Golf Digest Event Carton House

charlieIRL

ForeRight wrote: »

This is outrageous.

Why would anyone bother entering this at all with the type of crap I've read the last couple of pages here going on.

15 handicapper 3 years ago now playing with 2 shots on 5 holes!!!!
All after he just let his GUI lapse!!!!

That's scandalous.

Lets not take from the Golf Digest Events - the were presented with a valid GUI handicap and how were they to know the history of the player. The issue here should be with the players club who issued the new handicap and not the events.
From what I know of the events, they are well run and like many others, I do hope to enter a few of them next year.

Redzah

ForeRight wrote: »

This is outrageous.

Why would anyone bother entering this at all with the type of crap I've read the last couple of pages here going on.

15 handicapper 3 years ago now playing with 2 shots on 5 holes!!!!
All after he just let his GUI lapse!!!!

That's scandalous.

This whole event and clear cheating of the system (and poor due dillegence from his new club) would have been a lot less likely to happen if the maximum handicap was limited at 18!!!! Despite what others think it would make for a fairer system and is another example of the easily exploitable system I have referred in a different thread.

imo its sour grapes that they tried to call a silly rules infringement on him for this putter before ball way of lining it up (not even sure of the rule but i've seen plenty do it before and didnt think twice). This is bullying in my opinion.

He has conned the system with his handicap and his club are also to blame but to look for a stupid rules infringement to the point that the player walks off the course is wrong and bullying imo and is unrelated to the above point on his handicap.

HB2002

Redzah wrote: »

imo its sour grapes that they tried to call a silly rules infringement on him for this putter before ball way of lining it up (not even sure of the rule but i've seen plenty do it before and didnt think twice). This is bullying in my opinion.

Agree with you that the rule is a bit odd, I think it's to do with touching the line of your putt which isn't allowed but it's a ridiculous rule because it doesn't make any difference.

I don't think it's bullying it's just applying the rules of which there are many that are a bit mad!

Without doubt his club are to blame along with himself for cheating and also the GUI for doing nothing constructive to tackle this kind of abuse.

I think the problem with a lot of clubs is that they don't care about their reputation because they rely on the subs of the many members that never darken the door of their course but get their handicap and pay their subs.

I understand it's not possible for everyone to pay the kind of money required to join the course you maybe would like to join and that the only option for some people is to join a club like ( I'll just pluck one out of the air that I think might fall into that category... Wonder how many people will have guessed the club before I type it... )Slieve Na Mon.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with distance membership but the club has a responsibilty to uphold the integrity of the game with proper handicap management, and I feel that where it's not being applied then the GUI should take action against that club.

Freemount09

charlieIRL wrote: »

Lets not take from the Golf Digest Events - the were presented with a valid GUI handicap and how were they to know the history of the player. The issue here should be with the players club who issued the new handicap and not the events.
From what I know of the events, they are well run and like many others, I do hope to enter a few of them next year.

Amature golf, is riddled with bandits, and many posts and threads around here to highlight peoples gripe with them.

There are bandits up and down the country in most clubs, should people boycot their weekly comp cause they feel they are not teeing it up on a level playing field ?

I went to a couple of these events and had a great day each time. I will probably go to a couple next year too.

I tee it up at these events and every time I play golf to (in this order)
A) Enjoy the round
Try to get my handicap down
C) Maybe get a prize

Unfortunately, there are some whose priorities are different, the clubs and GUI are unfortunately not addressing this for the greater good of the game.

I'm not saying that the winner of the Golf Digest Event is a bandit as I don't know him or all the facts.

Does anyone know what event he won during the year to win his place and what was he playing off then ?

Redzah

HB2002 wrote: »

Agree with you that the rule is a bit odd, I think it's to do with touching the line of your putt which isn't allowed but it's a ridiculous rule because it doesn't make any difference.

I don't think it's bullying it's just applying the rules of which there are many that are a bit mad!

Without doubt his club are to blame along with himself for cheating and also the GUI for doing nothing constructive to tackle this kind of abuse.

I think the problem with a lot of clubs is that they don't care about their reputation because they rely on the subs of the many members that never darken the door of their course but get their handicap and pay their subs.

I understand it's not possible for everyone to pay the kind of money required to join the course you maybe would like to join and that the only option for some people is to join a club like ( I'll just pluck one out of the air that I think might fall into that category... Wonder how many people will have guessed the club before I type it... )Slieve Na Mon.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with distance membership but the club has a responsibilty to uphold the integrity of the game with proper handicap management, and I feel that where it's not being applied then the GUI should take action against that club.

Yeah, I would've guessed its to do with linking it with the touching line of putt rule but i've seen plenty do it so im not sure if its illegal. Anyway, my point is that would this rules breach have been called if the individual was not winning the comp???? I think the answer is no and that is why my opinion is that its sour grapes and bullying by his playing competitors, the fact that he is a complete bandit and handicap cheat is a separate issue in my opinion.

paulos53

Rule 16-1a

a. Touching Line of Putt
The line of putt must not be touched except:

(ii) the player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;

Redzah

paulos53 wrote: »

Rule 16-1a

a. Touching Line of Putt
The line of putt must not be touched except:

(ii) the player may place the club in front of the ball when addressing it, provided he does not press anything down;

Cheers, hence my bullying comment whereby the playing partners we looking for a way to catch this guy with a rules infringement. In the end they came up with this pathetic attempt where the fella did nothing wrong (in terms of on course rules). Blatent sour grapes and bullying, the problem rests with the exploitation of the system and not an on course rules infringement and hence i think it was wrong the way the approached him.

Should be sorted out once and for all by having GUI handicaps for all comps. For these ones with prestigious prizes they could just limit the handicap to 18 and apply a system whereby the everyone plays off the lower of their current handicap, their lowest last years handicap or their average handicap for the last 3 years.

PARlance

Redzah wrote: »

This whole event and clear cheating of the system (and poor due dillegence from his new club) would have been a lot less likely to happen if the maximum handicap was limited at 18!!!! Despite what others think it would make for a fairer system and is another example of the easily exploitable system I have referred in a different thread.

Without going there again too much... I don't think the system needs to be changed but I do think events like these should consider capping the HC at 18.
It's not fair on genuine golfers over the limit, but if I was organizing the event I'd be keen to protect the image of it.
It seems that anyone over 18 winning at such an event is automatically a bandit. (if the facts are right about this case, it does sound ridiculous)
They seem to have had sell outs for all their events to date, without knowing the break down of players, they could probably limit the HC and still get the numbers required.

I don't think this is right to do, but at the same time, I don't know why they are leaving the event open to get a bad reputation.

alxmorgan

Redzah wrote: »

Cheers, hence my bullying comment whereby the playing partners we looking for a way to catch this guy with a rules infringement. In the end they came up with this pathetic attempt where the fella did nothing wrong (in terms of on course rules). Blatent sour grapes and bullying, the problem rests with the exploitation of the system and not an on course rules infringement and hence i think it was wrong the way the approached him.

Should be sorted out once and for all by having GUI handicaps for all comps. For these ones with prestigious prizes they could just limit the handicap to 18 and apply a system whereby the everyone plays off the lower of their current handicap, their lowest last years handicap or their average handicap for the last 3 years.

Don't see how this solves the issue.
Guy off 18...off 10 three years ago wins prize. Same deal.

slingerz

how a guy goes up 8 shots after losing their handicap is beyond me tho

Freemount09

Redzah wrote: »

Anyway, my point is that would this rules breach have been called if the individual was not winning the comp???? I think the answer is no and that is why my opinion is that its sour grapes and bullying by his playing competitors, the fact that he is a complete bandit and handicap cheat is a separate issue in my opinion.

I would say that the people marking his card could see him burning up the course, and it hurting them inside to see his handicap at 23 and they having to fill up his card with birdies and pars instead of bogies and doubles !?

I was playing before, one of our group was a 20+ hc and he was splitting the fairway, regularly getting up and down, and parring holes with ease. When he drained in a 30 footer for a birdie on the back 9, the other 2 people didn't even say 'good putt' they were so convinced he was a bandit.

Hard to balance it for the higher handicapers, if they do score 40+ everyone assumes they're a bandit. But then again scoring over 80 points on 2 championship rounds over 2 days does seem abit too consistent ?

slave1

Freemount09 wrote: »

...
Does anyone know what event he won during the year to win his place and what was he playing off then ?

That would be interesting...

millerj

HB2002 wrote: »

Agree with you that the rule is a bit odd, I think it's to do with touching the line of your putt which isn't allowed but it's a ridiculous rule because it doesn't make any difference.

I don't think it's bullying it's just applying the rules of which there are many that are a bit mad!

Without doubt his club are to blame along with himself for cheating and also the GUI for doing nothing constructive to tackle this kind of abuse.

I think the problem with a lot of clubs is that they don't care about their reputation because they rely on the subs of the many members that never darken the door of their course but get their handicap and pay their subs.

I understand it's not possible for everyone to pay the kind of money required to join the course you maybe would like to join and that the only option for some people is to join a club like ( I'll just pluck one out of the air that I think might fall into that category... Wonder how many people will have guessed the club before I type it... )Slieve Na Mon.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with distance membership but the club has a responsibilty to uphold the integrity of the game with proper handicap management, and I feel that where it's not being applied then the GUI should take action against that club.

As a distance member of Slievenamon for the last two years I enjoyed your 'pluck'. My decision was a purely financial one and in my four years of golf I have failed to return one card (admittedly one too many). Started this year at 9.6, out to 11.8 and currently 10.8, plenty of ups and downs. I would also argue that if anyone from any club wants to manipulate or massage their handicaps it is in their own hands to do so regardless of where they play...if that is their nature.

slave1

millerj wrote: »

.. I would also argue that if anyone from any club wants to manipulate or massage their handicaps it is in their own hands to do so regardless of where they play...if that is their nature.

100% right there bud!

I'm a distance member this year, last year when I was a local member I got a 0.4 cut, this year I played everywhere and anywhere, a better player for it and got a 2.4 cut, not all distance members are bandits...

millerj

Played a couple of these events both last year and this and must admit I thoroughly enjoyed them. Scoring generally was not huge (same as a club weekend competition in my opinion) and although the weather was particularly bad in Killarney I think 35pts won on the day. Think one of our group shot 34pts so was close to qualifying for the final. Also eight of us had travelled and managed to scoop six raffle prizes - amazing as none of us knew the organisers as seemed to be suggested previously as being the protocol for winning a raffle prize. An absolute fabulous day to be had with good grub and good company. Congratulations to the winner whoever they are and best of luck with their super prize. I am looking forward to playing one or two of these events again next year.

Redzah

alxmorgan wrote: »

Don't see how this solves the issue.
Guy off 18...off 10 three years ago wins prize. Same deal.

Not quite.

Firstly it would be very difficult for a guy off 10 to get to 18 over 3 years as you can only get 2 shots back a year, it would involve him having to have started a year off 12 and getting cut to 10 and then getting 40 .1's back in the same year (thats a lot of golf). Then an addition 20 0.1's for the next 2 years (more doable than whats required in year one).

Then as I have suggested they should take the lower of;

a. His current handicap (18)
b. His lowest handicap in the previous year (16 or potentiallty lower in this case)
c. His average of the proceeding 3 years (prob around 13/14 in this case)

So based on the above criteria his handicap would be 13/14. Once organising committees start taking an approach of full and final decisions on handicaps by organising committee then systems like the example above will work better. The above is just an example and i'm sure there's holes in it but it has less holes and is more equitable than the current system.

Also capping this at 18 as I have previously suggested.

These events are oversuscribed and by the criteria above they are more likely to attract the individuals they want and also make the events fairer, i don't expect the above to result in all available places not filling.

PARlance

You're only covering one type of bandit with that, the "recent convert".
It also assumes guilt on anyone that has increased in HC

Hard cases make bad law

Redzah

PARlance wrote: »

You're only covering one type of bandit with that, the "recent convert".
It also assumes guilt on anyone that has increased in HC

Hard cases make bad law

Not really, the seasoned bandit category will often produce their true ability a couple of times each year for a big comp like the captains prize etc and will normally get cut accordingly before frantically finishing the year with a load of .1's, criteria b and possibly c in my suggestion would somewhat hamper the seasoned bandit.

PARlance

Redzah wrote: »

Not really, the seasoned bandit category will often produce their true ability a couple of times each year for a big comp like the captains prize etc and will normally get cut accordingly before frantically finishing the year with a load of .1's, criteria b and possibly c in my suggestion would somewhat hamper the seasoned bandit.

I would expect a "seasoned bandit" to finish the year as they started. Ie on a very similar HC.

Assuming they are "seasoned" assumes they will expect and deliver a big win at least once a year.
This would result in at least a shot or two reduction.
And yes they may grab a few 0.1s after the win, but I can't see them getting 40 a year.

A "seasoned bandit" would have to have 120 or so 0.1s in 3 years if they were to go from 10 to 18 as per your example.

scrubber72

slave1 wrote: »

That would be interesting...

I believe it was powerscourt. 41points off 24

slave1

scrubber72 wrote: »

I believe it was powerscourt. 43/44points off 23

Yikes!

Just thinking, if that was me I'd be pressing my HCap Secretary to apply a reduction (assuming it was qualifying competition), that would be (assuming 43points) 7 X 0.4/0.3 = 2.X of a cut, pretty hard to get back to 23 over two and a half months!
Does smell a bit...

Tin_Cup

A handicap could shoot from 10 to 18 by joining a new club, claiming not to have had a handicap for the last few years than producing 3 cards to the handicap sec. Unfortanitly I have seen this occur at one or two clubs I have worked at previously.

Out of curiosity are the results returned to home clubs by Golf Digest or does the host club setup an open comp for the day?

Redzah

PARlance wrote: »

I would expect a "seasoned bandit" to finish the year as they started. Ie on a very similar HC.

Assuming they are "seasoned" assumes they will expect and deliver a big win at least once a year.
This would result in at least a shot or two reduction.
And yes they may grab a few 0.1s after the win, but I can't see them getting 40 a year.

A "seasoned bandit" would have to have 120 or so 0.1s in 3 years if they were to go from 10 to 18 as per your example.

I'm not really sure we are on the same wavelength and i am unsure of your point.

As i have stated in Criteria B of my previous post it would be the lowest handicap in the prior year. This would limit the 'seasoned bandit' who's handicap is already in bandit territory with his handicap and doesnt need to accumulate the required shots over the next 3 years (i.e. 2 per year). This particular bandit will have one or 2 big scores in big comps and be sliced. If criteria B that i have suggested is introduced then this bandit will have to use his lowest handicap in the prior year (i.e. after his big cut).

This system would also punish thoses new bandits, the ones who have just turned to the dark side. It will punish these new bandits as outlined in my previous post (essentially the lower of criteria B and C).

So basically all bandits get limited somewhat in my suggestion. I say limited because these bandits are like chameleons and will evolve to a different way of cheating the system but at least my suggestion would go some way to limiting these whilst not unjustly punishing the majority of the real and fair golfing population

Redzah

Tin_Cup wrote: »

A handicap could shoot from 10 to 18 by joining a new club, claiming not to have had a handicap for the last few years than producing 3 cards to the handicap sec. Unfortanitly I have seen this occur at one or two clubs I have worked at previously.

Out of curiosity are the results returned to home clubs by Golf Digest or does the host club setup an open comp for the day?

Yes but to do so these individuals would have to lie which is different to their current approach of taking advantage of the system. They will lie as most (if not all) questions on a club joining form request previous handicap information, if they don't disclose this then it is fraud and all clubs should have a T&C at the bottom of their new joiner sheet stating that failure to disclose all info can result in loss of membership. I know clubs need money but they certainly don't need these individuals

FixdePitchmark

I'm not talking about Carton House event here. I think the topic has drifted into the Handicap System again.

But in general

Is it not a case, that no matter what system you come up with - if a person is intent on cheating they will come up with a way - golf is a sport of honesty, where most situations are self determined - ball movement - touching ball accidentally - finding ball - kicking ball - grounding club, you can come up with 100s of examples. So if a person is going to cheat they will. They can even say 5 when it was a 6 - If they had a fresh air , or top. (old practice swing)

I guess what others are saying - why make it so easy,
Do these type of events with large prizes attract a certain type ?

We all pay good money to the GUI - should they be a more more involved in protecting the integrity of the system ?
Or is this the responsibility of the clubs ?

Not involved in formal golf too long - but I'm beginning to be inquisitive as to what the GUI actually do ?
This is my ignorance , but the Handicap system seems to be the biggest bone of contention on here - that is even amongst golfers who have been involved in formal golf in Ireland for a long time.

slave1

Tin_Cup wrote: »

...
Out of curiosity are the results returned to home clubs by Golf Digest or does the host club setup an open comp for the day?

They didn't for the one I was at but I took a photo of mine and emailed to my club...

Redzah

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I'm not talking about Carton House event here. I think the topic has drifted into the Handicap System again.

But in general

Is it not a case, that no matter what system you come up with - if a person is intent on cheating they will come up with a way - golf is a sport of honesty, where most situations are self determined - ball movement - touching ball accidentally - finding ball - kicking ball - grounding club, you can come up with 100s of examples. So if a person is going to cheat they will. They can even say 5 when it was a 6 - If they had a fresh air , or top. (old practice swing)

I guess what others are saying - why make it so easy,
Do these type of events with large prizes attract a certain type ? YES

We all pay good money to the GUI - should they be a more more involved in protecting the integrity of the system ? YES
Or is this the responsibility of the clubs ? YES, as an agent for the GUI

Not involved in formal golf too long - but I'm beginning to be inquisitive as to what the GUI actually do ? They do a lot for competitive golf in ireland which is streets ahead of other european countries but are struggling with the infestation of bandits. They seems to care less about this as they appear more focussed on the development of elite talent.

This is my ignorance , but the Handicap system seems to be the biggest bone of contention on here - that is even amongst golfers who have been involved in formal golf in Ireland for a long time.

See above Fixde, as a general comment the new age competitions with lucrative prizes such as this or the JP McManus pro-am have augmented the golfing bandits in ireland significantly, the prizes on offer are exceptional and lead individuals to bend the rules to get there (they cheat with their handicap but the don't see it this way because they write down the correct score on a hole so convince themselves its not dishonest).

The organisers have a duty of care to irish golf imo and they should implement as many deterrents on handicap criteria to keep the bandits away from these competitions. The current approach of theres nothing we can do is Bul*lsh*t

FixdePitchmark

Redzah wrote: »

See above Fixde, as a general comment the new age competitions with lucrative prizes such as this or the JP McManus pro-am have augmented the golfing bandits in ireland significantly, the prizes on offer are exceptional and lead individuals to bend the rules to get there (they cheat with their handicap but the don't see it this way because they write down the correct score on a hole so convince themselves its not dishonest).

The organisers have a duty of care to irish golf imo and they should implement as many deterrents on handicap criteria to keep the bandits away from these competitions. The current approach of theres nothing we can do is Bul*lsh*t

Ok Redzah - you seem to know a good bit about this.

But

People could cheat if they are that way inclined - it is like tax or road rules or just cheating - they will find a way. They would be like this in other parts of life.

On point of elite Irish players coming through. That is not going too well - here is me hanging onto Padraig outside top 50 in race to Dubai.


So if GUI are looking after handicap system (not working)
Elite Players (not on euro tour)

I'm going to have to look into what they are doing well.

Any other company in the country would be failing if it did not meet two of it's main targets.

gnox

millerj wrote: »

As a distance member of Slievenamon for the last two years I enjoyed your 'pluck'. My decision was a purely financial one and in my four years of golf I have failed to return one card (admittedly one too many). Started this year at 9.6, out to 11.8 and currently 10.8, plenty of ups and downs. I would also argue that if anyone from any club wants to manipulate or massage their handicaps it is in their own hands to do so regardless of where they play...if that is their nature.

millerj - In my personal experience (club captain 4 years ago of a munster club - and have personally contacted their H/C secretary twice reporting classic winners from that club), Slievenamon rarely if ever cut members based on team/non-qualifying event scores.
There are a good number of Slievenamon members that tour the Classic circuit, playing off 18+ that win >5 big events a year and always maintain their handicap.
I have a specific example of 4 of their members that won a large prize in our club classic (by 9 shots!!) - we passed their details onto Slievenamon, and no cut was ever applied. The same 4 won another major event soon after and won a holiday to a major golf venue in the US. The next year they appeared on the timesheet for our classic all 1 shot higher!
No-one can tell me that a club with any self respect would allow this kind of (reported) activity to continue.

FixdePitchmark

gnox wrote: »

millerj - In my personal experience (club captain 4 years ago of a munster club - and have personally contacted their H/C secretary twice reporting classic winners from that club), Slievenamon rarely if ever cut members based on team/non-qualifying event scores.
There are a good number of Slievenamon members that tour the Classic circuit, playing off 18+ that win >5 big events a year and always maintain their handicap.
I have a specific example of 4 of their members that won a large prize in our club classic (by 9 shots!!) - we passed their details onto Slievenamon, and no cut was ever applied. The same 4 won another major event soon after and won a holiday to a major golf venue in the US. The next year they appeared on the timesheet for our classic all 1 shot higher!
No-one can tell me that a club with any self respect would allow this kind of (reported) activity to continue.

That is unreal :eek::eek::eek::eek:

The neck of the munster lads (Joking)