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The future of Christianity in Ireland?

  • 30-10-2013 10:01PM
    #1
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭


    Is there one? If so how do you see it and what do you see that future's relation to both the Bible and historic Christianity?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,066 ✭✭✭homer911


    Many churches are going through unprecedented growth, mainly evangelical, apostolic or pentacostal churches. These would be biblically based and also modeled on first century practices, in a modern setting


  • #3
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    homer911 wrote: »
    Many churches are going through unprecedented growth, mainly evangelical, apostolic or pentacostal churches. These would be biblically based and also modeled on first century practices, in a modern setting

    True Pentecostal Churches are growing-but compare their growth in Brazil and than look at Ireland (Im thinking primarily of the 26 counties). Im also not sure that they are modeled on first century practices but I guess that would be for another thread.

    Also some "Non-Conformist" Churches are filled with solid Christians who in my opinion are wrong about some things but they do have the Spirit of Christ in them- some though market a pop "Christianity". I would hate to see the out and out Americanization of Christianity in Ireland.


  • #4
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Given the long and mostly positive contribution Catholicism has made to Irish social fabric, the doctrinal vigour of the Pope emeritus coupled with the enthusiasm that Pope Francis has generated means that the large volume of mass goers are a solid foundation for future growth.


  • #5
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manach wrote: »
    Given the long and mostly positive contribution Catholicism has made to Irish social fabric, the doctrinal vigour of the Pope emeritus coupled with the enthusiasm that Pope Francis has generated means that the large volume of mass goers are a solid foundation for future growth.

    You have a point about long and mostly positive; but the negative was mostly in the late 19 th and 20 th century. The alliance of the RCC with the elite slit its own throat-an example is the way Roman Catholicism is blamed the industrial schools, etc rather than Irish Capitalism. How large are the volume of Mass goers? And more to the point how much do they believe basic Christian doctrine-no mind Catholic doctrine?

    Unlike people from the north where Im from I find that often Im a lot more "Catholic" than actual Catholics in the south.


  • #6
    Geomy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Is there one? If so how do you see it and what do you see that future's relation to both the Bible and historic Christianity?

    New age Christianity is the way to go :-)


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  • #7
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Geomy wrote: »
    New age Christianity is the way to go :-)

    What do you mean by New age Christianity? The sort of stuff that comes out of Glenstal Abbey?


  • #8
    Carpet diem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Carpet diem


    Future looks bleak imo.


  • #9
    Geomy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    What do you mean by New age Christianity? The sort of stuff that comes out of Glenstal Abbey?

    No the sort of stuff that comes out of Glastonbury ;-)


  • #10
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Geomy wrote: »
    No the sort of stuff that comes out of Glastonbury ;-)

    I dont understand. Personally I find the whole of the south west of England very mystical- but its a region that tends to attract eccentric but very interesting Orthodox, Roman Catholic traditionalist and Continuing Anglican mystical types who are anything but new age. Every time Ive been there I have into some very interesting conversations with believers. Let's face it though whatever about the past the Irish of today dont really do mysticism.


  • #11
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8380511.stm


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  • #12
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8380511.stm
    Interesting link. But implausible. From my academic understanding of the Meditarian trading patterns, there were links between the Levant and what were called the Tin Isles, but these would have been commercial and based on the market in ores between the various coastal communities. During the unrecorded years, many ideas can be put forward, but if there were travels it would be more likely along the existing routes, to Eygpt, modern day Turkey or else east to the Parthians.


  • #13
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manach wrote: »
    Interesting link. But implausible. From my academic understanding of the Meditarian trading patterns, there were links between the Levant and what were called the Tin Isles, but these would have been commercial and based on the market in ores between the various coastal communities. During the unrecorded years, many ideas can be put forward, but if there were travels it would be more likely along the existing routes, to Eygpt, modern day Turkey or else east to the Parthians.

    Im not so sure; the legends are very ancient.

    Have you looked into Bob Quinn's research?

    http://journalofmusic.com/focus/atlantean-irish-irish-musics-north-african-connections

    http://conamara.org/index.php?page=atlantean


  • #14
    Geomy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Here's an Irish mystic, John Moriarty from Kerry.
    He died there a few year's ago, I read most of his books.
    They're inaccessible in some chapters but very insightful

    http://wordkern.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/john-moriarty/

    m.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyoEV0OVRY


  • #15
    apple5s
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭apple5s


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Is there one? If so how do you see it and what do you see that future's relation to both the Bible and historic Christianity?

    The Bible is a part of Christianity. I don't understand what you mean by in relation to?

    Christianity is growing again in Ireland. The influx of 150,000 poles has obviously helped. Dominicans, Franciscans are growing, There is an increase in entries to diocesan seminaries. Opus Dei now has several centres around Ireland. People are beginning to question their faith and it either means they turn away or the examine more their faith.

    Money, Jobs etc... Don't provide answers to the most essential questions in life. Unlike the protestant church and they polyester labels for newcomers. The Catholic Church has turned a corner.


  • #16
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Is there one? If so how do you see it and what do you see that future's relation to both the Bible and historic Christianity?

    the future's here and It's already happening - more "catholics" will apostasize, following in the footsteps of the current teashock, claiming to to be practicing catholics in private but atheist or at best protestant when in public, some will switch to whatever form of protestantism allows then to keep their belief in God but allow them to continue to practice their favourite sins and the rest will fall away into agnosticism or cafe catholicism. There may well be some subscribers to the form of catholicism proposed by the likes of the ACP and other Church of Nice types who will become the public face of Irish catholicism.

    The remaining traditional Catholics will become part of the Counter Culture, shunning the Sodom and Gomorrah ways of modern Ireland ands will probably be persecuted, as those who currently speak out against abortion and gay marriage are.
    Whether the immigrant catholics remain traditional or adopt the cafe option remains to be seen. If what is currently happening in other English speaking Christian nations is anything to go by they will likely follow the same pattern and move away from anyone who teaches that Hell is real, and people\souls go there.

    Bibilically it looks like the Book of Revelation. Historically it looks like Rome under Caligula.


  • #17
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭robp


    Festus wrote: »
    the future's here and It's already happening - more "catholics" will apostasize, following in the footsteps of the current teashock, claiming to to be practicing catholics in private but atheist or at best protestant when in public, some will switch to whatever form of protestantism allows then to keep their belief in God but allow them to continue to practice their favourite sins and the rest will fall away into agnosticism or cafe catholicism. There may well be some subscribers to the form of catholicism proposed by the likes of the ACP and other Church of Nice types who will become the public face of Irish catholicism.

    The remaining traditional Catholics will become part of the Counter Culture, shunning the Sodom and Gomorrah ways of modern Ireland ands will probably be persecuted, as those who currently speak out against abortion and gay marriage are.
    Whether the immigrant catholics remain traditional or adopt the cafe option remains to be seen. If what is currently happening in other English speaking Christian nations is anything to go by they will likely follow the same pattern and move away from anyone who teaches that Hell is real, and people\souls go there.

    Bibilically it looks like the Book of Revelation. Historically it looks like Rome under Caligula.

    I would argue that the traddies although a small minority are much stable. Its the liberal minded communities that seem to be dropping numbers more. Particularly in the states or continental Europe like France.


  • #18
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Festus wrote: »
    the future's here and It's already happening - more "catholics" will apostasize, following in the footsteps of the current teashock, claiming to to be practicing catholics in private but atheist or at best protestant when in public, some will switch to whatever form of protestantism allows then to keep their belief in God but allow them to continue to practice their favourite sins and the rest will fall away into agnosticism or cafe catholicism. There may well be some subscribers to the form of catholicism proposed by the likes of the ACP and other Church of Nice types who will become the public face of Irish catholicism.

    The remaining traditional Catholics will become part of the Counter Culture, shunning the Sodom and Gomorrah ways of modern Ireland ands will probably be persecuted, as those who currently speak out against abortion and gay marriage are.
    Whether the immigrant catholics remain traditional or adopt the cafe option remains to be seen. If what is currently happening in other English speaking Christian nations is anything to go by they will likely follow the same pattern and move away from anyone who teaches that Hell is real, and people\souls go there.

    Bibilically it looks like the Book of Revelation. Historically it looks like Rome under Caligula.
    Your world is a scary and horrible place. I feel sorry for you.

    MrP


  • #19
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Festus wrote: »
    the future's here and It's already happening - more "catholics" will apostasize, following in the footsteps of the current teashock, claiming to to be practicing catholics in private but atheist or at best protestant when in public, some will switch to whatever form of protestantism allows then to keep their belief in God but allow them to continue to practice their favourite sins and the rest will fall away into agnosticism or cafe catholicism. There may well be some subscribers to the form of catholicism proposed by the likes of the ACP and other Church of Nice types who will become the public face of Irish catholicism.

    The remaining traditional Catholics will become part of the Counter Culture, shunning the Sodom and Gomorrah ways of modern Ireland ands will probably be persecuted, as those who currently speak out against abortion and gay marriage are.
    Whether the immigrant catholics remain traditional or adopt the cafe option remains to be seen. If what is currently happening in other English speaking Christian nations is anything to go by they will likely follow the same pattern and move away from anyone who teaches that Hell is real, and people\souls go there.

    Bibilically it looks like the Book of Revelation. Historically it looks like Rome under Caligula.
    You seem to be confusing the future of Christianity in Ireland with the future of one church (Roman Catholicism).
    Festus wrote: »
    ... some (Roman Catholics) will switch to whatever form of protestantism allows then to keep their belief in God but allow them to continue to practice their favourite sins
    It has been my experience that Roman Catholic converts are people of utmost integrity ...
    ... indeed, could I suggest that if Roman Catholics wish to licence their sin ... they are likely to merely lapse into apostacy, rather than joining any other church.


  • #20
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Your world is a scary and horrible place. I feel sorry for you.

    MrP
    Please save your sorrow.

    The world is an amazing place ... sometimes good and sometimes bad ... as Human free-will is exercised ... and as God responds to the prayers of Christians ... and Christians spread His love to everyone who will accept it.


  • #21
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    J C wrote: »
    It has been my experience that Roman Catholic converts are people of utmost integrity ...
    ... indeed, could I suggest that if Roman Catholics wish to licence their sin ... they are likely to merely lapse into apostacy, rather than joining any other church.

    In my experience Irish Roman Catholics converts to Reformed Christianity fall into three catergories; those who came from nominally RC houses but never had the reality of God given to them and only really got to experience what the Gospel means through pious Protestants, those who came to Protestantism out of study and hard wrestling with theological issues- but there are also those who who went over (nearly always to the C of I) because they wanted a Church would have little or no problem with their worldliness.


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  • #22
    lmaopml
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    People are just people at the end of the day, no matter how brainy or dull or gifted or not gifted they judge themselves to be, they are merely people, like everybody else.

    Some will have a religious upbringing and will either pay regard to it or disregard it altogether in favor of the friends, times, people they live among etc. This isn't new - it's age old. Some will have a longing to know too much and look in all the wrong places.

    I think personally, that it's really important to be a Christian if you claim to be a follower - to live it, love it, and be the face of Christ in times of anguish and mourning and pain, and also in times of joy and celebration too, and also to be a 'friend' - nobody said the cross is easy, it isn't, but my goodness it's certainly the best road trip in life, that's for sure!

    It may sound 'daft' to pick up your cross and 'live' not only on the surface, but in the heart of your life - and there are so many people who are heroes of this venture.

    I think it's important to remember, and also most important to stress the need to 'know' Jesus. Not just the childhood understanding but the adult who can discern the parables, who can not only read, but read, then think, then pray, and than receive in contemplation the word of God. So many are stuck in their childhood..

    This is called Lectio Divina, it's praying Scripture, it's very very old and very beautiful to start to master.


  • #23
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    J C wrote: »
    Please save your sorrow.

    The world is an amazing place ... sometimes good and sometimes bad ... as Human free-will is exercised ... and as God responds to the prayers of Christians ... and Christians spread His love to everyone who will accept it.
    You pray for me, I pity you. Seems fair to me.

    MrP


  • #24
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    MrPudding wrote: »
    You pray for me, I pity you. Seems fair to me.

    MrP
    Of course I will pray for you Mr P.
    ... but I don't need your pity ... the total cost of my Christian love for you ... is no charge!!!:)

    ... now where is Dolly Parton ... when I need her?:)


  • #25
    georgesstreet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭georgesstreet


    J C wrote: »
    Please save your sorrow.

    . and as God responds to the prayers of Christians ... and Christians spread His love to everyone who will accept it.

    I think all the children raped and tortuted by priests have already had enough of his "love".

    I find this sort of one sided "god is love" attitude completely ignores history, where god told one tribe to massacre and kill another tribe and so and so on, to be completely devoid of any balance. Or how about all those christians put to death in the name of god for the "crime" of owning a bible? I could go ona nd on with many more examples.

    What evidence, after reading the bible, leads you to conclude god is a god of love? Certainly its what the church want you to believe now ( after centurys of murdering anyone who disagreed with them, how can you trust what they say), but have you actually read the bible, all of it?


  • #26
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    georgesstreet wrote: »
    I think all the children raped and tortuted by priests have already had enough of his "love".

    I find this sort of one sided "god is love" attitude completely ignores history, where god told one tribe to massacre and kill another tribe and so and so on, to be completely devoid of any balance. Or how about all those christians put to death in the name of god for the "crime" of owning a bible? I could go ona nd on with many more examples.

    What evidence, after reading the bible, leads you to conclude god is a god of love? Certainly its what the church want you to believe now ( after centurys of murdering anyone who disagreed with them, how can you trust what they say), but have you actually read the bible, all of it?

    Mod note: Let's keep this thread dedicated to discussing the future of Christianity in Ireland, please. The atheism/existence of God megathread is here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056276998


  • #27
    georgesstreet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭georgesstreet


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Mod note: Let's keep this thread dedicated to discussing the future of Christianity in Ireland, please. The atheism/existence of God megathread is here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056276998


    Sure. Are you saying we are not allowed challenge anyone who claims christianity is all about "love" in this thread?


  • #28
    Geomy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    georgesstreet wrote: »
    Sure. Are you saying we are not allowed challenge anyone who claims christianity is all about "love" in this thread?

    Im also sceptical about the vengeful God of the Bible.
    Im more spiritual and newage, I don't believe in a vengeful and resentful God....

    That's Christianity is on the way out, some people go in an atheistic direction, other's become pagans or towards new age spirituality.

    You made a good point there, I can see what you mean. ..


  • #29
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    georgesstreet wrote: »
    Sure. Are you saying we are not allowed challenge anyone who claims christianity is all about "love" in this thread?

    My remark wasn't solely directed at you. The topic of the thread is I'm the title, so let's try and avoid it being derailed by issues which are catered for in the megathreads.


  • #30
    georgesstreet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭georgesstreet


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    My remark wasn't solely directed at you. The topic of the thread is I'm the title, so let's try and avoid it being derailed by issues which are catered for in the megathreads.

    I completely understand about derailing the thread and take your point. However, if someone makes a claim which is open to dispute in this thread, maybe it needs to be challenged.

    As to the future of christianity in Ireland, perhaps the most hopeful sign is that the church is being marginalised, and if anything individuals are thinking for themselves and not just taking what the priests want to spoon feed them. That's the best progress we can hope for and bodes well for the future.


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  • #31
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    georgesstreet wrote: »
    I completely understand about derailing the thread and take your point. However, if someone makes a claim which is open to dispute in this thread, maybe it needs to be challenged.

    As to the future of christianity in Ireland, perhaps the most hopeful sign is that the church is being marginalised, and if anything individuals are thinking for themselves and not just taking what the priests want to spoon feed them. That's the best progress we can hope for and bodes well for the future.
    Saved Christians have always thought for themselves ... so nothing has changed there.
    I take your point that some churches are more marginalised than they used to be ... but I think that Christianity still has a lot going for it in Ireland ... starting with the inspiration provided by the Holy Spirit ... and the dedication and loving example of the many good Christians who live the Gospel daily throughout this island.


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