Nutritionist calls pregnant vegan "deluded" & "irresponsible"

Schwiiing · 15-11-2013 12:29AM

Duggy747 · 15-11-2013 12:29AM

I think I'm losing IQ reading the "facts" on this thread.

I'm a meat eater but vegetarians and vegans can be perfectly healthy, the problem is that there is so much misinformation and agenda-driven muck that people's diets are all screwed up leading to deficincies.

SeaDaily · 15-11-2013 12:30AM

Zillah wrote: »

Cows still feel pain and fear

This is just speculation and cannot be presented as fact. Other animals experience life in ways which are drastically different to the ways in which we humans experience life and as such we cannot assume or take for granted that animals feel fear in a similar way to humans. It is equally viable to suggest that "fear" in animals is simply a response to outside stimuli and does not affect them in the same way as it does humans. We will never be able to experience this "fear" in animals and so why is it not okay to say that animals do not experience fear in the convential way which we view it?

Pixie84 · 15-11-2013 12:34AM

Eeden wrote: »

I've never, ever killed for greed or pleasure. I know some folks think it's "cowardly" to eat meat you haven't killed yourself.

I hardly ever eat meat, but it's not because I'm a vegetarian. I don't rule it out of my diet; I do like meat sometimes.

You were talking about the fact that some animal might eat us and yes they just might but it would be out of hunger...basic instinct. The meat industry on the other hand is interested in profits. They don't care if an animal is mistreated or suffers in the process. Meat is neatly packed up and presented nicely for the consumer in supermarkets. It's all so artificial and people are desensitized to what's behind it all. Meat is so oversupplied and has a lot of wastage. If an animal is going to be killed for food then at least it should be eaten or what was the point? I'm not saying that you personally have killed an animal for greed or pleasure but consumers on the whole should know what they are contributing to.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 15-11-2013 12:34AM

true-or-false wrote: »

Vegans can have perfectly healthy babies.

A woman eating only fruit and the odd salad, cannot.

I'm going to go with false on this one.

Cool Mo D · 15-11-2013 12:35AM

SeaDaily wrote: »

This is just speculation and cannot be presented as fact. Other animals experience life in ways which are drastically different to the ways in which we humans experience life and as such we cannot assume or take for granted that animals feel fear in a similar way to humans. It is equally viable to suggest that "fear" in animals is simply a response to outside stimuli and does not affect them in the same way as it does humans. We will never be able to experience this "fear" in animals and so why is it not okay to say that animals do not experience fear in the convential way which we view it?

Fear in humans nothing more than a response to outside stimuli. Technically any human reaction at all is just a response to outside stimuli. Humans are animals too - there is no fundamental biological justification for saying that emotions affect humans differently to other animals. Maybe they do, and maybe they don't.

Sulla Felix · 15-11-2013 12:37AM

rawn wrote: »

I'm currently studying Nutrition. It's a FETAC level 5, nothing major. But after I complete it, I can call myself a nutritionist and people will listen to me and obey me. Fact. There's a girl in my course who purees all her food and eats it like baby food because she insists it's healthier, better for digestion and more beneficial. She does this for all her meals and guarantee when she is a "nutritionist" when we finish up in May, she will tell people this is the way they should eat. And they'll listen to her because she's a "nutritionist".

You can call yourself a nutritionist right now. So can I for that matter. Its not a protected term like doctoror even nurse. Dietician is protected.

SeaDaily · 15-11-2013 12:46AM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

. Maybe they do, and maybe they don't.

Okay then so why assume that they do? Surely it's a safe bet to stop worrying at all about whether the animal is going to be frightened and just get on and enjoy eating them instead.

norwegianwood · 15-11-2013 12:49AM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

You can call yourself a nutritionist right now. So can I for that matter. Its not a protected term like doctoror even nurse. Dietician is protected.

I'm doing a degree in Nutritional Science and I find this really annoying. When I graduate I'll be a nutritionist but anyone can call themselves that even if they have no clue what they're talking about. People will think they're an authority on the subject and listen to them even if their advice is completely wrong. Dietician actually isn't protected either at the moment, not in Ireland anyway.

thegreatgonzo · 15-11-2013 12:56AM

SeaDaily wrote: »

This is just speculation and cannot be presented as fact. Other animals experience life in ways which are drastically different to the ways in which we humans experience life and as such we cannot assume or take for granted that animals feel fear in a similar way to humans. It is equally viable to suggest that "fear" in animals is simply a response to outside stimuli and does not affect them in the same way as it does humans. We will never be able to experience this "fear" in animals and so why is it not okay to say that animals do not experience fear in the convential way which we view it?

It's pretty well established that animals feel fear, pain and stress, measuring cortisol levels is one indicator. It's not an extreme animal rights position, many meat factories and slaughter houses for instance have adapted procedures to reduce fear and stress in animals prior to killing.

johnny-grunge · 15-11-2013 01:00AM

SeaDaily wrote: »

Okay then so why assume that they do? Surely it's a safe bet to stop worrying at all about whether the animal is going to be frightened and just get on and enjoy eating them instead.

It's far more logical to conclude they do feel pain and fear in some form or another. If an animal has no response to things that harm it it won't make for a very successful animal.

Sulla Felix · 15-11-2013 01:06AM

norwegianwood wrote: »

I'm doing a degree in Nutritional Science and I find this really annoying. When I graduate I'll be a nutritionist but anyone can call themselves that even if they have no clue what they're talking about. People will think they're an authority on the subject and listen to them even if their advice is completely wrong. Dietician actually isn't protected either at the moment, not in Ireland anyway.

Doesntneed to be protected in ireland because dietician is a regulated profession under eu single market legislation. You can't call yourself one be employed as one anywhere in the eu without meeting certain wducational standards.

100 Percent Technologicaly Ignorant · 15-11-2013 01:39AM

Anyone else getting a hankering for a grand lump of meat

whatdoicare · 15-11-2013 01:43AM

In her instagram she's eating salads and fish sushi - so looks like she's getting plenty. Could probably do with some dairy and meat but not half as bad as the article suggests.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 15-11-2013 01:51AM

100 Percent Technologicaly Ignorant wrote: »

Anyone else getting a hankering for a grand lump of meat

You shouldn't describe how you'd like to be with this lady sexually like that. It's bold talk! :mad:

The Dom · 15-11-2013 01:58AM

whatdoicare wrote: »

In her instagram she's eating salads and fish sushi - so looks like she's getting plenty. Could probably do with some dairy and meat but not half as bad as the article suggests.

Eh, that's not fish, it's vegan sushi.

http://instagram.com/p/bLQ5agusuO/

Blazing Salads in Drury St do that occasionally - tis' lovely.

Jimoslimos · 15-11-2013 02:15AM

Any diet that calls for the exclusion of a whole food group cannot be termed ideal. I'd also argue that shipping exotic fruits and nuts halfway around the world to meet dietary requirements is less natural and sustainable than a balanced diet with local Irish produce.

As humans our massive adaptability is what has allowed us to colonise a wide range of habitats. An Eskimo will have a very different diet to someone living on the Indian subcontinent. You don't survive by limiting choice in what is already a limited environment.

The Dom wrote: »

Well, I don't think you can say "cannot" as people have done it.

Raw vegans for example only eat fruit, nuts and salad and many of them have documented their pregnancies and produced very healthy children.

The following woman had two children as a raw vegan:

Restricting kids to a predominately fruit based diet is an extremely irresponsible thing to do, and also dangerous in some tragic cases. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1542293.stm

The Dom · 15-11-2013 02:30AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Restricting kids to a predominately fruit based diet is an extremely irresponsible thing to do, and also dangerous in some tragic cases. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1542293.stm

They believed the child needed "sunlight and fruit" from that article and the child was severely underweight and malnourished.

It very much sounds like they where into breatharianism.

The girl was only nine months old also. At that age, if the child is underweight then the health of the mother needs to be looked at and the quality of her breastmilk and her ability to produce it. At that age most children are not even on solid food yet and so again, how could the vegan diet be to blame. To implicate the raw vegan diet in the girl's death would be akin to someone feeding a child a spoon full of cow's milk and spoon of chicken soup each day and then when the child inevitably died from malnutrition, blame the omnivore diet on it.

Many children live very healthy lives that are vegan from birth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQxk8exaV0U

Edit:

I have read some further articles on the case above and it would seem that the mother also showed signs of undernourishment and yet breastfeeding was still the girl's main source of calories / nutrients and so God alone knows what she may have been deficient in. A vegan diet cannot replace the nutrients found in mother's breast-milk as was stated in the very furst video which I posted earlier where Anne Osbourne was interviewed. At the end of the day and something surely failed that little girl but it was not the vegan diet.

Sadly, the mother has since taken her own life also.

Jimoslimos · 15-11-2013 02:47AM

The Dom wrote: »

They believed the child needed "sunlight and fruit" and the child was malnourished.

How in the name of God could a vegan diet be blamed on that child's death?

You posted earlier

The Dom wrote: »

Well, I don't think you can say "cannot" as people have done it.

Raw vegans for example only eat fruit, nuts and salad and many of them have documented their pregnancies and produced very healthy children.

The following woman had two children as a raw vegan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV-NRtsfiA0

Here's one of her children now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfeU2fagB20

Titles of YouTube videos you posted
Anne Osborne - Fruitarian Pregnancy and Raising Fruitarian Children
ONLY FRUIT DIET (LOW FAT 811) FOR ALL HIS LIFE: BOY KAPI

The Dom · 15-11-2013 02:54AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

You posted earlier

Yes, and your point is what exactly?

Jimoslimos · 15-11-2013 03:09AM

Zillah wrote: »

I wish I had a way to make people take a step back and see with fresh eyes the fact that we kill other animals to take their flesh away from them and put it in our mouths.

Mmmm fresh eyes!
http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2008/10/17/eyeball1tuna_1.jpg

johnny-grunge · 15-11-2013 03:44AM

I'd agree with you The Dom, in that it is possible to get all the nutrients one needs from a raw vegan diet, but I would argue it's not optimal. In order to get everything you need from a raw vegan diet you'd have to be extremely diligent in planning and executing your diet.

Besides the woman referred to in the first post is on a raw vegan diet consisting of 80% carbs, 10% fat and 10% protein, according to her Instagram posts. I'm no expert but I doubt any dietitians would recommend that for your typical adult, let alone a pregnant woman.

JONJO THE MISER · 15-11-2013 07:42AM

Ive had the displeasure to share a house with a vegan years ago, what a fruitcake he was.
I used to love nothing better than cooking a nice rare steak if he was in the kitchen.

Shenshen · 15-11-2013 10:39AM

I haven't had the time nor the patience to look into the lady in question's diet in detail, but if as the article states much of her diet consists of bananas I would question the snesiblilty of it, too.

I know that a vegan diet can easily be just as balanced and healthy as what people would call a "normal" diet, if not in many cases healtheir as vegans would be more likely to spend more time researching their fodd and its nutritional values, as well as prepare their meals themselves as there are precious little ready-made meals or even restaurants catering for them. But an unbalanced vegan diet is just as bad as any unbalanced diet, and it doesn't really make a difference if your unbalanced diet contains dairy or meat or not.

What I do find amusing and interesting (though, truth be told, not at all surprising) is the amount of criticism and open abuse leveled against her in this thread.
I've yet to see anyone in this country walk up to a pregnant woman in a bar and tell her to her face that the drink she's having is extremely likely to adversely affect her child.
A good few of my colleagues in the office got pregnant and had babies over the last few years - did any of these expectant mothers give up their morning cup of coffee? Did they stop smoking?
Yet that behaviour is regarded as ok, while having a particular diet isn't?

Someone needs to explain that to me, because I really don't get what the difference is.

Stark · 15-11-2013 10:47AM

Shenshen wrote:

did any of these expectant mothers give up their morning cup of coffee?

Why is having a morning coffee not okay? And not chastising a stranger in a public place is a different matter to approving of the behaviour.

Shenshen · 15-11-2013 10:49AM

Seachmall wrote: »

But my god is it tastey!

Yes and no.

I know plenty of people who find it simply disgusting. They're vegetarians because they simply don't like meat.

Also, something I've been thinking about for a while now - we consider meat tasty once it's prepared, seasoned and cooked.
I don't know many people who would start salivating at the sight of a cow, nor at the sight of a raw and bloody leg of lamb. People can see the potential tastiness in these, but nobody would start getting hungry at the dight (or smell) of either of them.
Even when cooked, meat will be for the most part a pretty bland and awful thing without salt and herbs or spices.

Yet, if you let people see and smell a lovely ripe and juicy peach...

Shenshen · 15-11-2013 10:52AM

Stark wrote: »

Why is having a morning coffee not okay? And not chastising a stranger in a public place is a different matter to approving of the behaviour.

http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/caffeine.html

There's quite a lot wrong with caffeine intake during pregnancy... but as I said, that didn't stop one of the expecting mothers in our office from having their coffee in the morning, their coke with lunch and their tea in the afternoon.
I did ask one of them once, carefully, and was told that her mum did the same and sure it'll be grand.

Soft Falling Rain · 15-11-2013 10:53AM

stimpson wrote: »

If you want to accuse anyone of abuse, look at the skangers outside the Rotunda smoking and drinking cans.

Bemoans generalisations yet makes generalisations of his own. Give this man a medal.

bronte · 15-11-2013 10:56AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Someone needs to explain that to me, because I really don't get what the difference is.

The difference is everyone loves to have a go at veganism/vegetarianism.
Someone actually went and trolled the vegan/vegetarian forum last night, possibly after reading this thread. It's funny, because I remember getting a huge amount of grief off my 9 year old classmates when I first stopped eating meat.
Nearly 21 years later NOTHING has changed! People are still idiotically childish when they encounter someone/something slightly different to themselves.

Duggy747 · 15-11-2013 11:05AM

Shenshen wrote: »

A good few of my colleagues in the office got pregnant and had babies over the last few years - did any of these expectant mothers give up their morning cup of coffee? Did they stop smoking?
Yet that behaviour is regarded as ok, while having a particular diet isn't?

Someone needs to explain that to me, because I really don't get what the difference is.

Smoking while pregnant is regarded as ok? That's news to me.

Shenshen wrote: »

Yet, if you let people see and smell a lovely ripe and juicy peach...

I'm not a fan of peaches and I don't know anyone who licks their lips when they see a muddy and dirty out of the ground potato or carrot.

People still mix herbs and whatnot into a vegetarian dish to bulk it up and add flavour.

Nutritionist calls pregnant vegan "deluded" & "irresponsible"

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