Religious child

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Does not compute, you believe in something because you have either no, insufficient, or negative* evidence of it's existence. You know something exists when you have sufficient evidence of its existence, like for example you know a chair exists because you are sitting on it.

*Negative evidence= evidence proving the non-existence of an item. For the Abrahamic god, this includes the bible, because the god as ennumerated in the bible is both physically (you cannot have a god able to interact with the universe yet not be part of that universe), and logically (omnipotence vs. omniscience) impossible. He is damned by his (supposedly) very own word.

This has gone off topic ... and in fairness to the OP (and my experience of previous excursions into this area) ... and the Mods in whom we trust ... I will leave your questions un-answered.

JC,

I'm very sorry but this clearly can't work on this thread and I'd rather not have to close this thread just yet. Would you mind refraining from post here any further? Everybody please stop replying to his posts and for goodness sakes stop the silly personal jibes at him.

Rosina1969 wrote: »

I think I need to examine my own beliefs, or lack of them. I find it hard to explain, only that I dont believe in any of it any more.
Sulla Felix I think that is my worry, I dont really want her mixing with priests and religious, and there's the whole 'guilt' thing which she is getting into already - like she said 'jesus died for US on the cross, how can you not believe in him and love him'. Before we had children we made a very definite decision that we didnt want them brought up in any kind of organised religion. But like the others say, if I try to say no, or wait until you're older, she goes mental at me, and is so angry with me. I'm wondering if the anger she will have against me if I say no to making communion, will outweigh any issues she will have if I let her.
One friend says to me that I should facilitate her, and let her explore her passion.
Her dad (ex-husband) says we should just say no, you're not doing it now, you can do it when you're older and you understand more about whether it's something you really want to do.
I tried to say to her the other day to wait until she is old enough to go to church herself, and it was a big decision, but she went absolutely mental. Then she started saying she had prayed and prayed that she would be allowed to do it... So if I do say no would it be a lesson that god doesnt answer her prayers?
I'm very confused about what to do.

I would also be confused and challenged. My boy is 21 and totally atheist. He did make his confirmation and communion, because his mother was catholic and his school was ~catholic. But I talked him on a regular basis about reasoning from a very early age. I talked to him about science and evidence and logic and what made common sense. Hence we talked about communion as being a social tradition and just something the others were doing so he might as well do. He was pretty happy with that. However you are coming from the opposite.

I suggest that you are heading for a minefield if you consider communion at this stage. It will be impossible to find a priest who will allow communion unless she is baptised. Same for allowing baptism unless the parents promise to raise her as a catholic. But I don't see it as too difficult to avoid ? because the time has passed in her school, and it can be explained away as being "too late for now" and the next opportunity will be after she is 18. Make it a simple statement, not a heavy one and move on to other topics ... same for confirmation, in that she did not make her first communion and therefore must wait.

I apologise if I am repeating myself, but I would try REALLY hard to avoid saying NO to too many things; not to draw lines and not to force her to make 'statements of belief' at you - once people, and kids, are forced into making a stand, they get attached to that stand even more than to the logic.

It's kind of like when we sell, in business, we make the pitch and try to avoid giving the customer any excuse to say 'no' or form a negative opinion. Because once people state their opinion, it become ten times harder to get them to publicly change it. I know that she has stated her opinion, but as a child that can be skirted around better imho.

Try to keep her thinking and not deciding, even though she will talk as if she has decided. Be the parent, you are a LOT smarter and more experienced than her. You can talk about the wider issues of evidence and common sense and aliens and stuff, without actually talking about religion. And you don't have to do it every day. Work it into other subjects, casually. Don't look for feedback .... just let it lay there, let it cook. Doing that over the coming years will, I am sure, make the difference. even if it doesn't change her in a year or two .... keep at it.

Keep focussed on the fact that she was unfairly seduced into this thinking by her grandparents and you have a responsibility and duty to offer her as much help to undo that as you can. The challenge is in finding the right strategy (while having a STRONG chat with the grandparents to tell them they will not be forgiven unless they stop now and do not continue with one more word on the subject).

Rosina1969 wrote: »

Thanks for all the interesting though-provoking posts. She goes to educate together, so its not from school. She went happily through 2nd class not bothered about children who were making their communion. I had a childminder who was a devout christian, and I think she talked a lot about god. But to be fair, my daughter is so interested in god and religion I imagine she would have started a lot of the conversations herself especially when she found out her childminder was a christian. My parents sometimes, the odd time, would bring her to mass with them. I didnt see a problem with that - just more 'education'. My current childminder is a devout catholic and goes to mass every day, so I would think there have been a lot of conversations with her also. I dont believe any of them have pushed it on my daughter though. It's just a passion she has developed herself. I probably havent been proactive enough in telling her what I believe. I find it harder as its more what I DONT believe than what I do, IUKWIM.
Would you really not go into the church with her, or not sit with her for mass. That would suit me as I could bring my son for a walk while she's in there - he hates to sit still!

Ahhh I somehow missed these points. I apologise. TWO deeply religious child minders ? Spending hours and hours with her ? I am thinking my points about your parents may be totally unfounded.

"I dont believe any of them have pushed it on my daughter though."

Please. Let's not be naive here. You don't have to PUSH things on a 10yo. And she was interested in religion ? of course she was. She is a normal girl interested in everything, especially when many of her friends are religious by indoctrination also. Regular persuasive consistent repetitive conversation about such an emotional topic can indoctrinate an impressionable child very very easily. Especially coming from a highly trusted person assigned to her by her parents as uber-trustworthy.

I would be worried about the current minder. She needs a VERY strong talking to, but how can you even know what she does when you are not there .... this is very worrying :eek:

That's a very strange topic for a ten year old to bring up to be honest; it's certainly not a topic that any 10 year old I ever knew had any interest in talking about.

I would hazard a guess that your parents have had undue religious influence on her and have possibly even told your daughter to put this question to you. Perhaps she wants her confirmation because all her friends are having theirs.

In any event, I feel she is far too easily manipulated at that age and would suggest that you ignore her wishes until she is mature enough to understand the decision she is making. Certainly, don't feel that you have failed your child- though I would ask some questions of your parents and what they talk to your daughter about.

jonerkinsella wrote: »

Your parents are not respecting your views. I would tell your parents to back off or you will not let them see your daughter again...it sounds like I'm been a little harsh ,but your parents are brainwashing your child with something you do not believe is true and your parents can not provide any evidence to your daughter about this subject .

If your parents will not let you bring up your daughter the way you want (within reason) then they do not respect you.

I agree ... but the emergence of the two religious child minders in a row makes me wonder if the grand parents are the real source of this.

All you have to do is look at how your parents influenced your early years. Do you think their strict religious views hindered you in anyway. If so you need to stop their influence right now as it is not right nor healthy for the child's mind.

I just wonder if the child in question was becoming obsessed with let's say scientology would there be A different tone? They are all the same to me so bad influence is bad influence really.