Religious child

J C · 09-11-2013 12:15AM

Piliger wrote: »

Very tragic. In my opinion this is typical of what happens when a void is left by parents failing to arm a child with the skills to assess what they are told. We as parents do a lot of things when we bring up a child. One of the most important things is to teach them from early on how to decide when things are real or imagined; the difference between made up things and real things, and how to judge what is true and not true. An early introduction to 'the scientific method' is how we can arm our children in this way. Belief based on evidence that we can observe and measure - as opposed to the nonsensical derision of Thomas in the Bible novels.
This lad you speak of was clearly completely unarmed and when he was faced with an aunt, someone he trusted, he was defenceless to resist her fantasies with logic or rational thinking.

Could well be true ... but he is now 18 years old ... and presumably has attended schools which have taught him the scientific method and critical thinking ... and he still fervently believes in God.
A mistake that is sometimes made by Atheist parents (and indeed Christian ones as well) is to blame themselves for their children not following their worldview.

Children are free-willed independent Human Beings ... who are capable of very sophisticated thoughts and very insightful opinions indeed.
They don't say 'out of the mouth of babes' for nothing.

Days 298 · 09-11-2013 12:39AM

Piliger wrote: »

Very tragic. In my opinion this is typical of what happens when a void is left by parents failing to arm a child with the skills to assess what they are told. We as parents do a lot of things when we bring up a child. One of the most important things is to teach them from early on how to decide when things are real or imagined; the difference between made up things and real things, and how to judge what is true and not true. An early introduction to 'the scientific method' is how we can arm our children in this way. Belief based on evidence that we can observe and measure - as opposed to the nonsensical derision of Thomas in the Bible novels.
This lad you speak of was clearly completely unarmed and when he was faced with an aunt, someone he trusted, he was defenceless to resist her fantasies with logic or rational thinking.

She got him and the parents didnt care. Now theyve a child who believes they are both going to hell.

I mentioned him to give advise to the OP to really keep a watch on the external source of this religious material and agenda. She is still her child. Shes only 10. I stilled believed in Santa at 9

. Whoever is teaching the OPs daughter religion has an agenda. It may appear innocent such as the lad I know but the results if you take a lassiez faire attitude can be horrid. At least find the source and keep a watch.

When a child is young religious parents teach there child about their faith and practices I dont see why you cant teach your daughter your lack of as well.

And no I will not recognise Gods calling. Im an atheist. I am looking at this rationally. No magical sky man called her. A real external source is cause of the OP's daughters new found religion. Did this magic being also teach her to pray before eating and to worry about her parents path to the afterlife? The idea that a 10 year old was called by God is rubbish. Someone who wishes your daughter to be a Catholic more like.

J C · 09-11-2013 12:54AM

Days 298 wrote: »

She got him and the parents didnt care. Now theyve a child who believes they are both going to hell.

I mentioned him to give advise to the OP to really keep a watch on the external source of this religious material and agenda. She is still her child. Shes only 10. I stilled believed in Santa at 9 . Whoever is teaching the OPs daughter religion has an agenda. It may appear innocent such as the lad I know but the results if you take a lassiez faire attitude can be horrid. At least find the source and keep a watch.

There are many people with different agendas influencing all children. I respect my children's right to have a different world-view to my own. I'd be disappointed if they don't agree with me ... but I will always love them whatever they decide. We should always be aware of what we control, what we don't control ... and have the wisdom to know and accept the difference.

Days 298 wrote: »

When a child is young religious parents teach there child about their faith and practices I dont see why you cant teach your daughter your lack of as well.

And no I will not recognise Gods calling. Im an atheist. I am looking at this rationally. No magical sky man called her. A real external source is cause of the OP's daughters new found religion. Did this magic being also teach her to pray before eating and to worry about her parents path to the afterlife? The idea that a 10 year old was called by God is rubbish. Someone who wishes your daughter to be a Catholic more like.

I'm a Christian and I am also looking at this rationally and objectively.
Like practically all children today, this child is exposed to both Theistic and Atheistic concepts and people ... and she is making her own mind up about which path she is going to follow.
We all need to recognise that some children can be very strong-willed about what they believe ... and we need to respect their right to have such beliefs ... and that applies to both Theist and Atheist parents alike.

Brian Shanahan · 09-11-2013 12:58AM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

Hi, my daughter is 10 and she's become obsessed with god and religioni. She wants to make her first communion and become a catholic. She's not baptised. I was brought up a catholic but long since lapsed and don't believe in anything now. She's been influenced by my parents strong catholic faith. What should I do, I'm very torn. On the one hand I should respect what she wants but on the other hand I really didn't want this for her. She prays every night, she reads prayer books and bible stories. She prays when she eats. She worries that I don't believe, or her dad. What would you do.

Start pointing her towards websites and books that show how incredibly bad the bible is as a moral and historical guide, how much of a tool god is compared to the devil (supposedly the evil one), about how a book supposedly written by the creator of the universe got the creation of the universe wrong in every respect (twice!). Once she realises the facts then she'll realise not converting is the right idea. You can counter propoganda with the facts.

And you never know she may end up opening your parents' eyes too.

Sarky · 09-11-2013 12:58AM

J C wrote: »

I'm a Christian and I am also looking at this rationally and objectively.

You have never done this in all your time on this website. Looking at your current posts, you certainly haven't started yet.

Brian Shanahan · 09-11-2013 01:02AM

feelgoodinc27 wrote: »

So replace one dogma for another.

What dogma is being used to replace the cultic one of christianity?

Atheism contains no dogma.

Brian Shanahan · 09-11-2013 01:08AM

Terrlock wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. I thought God was suppose to be supremely Just.

Read a bible, god is the biggest most spoilt and uncontrolled five year old brat one could ever possibly imagine.

J C · 09-11-2013 01:10AM

Sarky wrote: »

You have never done this in all your time on this website. Looking at your current posts, you certainly haven't started yet.

You are entitled to your opinion ... and I respectfully disagree with you.
Anyway, could we have less about me and more about the OP ... please.

Sarky wrote: »

Start pointing her towards websites and books that show how incredibly bad the bible is as a moral and historical guide, how much of a tool god is compared to the devil (supposedly the evil one), about how a book supposedly written by the creator of the universe got the creation of the universe wrong in every respect (twice!). Once she realises the facts then she'll realise not converting is the right idea. You can counter propoganda with the facts.

And you never know she may end up opening your parents' eyes too.

That's one way of looking at it.

This can cut both ways ... and the persistent strong faith of children can also cause Atheist parents to re-think their worldview and convert to Christianity

J C · 09-11-2013 01:14AM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

What dogma is being used to replace the cultic one of christianity?

Atheism contains no dogma.

Read a bible, god is the biggest most spoilt and uncontrolled five year old brat one could ever possibly imagine.

I think that this is for 'another' thread.

You are entitled to your opinion ... and I respectfully disagree with you.
Come to think of it, this also summarises what some children think about their parents worldview as well.

Brian Shanahan · 09-11-2013 01:18AM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

forcing athiesm on a child

Children are born atheist, they do not believe in any god, because they have no knowledge of said gods. Therefore saying that parents "force atheism" on children is factually incorrect.

Absoluvely · 09-11-2013 01:22AM

It seems like all the advice so far wants to treat this issue sensitively or specially because it's religion we're talking about.

Maybe you should just treat it the same way you would treat it if she believed in some crazy crap that wasn't a religion.

What would you say to her if she started praying to a banana and believing in ghosts? You'd probably tell her that of course it's not real, and explain how science overcomes it, but that there are still millions of people who will try to propagate their belief in ghosts.

Or maybe you should take Dades' advice. I liked that advice.

J C · 09-11-2013 01:29AM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Children are born atheist, they do not believe in any god, because they have no knowledge of said gods. Therefore saying that parents "force atheism" on children is factually incorrect.

In my experience, children have strong spiritual feelings from very young ages and they often have a personal relationship with God.
I have heard Materialists explain this away by saying that it is some kind of survival mechanism - but, whatever the reason ... it is a definite phenomenon.

J C · 09-11-2013 01:35AM

Absoluvely wrote: »

It seems like all the advice so far wants to treat this issue sensitively or specially because it's religion we're talking about.

Maybe you should just treat it the same way you would treat it if she believed in some crazy crap that wasn't a religion.

What would you say to her if she started praying to a banana and believing in ghosts? You'd probably tell her that of course it's not real, and explain how science overcomes it, but that there are still millions of people who will try to propagate their belief in ghosts.

I don't think the 'sensitivity' is about matters 'religious' per se.

I think the reason there is some 'tip-toeing' going on is because people realise that religious children are a real phenomenon ... and very often these children are quite strong-willed about their religion ... and I can well imagine that this could be quite disconcerting for an Atheist parent ... just like it could be disconcerting for a Christian parent faced with a child who is rejecting their worldview as well.
... and spiritual / metaphysical matters are strictly outside of the competence of materialistic science to deal with them ... so science will therefore not 'overcome' them.

pauldla · 09-11-2013 02:13AM

J C wrote: »

I don't think the 'sensitivity' is about matters 'religious' per se.

I think the reason there is some 'tip-toeing' going on is because people realise that religious children are a real phenomenon ... and very often these children are quite strong-willed about their religion ... and I can well imagine that this could be quite disconcerting for an Atheist parent ... just like it could be disconcerting for a Christian parent faced with a child who is rejecting their worldview as well.
... and spiritual / metaphysical matters are strictly outside of the competence of materialistic science to deal with them ... so science will therefore not 'overcome' them.

If there is any tip-toeing going on, it is because people realise that this is a 10 year old child. Sorry, JC, you don't get to claim this one for the LORD.

Piliger · 09-11-2013 02:46AM

Absoluvely wrote: »

It seems like all the advice so far wants to treat this issue sensitively or specially because it's religion we're talking about.

Maybe you should just treat it the same way you would treat it if she believed in some crazy crap that wasn't a religion.

What would you say to her if she started praying to a banana and believing in ghosts? You'd probably tell her that of course it's not real, and explain how science overcomes it, but that there are still millions of people who will try to propagate their belief in ghosts.

I disagree. There is no sensitivity for religions sake. There is sensitivity because children's minds are delicate and are forming. Coming at it with aggression can often just close their minds to you, cause resentment and worse. It could also cause a lot of personal problems by causing a huge rift between parents and grand parents.

Absoluvely · 09-11-2013 03:51AM

Piliger wrote: »

I disagree. There is no sensitivity for religions sake. There is sensitivity because children's minds are delicate and are forming. Coming at it with aggression can often just close their minds to you, cause resentment and worse. It could also cause a lot of personal problems by causing a huge rift between parents and grand parents.

I didn't mean to suggest dismissing a child's crazy belief with aggression.

If my hypothetical child believed in ghosts, I certainly wouldn't aggressively insist that they're not real.
I'd insist they're not real with a chuckle.

And if Absoluvely Jr. didn't have the science to realise this, I would provide the science. Without aggression.

I really don't think any of us would hesitate to teach a misled child how ghosts actually aren't real, especially since children have delicate, forming minds, as you say.

Would you really sit back and gently whisper the child towards science, if the child was already terrified, practising anti-ghost techniques for an hour every night, and wanted to join the local Ghost Resistance Club?

Mar Mar Marmalade · 09-11-2013 04:15AM

Sounds like a good kid, leave her be to her own decisions. Even if you disagree with her being religious, you can't just control someone's views in life. Since you're atheist, that seems to be a bit hypocritical.

Turpentine · 09-11-2013 04:19AM

When she realises there's no Santa Claus she'll grow out of it.

feargale · 09-11-2013 06:19AM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

Hi, my daughter is 10 and she's become obsessed with god and religioni. She wants to make her first communion and become a catholic. She's not baptised. I was brought up a catholic but long since lapsed and don't believe in anything now. She's been influenced by my parents strong catholic faith. What should I do, I'm very torn. On the one hand I should respect what she wants but on the other hand I really didn't want this for her. She prays every night, she reads prayer books and bible stories. She prays when she eats. She worries that I don't believe, or her dad. What would you do.

How did your parents react when you parted ways with religion?

Lucy8080 · 09-11-2013 08:47AM

Rosina1969 wrote: »

Hi, my daughter is 10 and she's become obsessed with god and religioni. She wants to make her first communion and become a catholic. She's not baptised. I was brought up a catholic but long since lapsed and don't believe in anything now. She's been influenced by my parents strong catholic faith. What should I do, I'm very torn. On the one hand I should respect what she wants but on the other hand I really didn't want this for her. She prays every night, she reads prayer books and bible stories. She prays when she eats. She worries that I don't believe, or her dad. What would you do.

I'm really not sure how to take the above post.

An un-baptised child growing up in a household of non -believers is praying every night ,reading prayer books and bible stories and praying when she eats?

And apparently it's all the fault of the grandparents!

And the icing on the cake is that some here want a ten year old to read the skeptics bible!

Comedy gold!

pauldla · 09-11-2013 08:53AM

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I'm really not sure how to take the above post.

An un-baptised child growing up in a household of non -believers is praying every night ,reading prayer books and bible stories and praying when she eats?

And apparently it's all the fault of the grandparents!

And the icing on the cake is that some here want a ten year old to read the skeptics bible!

Comedy gold!

No need for the skeptics bible. Use the real one. It might do no harm to sit down with the child and show her exactly what is in the Bible, from Genesis right on down to Revelations.

TwoShedsJackson · 09-11-2013 09:05AM

J C wrote: »

In my experience, children have strong spiritual feelings from very young ages and they often have a personal relationship with God.

Could this possibly be something to do with the fact they are naive children and so prone to believing in fairy tales, be it God, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?

Lucy8080 · 09-11-2013 10:10AM

pauldla wrote: »

No need for the skeptics bible. Use the real one. It might do no harm to sit down with the child and show her exactly what is in the Bible, from Genesis right on down to Revelations.

Yeah,do that so...did I mention the words "comedy gold"?

I think this ten year old girl is teaching us a lot about ourselves!

GarIT · 09-11-2013 10:47AM

Don't under any circumstances let her get baptised. It's something that can never be undone and has had a severe negative impact on my life. I have to live with the guilt of being a member of the organisation that has had more criminals in its hierarchy than any other ever. There is no way to leave, I've tried to get banned but it's near impossible.

Wait until she is 18. And you should make her read the bible cover to cover before she is allowed say she believes. You need to talk to her about saying she believes in something she doesn't understand. If it was me I would consider cutting all contact with my parents if they were the source of this unless they will admit to the child that they have been lying to her, that's me though and might not be right for you.

robindch · 09-11-2013 11:30AM

Lucy8080 wrote: »

[...] some here want a ten year old to read the skeptics bible! [...]

You might have missed the subtlety of the title - "The Skeptics Annotated Bible".

The SAB is a normal King James bible, but with all the bad bits highlighted and cross-referenced instead of ignored.

GarIT · 09-11-2013 11:43AM

I don't understand why people think a child that wants to be religious shouldn't read the bible. If a child wants to be Christian they need to be taught of the murder and daily sheep sacrifices that is expected of them in their service to god.

Days 298 · 09-11-2013 12:35PM

J C wrote: »

Ten year olds can become religious ... just like ten year olds can become irreligious.

Becoming an irreligious child is easy. You just don't practice a religion. Religion isn't a part of your identity.

Religion is taught to a child. A child doesn't just become religious through non practice or laziness. Someone has decided to teach the child Catholicism. It wasn't the OP and it certainly wasn't a supernatural calling.

J C wrote: »

In my experience, children have strong spiritual feelings from very young ages and they often have a personal relationship with God.
I have heard Materialists explain this away by saying that it is some kind of survival mechanism - but, whatever the reason ... it is a definite phenomenon.

Isn't it funny how a child can also have their nose stolen, believe in Santa and the Easter bunny. It's their lack of experience between telling what is real and not. So making them believe in fairy tales isn't a very difficult task. Isn't it also curious that a child spirituality seems to vary geographically. An Indian child will be Hindu, a Saudi will be Muslim, if this was phenomenon was real this God you speak of would have some questions to answer as to why different children are finding different versions of him based on their birthplace.

Pherekydes · 09-11-2013 12:36PM

I can understand all the advice to allow the child to make up their own mind, but, and it's a big but, would one intervene if a trusted adult, be it a grandparent, a minder or an adult at school, was messing about with the child's body in some way? Why let them fcuk with their mind?

I think you should ask the source to desist from attempting to brainwash your child, at the very least.

As for your child, herself, you could do worse than to read through the bible, as suggested earlier.

900 year-old men? Really?

Thomas D · 09-11-2013 12:36PM

She's too young. Tell her she is free to make her own religious choices at 16.

fatmammycat · 09-11-2013 12:48PM

Let her go to mass if she wants, for nothing puts children off religion quicker. Make sure you and your son do something fun while she attends: let her pray if she wants, if she asks you what you do believe have something concrete to offer. This too underpins reality v unreality. She's 10, 10 year olds believe all manner of guff, they grow out of it eventually.

Religious child

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