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Goodbye An Bord Pleanala!

13»

Comments

  • #62
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    deandean wrote: »
    At this stage it is only a power grab if DCC are trying to cut ABP out of the planning process.

    Like I said, they weren't in the process. Before this, the Dublin Docklands Development Authority gave permission for construction in the docklands area. Since the DDDA's demise, the DCC wants to retain these planning powers in the docklands.

    If it was ABP, nothing over 5 stories would ever get built there. Ever.
    end of the road wrote: »
    get the train, much quicker then driving, anyway in this day and age 2 hours 1 up and 1 back is nothing.
    end of the road wrote: »
    boo hoo, people live in "the back arse of nowhere" and commute for hours in many countries, they chose that lifestyle
    I'm sorry but you're not making any sense here. You're saying force them to live in the back arse of nowhere and make them get the train, then you're saying they chose that lifestyle.


  • #63
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Nimrod 7 wrote: »
    Like I said, they weren't in the process. Before this, the Dublin Docklands Development Authority gave permission for construction in the docklands area. Since the DDDA's demise, the DCC wants to retain these planning powers in the docklands.

    Serious question, do you trust that DCC Councillors have the competence to deal with the re-development of an area this size in a competent manner?
    If it was ABP, nothing over 5 stories would ever get built there. Ever.

    That's an awful exagerration. Many of the new buildings in the docklands are well above this height.


  • #64
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,839 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Believe it or not there's actually a shortage of large quality office space in the city centre right now.

    Indeed, and there is also a chronic shortage of rental accommodation in the city.


  • #65
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    bear1 wrote: »
    Goodbye An Bord Pleanala!
    Ok not for good but thank God they will be bypassed for this:

    Misleading title. It is likely that the SDZ will be appealed, in which case it certainly will go before ABP. There will then likely be an Oral Hearing. Then if/when ABP approve the SDZ, there will be no further appeals allowed. But ABP is certainly not removed from the picture, it's just that appeals are heard before the SDZ goes into effect, rather than after (which is the norm otherwise). It means that if anybody has a problem with the plan that they speak up now, and not when there's a 60m building about to begin construction.

    Bear in mind, the SDZ model works better for everybody: it gives certainty to developers, it allows extensive public consultation, everybody knows what's going to happen at the outset so there's no surprises. And people have alluded to the idea that the SDZ has taken planners out of the equation, but this is not the case. Remember that local authority planners have two jobs: 1) to decide on planning applications (aka Development Management), and 2) to prepare county/city development plans, local area plans, and of course SDZs (aka Forward Planning). Dublin City planners will have done a lot of work on preparing the SDZ, and certainly this new(ish) planning model in Ireland should deliver quality places compared to previous iterations such as the original IFSC.


  • #66
    Sh1tbag OToole
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭Sh1tbag OToole


    bear1 wrote: »
    It would make it more attractive though if there was another Luas line connecting that area to the rest of the city

    The luas should go all the way down to cork. Mostly through fields and stopping in the odd village. They can get to a decent speed on the straight and it wouldnt be any less comfortable than the regular train.

    It would look fierce odd though a luas going through some farmers field and then doing a section on a boreen


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  • #67
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,964 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    end of the road wrote: »
    in relation to the area they live yes they do

    Wrong.. catering to every group/area's individual preference would be chaos and a parish pump politician's wet dream. A unified plan in the interests of the city as a whole is what's needed.
    boo hoo, people live in "the back arse of nowhere" and commute for hours in many countries, they chose that lifestyle
    Wrong.. here it was generally all they could afford in the Celtic Tiger era insanity as property and rental prices rocketed. You're not suggesting people LIKE commuting for hours are you?
    affordable city centre housing? LOL, city centre housing will always be at a high premium
    Only because there's not enough of it. As supply increases, cost drops.
    its nothing to do with being able to build over a certain size, even if we built up the houses would still be pokey because the bigger the apartments, the more they cost, so people will choose pokey if it means they can afford it.
    Eh? :confused:
    and? cars and busses have to come from and go to somewhere, some people actually want to live on the outside of the city so public transport will have to be provided, unless you suggest herding everyone who lives on the outside of the city into the city whether they want to go or not, and then scrap public transport to the outside of the city? good luck with that.
    There are those who want to live in the suburbs for sure (generally people who are settled with a family/kids). Most younger or single/childless people would prefer to live in town I'd wager.
    when it comes to the parts of the city they don't live in, no they don't, i've no right to force something on the residents of another part of the city who don't want it the same as they don't get a say in my area
    See my first point.


  • #68
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,971 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »
    The luas should go all the way down to cork. Mostly through fields and stopping in the odd village. They can get to a decent speed on the straight and it wouldnt be any less comfortable than the regular train.

    It would look fierce odd though a luas going through some farmers field and then doing a section on a boreen

    Eh?? What are you on about?
    Is it a statement that no more LUAS lines should be built?


  • #69
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I get you, but look at Park West then. That got built up and is as empty as the wasteland before it.

    Hmmm. The Docklands are nowhere near as isolated from the city centre though.


  • #70
    Sh1tbag OToole
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭Sh1tbag OToole


    bear1 wrote: »
    Eh?? What are you on about?
    Is it a statement that no more LUAS lines should be built?

    No I'm saying they could replace normal trains by extending the luas


  • #71
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    Blisterman wrote: »
    Personally I think they should bring in minimum space standards as part of the planning process.

    I agree, apartment living would be much more popular in Ireland if they were actually a decent size with ample storage. Lack of storage is a key reason for people not sticking around apartment long-term in this country, IMO.


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  • #72
    losthorizon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    Teyla Emmagan wrote: »
    This is bananas. Why have structures and safeguards in place when they are then bypassed? Look at the hideous planning decisions that have already been made in this country - whatever gombeen thought this was a good idea needs their head kicked in.

    At last someone with a bit of sense. A city should be developed coherently and in tune with what is already there. You just do not drop down skyscrapers for the sake of it. In Ireland we are great at destroying our natural and built heritage and trying to build cheap crap. Near where I live in Waterford Ring has been totally destroyed by ribbon development. The late Liam Clancy tried to campaign against this but failed. Dubliners managed to destroy a lot of Georgian Dublin are they going to change the fabric of their city again and try and make it look like America or the Far East. Many of the most beautiful cities and towns in Europe have strict building provisions and stick to them.


  • #73
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,958 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    bear1 wrote: »
    Ok not for good but thank God they will be bypassed for this:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/fast-track-plan-for-dublin-docklands-approved-1.1587697

    I think this is what Dublin needs, a nice few skyscrapers and with some decent height.
    Would make the city look so much more modern.
    The U2 Tower would probably have been nice but I doubt that is going anywhere.
    So it got me thinking, what other projects would have been completed if ABP were taken out of the equation altogether?
    I seem to remember plans in the 00's of a huge theme park in Finglas I believe which was shelved by ABP.. could be wrong though

    I don't know anything about the quality of ABP decisions, but I don't like the idea of councillors making the decisions. They're not qualified.


  • #74
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    LionelNashe wrote: »
    I don't know anything about the quality of ABP decisions, but I don't like the idea of councillors making the decisions. They're not qualified.

    Councillors have always had the deciding vote. The planners only make recommendations, then the Councillors have to vote in a development plan. It's a central tenet of the separation of reserved and executive functions.


  • #75
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    Believe it or not there's actually a shortage of large quality office space in the city centre right now.

    Utter nonsense. Here are 19 currently vacant office properties in excess of 100,000 sq feet, including this one that has NEVER been let since it was built in 2005/6

    http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=118648
    187,000 sq feet of new office space vacant for years and years.
    An Bord Pleanana are just another useless quango that need shutting down and starting again.

    Useless? Which of their decisions were wrong in your view? The fact that Bernard McNamara is now out of bankrupcy means that ABP are not the quango I would be getting angry at.
    hmmm wrote: »
    True, the IDA have already come out and said this. There isn't a single large unoccupied office space in Dublin city centre, with the exception of the old Eircom building.

    See above. The IDA have an agenda and budget to uphold. That building on Church Street linked to above has never been rented. The IDA just want to build more 'business parks' for the taxpayer to bail out.
    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Indeed, and there is also a chronic shortage of rental accommodation in the city.

    Huh? 1,562 properties currently advertised as vacant on Daft.ie.


  • #76
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    I totally agree with this,

    The idea that DCC will just rubber stamp any auld shlte being built in the docklands without any body to review it fills me with dread.

    There is enough space in that area to build decent size, liveable apartments. I've no objection to some high rise buildings. Given what they have allowed happen in the recent past, I can't help but think that DCC will give in to developers without stipulating minimum floor space requirements or storage space.

    Have you read the SDZ?
    There are minimum residential sizes to adhere to.

    This was out for public consultation earlier in the year, people really should put their thoughts into these instead of complaining after the fact.


  • #77
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,192 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    MadsL wrote: »
    Here are 19 currently vacant office properties in excess of 100,000 sq feet
    First time I've ever heard of Leopardstown and Clontarf being regarded as "city centre".


  • #78
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    hmmm wrote: »
    First time I've ever heard of Leopardstown and Clontarf being regarded as "city centre".

    First time I have seen Dublin 7 being excluded from the definition of City Centre. The IDA appear to be talking out of their collective arses.


  • #79
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    MadsL wrote: »
    First time I have seen Dublin 7 being excluded from the definition of City Centre. The IDA appear to be talking out of their collective arses.

    The vast majority of new office space being sought at the moment is in Dublin 1 and 2. There is a shortage there whether you want to believe it or not.

    I don't work for the IDA (believe they are another quango) but the facts speak for themselves, ask any large company looking for space and they'll tell you the same thing.


  • #80
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    The vast majority of new office space being sought at the moment is in Dublin 1 and 2. There is a shortage there whether you want to believe it or not.

    I don't work for the IDA (believe they are another quango) but the facts speak for themselves, ask any large company looking for space and they'll tell you the same thing.

    So...these currently vacant 100k sq feet plus offices are vacant because...?

    http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=45166
    120,610 sq. feet

    http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=92941
    180,000 sq. feet

    http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=86492
    182,980 sq. feet

    http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?id=112242
    110,384 sq. feet

    Not to mention these 50k sq ft-100k sq ft properties in Dublin 2
    http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?s%5Bcc_id%5D=ct1&s%5Ba_id%5D=299&s%5Bsub_pt_id%5D=&s%5Bmin_size%5D=50000&s%5Bmax_size%5D=100000&s%5Bmna%5D=&s%5Bmxa%5D=&s%5Bpt_id%5D=1&search=1&s%5Ba_id_transport%5D=0&s%5Bsearch_type%5D=commercial&s%5Brefreshmap%5D=1

    and these in Dublin 1
    http://www.daft.ie/searchcommercial.daft?s%5Bcc_id%5D=ct1&s%5Ba_id%5D=pc1&s%5Bsub_pt_id%5D=&s%5Bmin_size%5D=50000&s%5Bmax_size%5D=100000&s%5Bmna%5D=&s%5Bmxa%5D=&s%5Bpt_id%5D=1&search=1&s%5Ba_id_transport%5D=0&s%5Bsearch_type%5D=commercial&s%5Brefreshmap%5D=1


  • #81
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Hardly a surplus given the amount of companies wanting to move/upgrade at the moment.

    My point is, there's nothing wrong with building new commercial space in the city centre AS LONG as they are funded properly (ie the banks have and abide by lending criteria, not throwing momey around like confetti).

    There are Qs of foreign investors who want to invest in commercial property here.


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  • #82
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    The IDA are saying they have to have 400,000 sq. footplates in order to attract investment of four companies which they won't name.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/ida-shortage-of-commercial-property-could-harm-future-investment-in-dublin-29427934.html

    To say that Ireland desperately need something over half the footprint of Blanchardstown shopping centre is bold in the extreme. That is an office footprint twice the size of the current largest vacant property in Dublin 2.

    Google has 210,000 square feet of office space for about 2,000 staff.

    If a 4,000 staff company is moving to Dublin, that would be some company. The size of Apple, Intel or Irish Rail. Microsoft only have 1,200 employees.


  • #83
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    There are Qs of foreign investors who want to invest in commercial property here.

    Invest or exploit lack of planning and regulation?


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