like 1990.

    MrP


  • #3978
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,055 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Ya but this is Ireland, not in Kansas or NY etc etc

    actually, this is the internet:P

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3979
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Festus wrote: »
    that depends on whether or not you believe in democracy.

    In a democracy the wants and beliefs of the majority can cause issues for some minorities. It all depends on the nature of the democracy you living in.

    Is it a Christian Democracy, a Socialist Democracy or a Communist Democracy?

    Power to the People ultimately depends on the nature and morals of the People.

    Every other country that has decided on this issue has done so without the need for directly referring it to the people. Even in Ireland, there isn't an explicit barrier to same-sex marriage in our Constitution, we're holding a referendum partly to rule out potential legal challenges when the law is changed.

    But that said, while I don't like that we are putting it to a referendum in the first place, I'm confident that the nature and morals of the Irish people are inclined towards equality, and that it will pass.


  • #3980
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Every other country that has decided on this issue has done so without the need for directly referring it to the people. Even in Ireland, there isn't an explicit barrier to same-sex marriage in our Constitution, we're holding a referendum partly to rule out potential legal challenges when the law is changed.

    But that said, while I don't like that we are putting it to a referendum in the first place, I'm confident that the nature and morals of the Irish people are inclined towards equality, and that it will pass.

    I don't think a referendum should be necessary, as it is not an issue that will effect the majority of the population or have the slightest impact on their lives. The only people it will effect is gay people who want to get married. It is no one else's business. It is a matter of human rights and equality and should just be passed. People who are 'against' gay marriage have no good reason to hold this position, and seeing any future law will not affect them, their 'anti gay marriage' stance should be irrelevant.


  • #3981
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    Festus wrote: »
    If that is the case then the word is meaningless.

    Any statement presented that contains the word "rape" can mean anything and it is all down to interpretation.

    If that is the case how is anyone suppose to discuss anything.

    By that logic the term "underage" is meaningless as it varies from place to place and over time.


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  • #3982
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    By that logic the term "underage" is meaningless as it varies from place to place and over time.

    Well yes it is. Whats your point? Do you think their is some age of maturity written into the dna of humans? Or that God decided a date that before which it's a sin and 24 hours later it's fine and dandy?

    These things are based on culture and unless you are saying that we should have a culture that accepts that rights are based on gender, race and sexual orientation then your point is irrelevant.
    Oh wait ,you are saying that rights should be based on sexual orientation, I presume you don't subscribe to race and gender discrimination. Just the stuff you are uncomfortable with.


  • #3983
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Well yes it is. Whats your point? Do you think their is some age of maturity written into the dna of humans? Or that God decided a date that before which it's a sin and 24 hours later it's fine and dandy?

    These things are based on culture and unless you are saying that we should have a culture that accepts that rights are based on gender, race and sexual orientation then your point is irrelevant.
    Oh wait ,you are saying that rights should be based on sexual orientation, I presume you don't subscribe to race and gender discrimination. Just the stuff you are uncomfortable with.

    ??? No, I was saying that "underage" has a legal definition, much like "rape".

    I never said anything about basing rights on sexual orientation and have no idea where you could have gotten that from aside from your own prejudices.

    Nice strawman though.


  • #3984
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    ??? No, I was saying that "underage" has a legal definition, much like "rape".

    I never said anything about basing rights on sexual orientation and have no idea where you could have gotten that from aside from your own prejudices.

    Nice strawman though.

    Ahh yeah, OK then.
    This is a lot of the confusion about what marriage, rape, ect is though. We have a general understanding and presume that it's what the term means. Worse, we assume it always meant that and always will. I know it's hard to think outside the culture you grew up in and all that but we need to realize that things like rape or marriage are cultural constructs not natural laws. The concept developed and changed over time.
    BTW defining the right to restrict the right to marry based on sexual orientation is exactly what the 'defenders' of marriage want to do. So less of a straw man than you would think.


  • #3985
    mbiking123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    BTW defining the right to restrict the right to marry based on sexual orientation is exactly what the 'defenders' of marriage want to do. So less of a straw man than you would think.

    yes but that is because they have a view of marriage being the coming together of two different/opposites, bit like the example I gave of a marriage of timer

    I can understand their view in that they believe a marriage is the coming together of opposites as opposed to the coming together of the same

    I simply see it as giving rights to gay couples for inheritance etc etc.


  • #3986
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    yes but that is because they have a view of marriage being the coming together of two different/opposites, bit like the example I gave of a marriage of timer

    I can understand their view in that they believe a marriage is the coming together of opposites as opposed to the coming together of the same

    I simply see it as giving rights to gay couples for inheritance etc etc.

    So people are timber now? :confused:

    Or are you claiming that words should never change meaning?

    I'm not sure how the etymology of the word marriage has any bearing on a debate on whether same sex marriages should be allowed.


  • #3987
    mbiking123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭mbiking123


    gaynorvader wrote: »
    So people are timber now? :confused:

    Or are you claiming that words should never change meaning?

    I'm not sure how the etymology of the word marriage has any bearing on a debate on whether same sex marriages should be allowed.

    Well we could say marriage is just a word, why are people so concerned over a word - that argument of course goes both ways


  • #3988
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    yes but that is because they have a view of marriage being the coming together of two different/opposites, bit like the example I gave of a marriage of timer

    I can understand their view in that they believe a marriage is the coming together of opposites as opposed to the coming together of the same

    I simply see it as giving rights to gay couples for inheritance etc etc.

    That's only if we look at couples and marriages in terms of gender. There is a lot more to marriage, and relationships in general, than that. Just because a gay couple consists of two men doesn't mean they're both the same people.


  • #3989
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    mbiking123 wrote: »
    Well we could say marriage is just a word, why are people so concerned over a word - that argument of course goes both ways

    "Marriage" is just a word, the argument is actually around the meaning behind the word. And why same-sex marriages (i.e. the joining of two people together in a contractual agreement not to have sex with anyone else and to look after each other, etc.) aren't legal.


  • #3990
    _Redzer_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭_Redzer_


    Alright, so all the hatred, disgust, disapproval and whatever else regarding gay people boils down to the old testament; "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." So since it'd be biologically impossible for me to 'lie' with a man in the same way I would a woman, I guess I'm off the hook!

    Suppose all the naysayers don't have a reason to have anything against homosexuality now :)


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  • #3991
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/former-president-mary-mcaleese-criticises-church-s-stance-on-gays-1.1647572

    Mary Mc on Gays in the RC


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