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Wealth Distribution in the USA
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TrueTheory can't trump reality but if the theory is heavily flawed the theory can't happen in reality. The point being that for a complicated idea that is dependant on pragmatism there is no need to consider the pragmatic aspects to the theory if the ideal theory itself can be shown to be flawed. Sometimes this is a more convenient approach. It also helps negate biases caused by past events.
If I'm reading you right, that showing the theory as false obsoletes the need to show pragmatic problems, then that has some problems though, where if you don't nail down the theory based on past real-world precedent, then posters can argue that whether a theory will work or not, is just a 'matter of opinion' - and can slip out of addressing problems by stating a variation of "well, I disagree" (i.e. 'I have a different opinion').
So, showing pragmatic problems and showing problems with the theory, are (in my view) one and the same.
The actual theory is itself pretty nice and consistent (mostly) - it just doesn't represent the real world at all 0 -
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clairefontaine wrote: »Ive been arguing the toss over this on the Obamacare threads. Neither party has tackled all the medical fraud and the protectionist racket it is. Both parties are lining their pockets with it instead of challenging why it costs so much in the first place.
Doctors can basically bill whatever they like. I got a blood transfusion on a bill once, despite having no recollection whatsoever to having had one or consenting to one.
If medicine were more like the free market, with greater transparency and fraud laws costs would be driven down.
So now thanks to greater government control you and everyone else is now FORCED to pay for this coverage and for the doctors to medicate you.
Don't get me started on the psychs, I will never stop.
I also drink Mexican coke. And Im lucky I live is a place that has some superb supermarkers.
If you read the Irish Farmers Journal you wouldnt want to shop in Tesco either.
Back in Ireland, I did not live in Dublin. I could shop at Tesco, that was it. Here I have five major supermarkets to shop in, plus Target and Walmart, and a farmer's market. So the competition has created better choices.
As for healthcare. My little one was referred to a pediatrician. That was three years ago. I left Ireland without ever having seen the doctor and that was six months ago, no appointment was able to be made.
There was ONE pediatric dentist in the region, and she was on maternity leave.
So our system is flawed but more workable. There was a solution to our healthcare problem, but they tackled it entirely arsedways.
Absolutely, I have said to people I know, if there could be a hybrid of the Irish ways and the American ways, it would be perfect.
I got diagnosed with a blood disorder in Galway by a consultant who literally talked to me for 30 seconds and walked back out of the room and left me with a Junior Doctor who couldn't answer my questions and told me I should book another appointment to see the consultant. They said they could slot me in 6 months from then...never got the appointment.
There was a lady in Arizona who got stung by a scorpion and had a bad reaction. Her throat closed up. They gave her two doses of anti-venom. Over 80k dollar bill!! If she drove down to Mexico it would have cost 400 dollars!
I actually just found a place called Ranch Market here that seems good and cheap. Am going to try that and see what their meat is like. It's Mexican owned and run
You're right about not addressing the real issue in healthcare here. I also hate that with insurance, I can't even pick my own doctor, they have to be on a pre-approved list.
Obamacare is starting to look more and more as a form of Tax which does allow people to buy insurance who could not afford it before but is also levelling the middle income people0 -
Absolutely, I have said to people I know, if there could be a hybrid of the Irish ways and the American ways, it would be perfect.
I got diagnosed with a blood disorder in Galway by a consultant who literally talked to me for 30 seconds and walked back out of the room and left me with a Junior Doctor who couldn't answer my questions and told me I should book another appointment to see the consultant. They said they could slot me in 6 months from then...never got the appointment.
There was a lady in Arizona who got stung by a scorpion and had a bad reaction. Her throat closed up. They gave her two doses of anti-venom. Over 80k dollar bill!! If she drove down to Mexico it would have cost 400 dollars!
I actually just found a place called Ranch Market here that seems good and cheap. Am going to try that and see what their meat is like. It's Mexican owned and run
You're right about not addressing the real issue in healthcare here. I also hate that with insurance, I can't even pick my own doctor, they have to be on a pre-approved list.
Obamacare is starting to look more and more as a form of Tax which does allow people to buy insurance who could not afford it before but is also levelling the middle income people
It really depends on the insurance [although its all going tpsy turvy now so who knows], I always had very good insurance where I could choose whomever I wanted and had a very low deductible. However, I had also lived in a metropolis where I had a lot of choice anyway. This gets very difficult overall for people who live in rural areas.
Seriously if I got a bill for 80K for an anti venom treatment, I'd take them up on fraud charges. Unbelievable.
The nice thing about the US, is that you have 50 states to choose from, so if food is a priority for you, you can move to a place where they have better food choices. This firmly is why I support more states rights and less fed rights.0 -
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Ask yourself why medical care in the US cost so much.clairefontaine wrote: »Ive been arguing the toss over this on the Obamacare threads. Neither party has tackled all the medical fraud and the protectionist racket it is. Both parties are lining their pockets with it instead of challenging why it costs so much in the first place.
There was a great article in Time a few months back. Very long one, but worth the read. Here's a page where the author summarises the main points. Some of the stats involved are mind boggling. :eek:
Some from the article.
Nearly 20% of US GDP goes to health care.
62% of personal bankruptcy filings each year are related to medical bills(this staggered me TBH).
The lowest paid CEO on the list of 10 largest nonprofit hospitals earns $2,080,779(nonprofit my arse)
Of the countries that spend most on health care, the US spends by far the highest per person and yet it's life expectancy is the lowest in that group.
US infant mortality rank is 50th in the world, nine spots below Cuba
One Nexium pill in the US costs as much as eight pills in France.
The US spends more on health care than the next 10 biggest spenders combined, which include Japan, Germany, France, the U.K and Canada.
Surprise! Medicare works.
Brill’s investigation of Medicare shows an effective organization staffed by more people employed by private contractors (8,500) than government workers (700). Bills are generally processed within 30 days. The system is efficient, and 96% of doctors accept Medicare patients in spite of the discounted rates in part because they pay quickly.
“Medicare collects troves of data on what every type of treatment, test, and other service costs hospitals to deliver. Medicare takes seriously the notion that nonprofit hospitals should be paid for all their costs but actually be nonprofit after their calculation.” Besides direct costs, allocated expenses such as overhead, capital expenses, executive salaries, insurance, regional costs of living and even the education of medical students, are factored in. Even so, Brill finds, in one of many like examples, Medicare would have paid $13.94 for a hospital test billed at $199.50.
The almost poor—those who don’t qualify for Medicaid and don’t have insurance—are most often asked to pay exorbitant prices. Medicare forces discounts, as do insurance companies, so those with such resources are buffered. “If you are confused by the notion that those least able to pay are the ones singled out to pay the highest rates, welcome to the American medical marketplace.”
“The only players in the private sector who seem to operate efficiently are the private contractors working—dare I say it?—under the government’s supervision. They’re the Medicare claims processors…” Medicare’s total management, administrative and processing expenses amount to two-thirds of 1% of the amount of the claims, less than $3.80 per claim. As a comparison, Aetna spends $30 for each of its claims, about 29% of the amount of claims."
The time article entitled Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us is to be found on your fave search engine and it's well worth a read.
I'm dubious of medical insurance as the only solution. Why? Well it drives up costs. Good article here. We've seen this in an oddly related area; pet insurance. Now twenty years ago if I'd put those two words together in Ireland I would get a confused look in response. You didn't need it to near the same degree as today. Vet bills were significantly cheaper compared to today(allowing for average wages, cost of living etc). Of course more fancy medical therapies have come along since and they cost more, but that doesn't explain the rise overall of "average" costs.
For me the insurance as only avenue to healthcare isn't particularly free market. Simply because the only competition they have is with each other and when profits for all involved from shareholders, through admin, through medical suppliers through doctors are so high, there is simply no real incentive to reduce costs. Transparency is less too. They're only accountable to their shareholders and legal depts. The former are naturally happy if profits are good and will only ask questions and look for transparency if they drop, the latter don't care unless they really screw up and with their huge resources can afford to fight, or lay blame elsewhere, or even just pay out to keep "problems" quiet. Their only competition it seems is if government steps in as an alternative. If government agencies can buy a box of pills for 20 quid, it becomes a lot harder for insurance companies to justify charging 200 quid for the same pills. A properly run government agency would have to have more transparency. It's dealings would be public record. BTW when I say government I don't necessarily mean a national health service. For a start I don't see that flying in the US. Too commie
. I'd see a system whereby tax AND payments are made by citizens in some equitable way. Basically make them another, but independent insurance company.
Now I do realise I've used the word "government" a bit there
and a couple of my esteemed Libertarian friends are now looking at their own medical insurance forms to see if they're covered for apoplexy and acute wutdafuqitis. Permy is already onto his doc asking if steam coming from the ears is unhealthy* but I really can't see much of an alternative, but would be open to suggestions?
*Don't worry PB, you're grand, I come down with it a lot, but with no real long term ill effects *twitches* *dribbles*Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.
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Ask yourself why medical care in the US cost so much.
There was a great article in Time a few months back. Very long one, but worth the read. Here's a page where the author summarises the main points. Some of the stats involved are mind boggling. :eek:
Some from the article.
Nearly 20% of US GDP goes to health care.
62% of personal bankruptcy filings each year are related to medical bills(this staggered me TBH).
The lowest paid CEO on the list of 10 largest nonprofit hospitals earns $2,080,779(nonprofit my arse)
Of the countries that spend most on health care, the US spends by far the highest per person and yet it's life expectancy is the lowest in that group.
US infant mortality rank is 50th in the world, nine spots below Cuba
One Nexium pill in the US costs as much as eight pills in France.
The US spends more on health care than the next 10 biggest spenders combined, which include Japan, Germany, France, the U.K and Canada.
Surprise! Medicare works.
Brill’s investigation of Medicare shows an effective organization staffed by more people employed by private contractors (8,500) than government workers (700). Bills are generally processed within 30 days. The system is efficient, and 96% of doctors accept Medicare patients in spite of the discounted rates in part because they pay quickly.
“Medicare collects troves of data on what every type of treatment, test, and other service costs hospitals to deliver. Medicare takes seriously the notion that nonprofit hospitals should be paid for all their costs but actually be nonprofit after their calculation.” Besides direct costs, allocated expenses such as overhead, capital expenses, executive salaries, insurance, regional costs of living and even the education of medical students, are factored in. Even so, Brill finds, in one of many like examples, Medicare would have paid $13.94 for a hospital test billed at $199.50.
The almost poor—those who don’t qualify for Medicaid and don’t have insurance—are most often asked to pay exorbitant prices. Medicare forces discounts, as do insurance companies, so those with such resources are buffered. “If you are confused by the notion that those least able to pay are the ones singled out to pay the highest rates, welcome to the American medical marketplace.”
“The only players in the private sector who seem to operate efficiently are the private contractors working—dare I say it?—under the government’s supervision. They’re the Medicare claims processors…” Medicare’s total management, administrative and processing expenses amount to two-thirds of 1% of the amount of the claims, less than $3.80 per claim. As a comparison, Aetna spends $30 for each of its claims, about 29% of the amount of claims."
The time article entitled Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us is to be found on your fave search engine and it's well worth a read.
I'm dubious of medical insurance as the only solution. Why? Well it drives up costs. Good article here. We've seen this in an oddly related area; pet insurance. Now twenty years ago if I'd put those two words together in Ireland I would get a confused look in response. You didn't need it to near the same degree as today. Vet bills were significantly cheaper compared to today(allowing for average wages, cost of living etc). Of course more fancy medical therapies have come along since and they cost more, but that doesn't explain the rise overall of "average" costs.
For me the insurance as only avenue to healthcare isn't particularly free market. Simply because the only competition they have is with each other and when profits for all involved from shareholders, through admin, through medical suppliers through doctors are so high, there is simply no real incentive to reduce costs. Transparency is less too. They're only accountable to their shareholders and legal depts. The former are naturally happy if profits are good and will only ask questions and look for transparency if they drop, the latter don't care unless they really screw up and with their huge resources can afford to fight, or lay blame elsewhere, or even just pay out to keep "problems" quiet. Their only competition it seems is if government steps in as an alternative. If government agencies can buy a box of pills for 20 quid, it becomes a lot harder for insurance companies to justify charging 200 quid for the same pills. A properly run government agency would have to have more transparency. It's dealings would be public record. BTW when I say government I don't necessarily mean a national health service. For a start I don't see that flying in the US. Too commie. I'd see a system whereby tax AND payments are made by citizens in some equitable way. Basically make them another, but independent insurance company.
Now I do realise I've used the word "government" a bit there and a couple of my esteemed Libertarian friends are now looking at their own medical insurance forms to see if they're covered for apoplexy and acute wutdafuqitis. Permy is already onto his doc asking if steam coming from the ears is unhealthy* but I really can't see much of an alternative, but would be open to suggestions?
*Don't worry PB, you're grand, I come down with it a lot, but with no real long term ill effects *twitches* *dribbles*
This nightmare started with Nixon and his alphabet soup, HMOs. This allowed for huge amounts of covert fraud, anti competitiveness, lack of transparency in billing, less choice for customers, and as a result huge rising costs in medicine.
Medicine was a lot more affordable before HMOs and government sticking their nose in.
Yes, why is a c section under private care in Europe around the E5 k mark but $30,000 in the US.
Why am I referred to a neurologist when I go in complaining about digestion issues.
Why am I given vicoden when all I need is some ibuprofin?
WHY WHY WHY?
Because it is a cartel, enforced by the government. The government has forbidden ordering your pills from Canada and also put in restrictions on foreign doctors coming into practise.0 -
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