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HB2002 · 08-11-2013 10:11AM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Not involved in formal golf too long - but I'm beginning to be inquisitive as to what the GUI actually do ?
This is my ignorance , but the Handicap system seems to be the biggest bone of contention on here - that is even amongst golfers who have been involved in formal golf in Ireland for a long time.

I think everyone who is a member in a club will be aware of the bandits in their club, they're everywhere. It isn't every distance member or every 23 handicapper that score 40+ points but they're there and they know who they are and everyone of them who pulls up or goes out of their way to get the .1 back is cheating and there is nothing anyone can do about that because it's the individual playing badly on purpose.
So what can be done?
Well there are certain types of competitions out side of your club that seem to attract them, obviously the Golf digest with it's fantastic prizes is one but mostly it's team competitions like the Atlantic Coast Challenge or golf classics, and why?
Well they wont get cut in a team competition. There are gangs of golfers who travel the length and breadth of the country playing classics and team comps and hoovering up the prizes.
The GUI need to do something to combat it and they're not.
They have I think brought in a rule this year for singles where if you score particularly high in the same month that there is an additional cut ( not 100% sure about this )
but they do nothing to target the cheating in team competitions.
I'm not sure what can be done maybe an automatic cut for team wins?
but something needs to be done to bring back some level of fairness.
I do think that Handicap Secretary's have a huge part to play in this too.

Redzah · 08-11-2013 10:19AM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Ok Redzah - you seem to know a good bit about this.

But

People could cheat if they are that way inclined - it is like tax or road rules or just cheating - they will find a way. They would be like this in other parts of life.

On point of elite Irish players coming through. That is not going too well - here is me hanging onto Padraig outside top 50 in race to Dubai.

So if GUI are looking after handicap system (not working)
Elite Players (not on euro tour)

I'm going to have to look into what they are doing well.

Any other company in the country would be failing if it did not meet two of it's main targets.

Fixde, the GUI's role in bringing through the irish elite players relates to bringing through top amatuers and giving them the best possible chance of succeeding as a pro. MY understanding is that when they are a pro, the GUI's role has ceased.

In this regard, the GUI have done extraordinarily well with the level of pro golfers on the tours and the success they have had for such a small nation and has exceeded its target in this regard.

You should also have a look at the systems in other countrys and you will soon realise that interclub competitions the wide range of singles competions run by the governing authorities are hard to come by and not run in the same way. Therefore, the have met and exceed another of their key criteria which is inclusiveness.

Their biggest struggle at the moment imo is the scumbags that are plaguing the game through their false handicaps, I hope they start to deal with this better.

Redzah · 08-11-2013 10:29AM

gnox wrote: »

millerj - In my personal experience (club captain 4 years ago of a munster club - and have personally contacted their H/C secretary twice reporting classic winners from that club), Slievenamon rarely if ever cut members based on team/non-qualifying event scores.
There are a good number of Slievenamon members that tour the Classic circuit, playing off 18+ that win >5 big events a year and always maintain their handicap.
I have a specific example of 4 of their members that won a large prize in our club classic (by 9 shots!!) - we passed their details onto Slievenamon, and no cut was ever applied. The same 4 won another major event soon after and won a holiday to a major golf venue in the US. The next year they appeared on the timesheet for our classic all 1 shot higher!
No-one can tell me that a club with any self respect would allow this kind of (reported) activity to continue.

Agree that a the home club have some blame here but so does your club. Your club decided that the €200 income from these 4 scumbags was worth it and let them play in the club classic off their scumbag handicaps.

Management refuse the right of admissions, the lads ring up or turn up and the clubs says sorry lads not today, or just F off.

FixdePitchmark · 08-11-2013 10:34AM

Redzah wrote: »

Agree that a the home club have some blame here but so does your club. Your club decided that the €200 income from these 4 scumbags was worth it and let them play in the club classic off their scumbag handicaps.

Management refuse the right of admissions, the lads ring up or turn up and the clubs says sorry lads not today, or just F off.

I think your use of the word scumbag is a bit lose Redzah.

Scumbag means a certain thing in Dublin - it is not associated with middle class lads in charity classics

Then other lads in a Tax Exile's Charity Event.

charlieIRL · 08-11-2013 10:43AM

Before things get nasty, I think we'll head back onto the original topic now lads

Tin_Cup · 08-11-2013 11:06AM

I have to say I still don't see why these events cant be run as Opens by the host clubs to ensure that scores are returned correctly and cuts made where required. The systems are there they may aswell be used.

Redzah · 08-11-2013 11:13AM

Tin_Cup wrote: »

I have to say I still don't see why these events cant be run as Opens by the host clubs to ensure that scores are returned correctly and cuts made where required. The systems are there they may aswell be used.

I'd say its probably to do with the excessive prizes meaning the GUI can't get involved in sanctioning the prize value, questions over breach of amatuer status etc.

DuckHook · 08-11-2013 11:13AM

Redzah wrote: »

Agree that a the home club have some blame here but so does your club. Your club decided that the €200 income from these 4 scumbags was worth it and let them play in the club classic off their scumbag handicaps.

Management refuse the right of admissions, the lads ring up or turn up and the clubs says sorry lads not today, or just F off.

You need to be consistent though this could be construed as bullying by the club they are trying to play at, its on their own club to manage the handicaps.

gnox · 08-11-2013 11:20AM

Redzah wrote: »

Agree that a the home club have some blame here but so does your club. Your club decided that the €200 income from these 4 scumbags was worth it and let them play in the club classic off their scumbag handicaps.

Management refuse the right of admissions, the lads ring up or turn up and the clubs says sorry lads not today, or just F off.

No we didn't let them play off their handicaps- we took a different approach - we told all Slievenamon members that booked that we were enforcing a 6 h/c for them all because we did not trust their club's handicapping. under GUI rules a club can set their own rules for a classic.
Surprise, surprise the 4 in question pulled out..... (and some other teams from Slievenamon)

It probably cost our club the guts of €1000 in lost revenue but it sorted out that issue.

millerj · 08-11-2013 05:22PM

Redzah wrote: »

I'd say its probably to do with the excessive prizes meaning the GUI can't get involved in sanctioning the prize value, questions over breach of amatuer status etc.

ironically with the Golf Digest events it is not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd prizes that are excessive. 1st is generally a driver, 2nd a three wood and 3rd a putter. The bigger prizes are closest to the pin wins possibly a weekend away or a set of irons or the end of tournament raffle with prizes such as a stand bag etc.

millerj · 08-11-2013 05:43PM

gnox wrote: »

No we didn't let them play off their handicaps- we took a different approach - we told all Slievenamon members that booked that we were enforcing a 6 h/c for them all because we did not trust their club's handicapping. under GUI rules a club can set their own rules for a classic.
Surprise, surprise the 4 in question pulled out..... (and some other teams from Slievenamon)

It probably cost our club the guts of €1000 in lost revenue but it sorted out that issue.

Congratulations on your approach. You obviously sorted out the wheat from the chaff here. As a member of Slievenamon I too would not have played for the above reason (although I would consider myself a very honest golfer albeit not a wealthy one, alas my home club). With the advent of many new distant memberships available for 2014 I hope all of these other clubs such as Clonmel, Cahir Park, Raffeen Creek, Scarke etc will manage their handicaps to an acceptable level for a fee of €150 or less or alternatively you will have a very busy time on competition day....ha ha. Feel like a minority ethnic group now being a member of Slievenamon, perhaps I should contact the Irish Human Rights Commission..ha ha. Slievenamon Abú.

Freemount09 · 08-11-2013 09:41PM

Slievnamon doesn't have the monopoly on bandits. Plenty of bandits is most if not all clubs up and down the country.

FixdePitchmark · 09-11-2013 12:59AM

millerj wrote: »

Congratulations on your approach. You obviously sorted out the wheat from the chaff here. As a member of Slievenamon I too would not have played for the above reason (although I would consider myself a very honest golfer albeit not a wealthy one, alas my home club). With the advent of many new distant memberships available for 2014 I hope all of these other clubs such as Clonmel, Cahir Park, Raffeen Creek, Scarke etc will manage their handicaps to an acceptable level for a fee of €150 or less or alternatively you will have a very busy time on competition day....ha ha. Feel like a minority ethnic group now being a member of Slievenamon, perhaps I should contact the Irish Human Rights Commission..ha ha. Slievenamon Abú.

I don't think there is any relationship between wealth and honesty in sport. In anything in a way.

The biggest crooks in Ireland over the last 20 years - were the wealthiest of them all.

Tin_Cup · 09-11-2013 10:54AM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I don't think there is any relationship between wealth and honesty in sport. In anything in a way.

The biggest crooks in Ireland over the last 20 years - were the wealthiest of them all.

Very true. Check out some of the handicaps of the guys playing in the Alfred Dunhill for examples

bobster453 · 21-05-2014 11:22PM

gnox wrote: »

millerj - In my personal experience (club captain 4 years ago of a munster club - and have personally contacted their H/C secretary twice reporting classic winners from that club), Slievenamon rarely if ever cut members based on team/non-qualifying event scores.
There are a good number of Slievenamon members that tour the Classic circuit, playing off 18+ that win >5 big events a year and always maintain their handicap.
I have a specific example of 4 of their members that won a large prize in our club classic (by 9 shots!!) - we passed their details onto Slievenamon, and no cut was ever applied. The same 4 won another major event soon after and won a holiday to a major golf venue in the US. The next year they appeared on the timesheet for our classic all 1 shot higher!
No-one can tell me that a club with any self respect would allow this kind of (reported) activity to continue.

Hi Millerj
What club was that?
Just curious

plumber77 · 09-10-2016 03:31PM

2 boys that only halved their match will have to have their handicaps reviewed in Slievenamon

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