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Child removed from Roma gypsies-This time in DUBLIN *Mod Warning Post #1*

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Comments

  • #1382
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    If you believe that, then you believe that the child's parents represented an immediate and serious risk to the child's welfare or health. Because this is what you yourself have quoted in the childcare act as being the grounds for removing the child.

    I dont see how the gardai could discern an immediate and serious risk to the child's health or welfare is in this case....

    .....made all the more galling by the thousands upon thousands of cases where parents in this country did represent an immediate threat to their children, and nothing was done.

    I can easily see how because the way events played out, the guards would have beleived that the people (possibly the parents) posed a risk to the childs welfare... the document they produced was contradicted by the hospital where the child was supposedly born - obviously NOW we know different, but at the time the guards were told the document couldnt be supported.


  • #1383
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,122 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    There were no reasonable grounds and absolutely no immediate risk, the silly buggers being played are by those seeking to defend the wholly indefensible.

    That's the bit we don't know so cannot assume anything.
    They obviously had some reason to take the action they did though.
    I will await the inquiry before I condemn to be fair.


  • #1384
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    niallo24 wrote: »
    Would the risk not be if they left the child with the Roma's, and waited for DNA testing results, the Roma's and child may have fled? This going on the assumption that they may have done something illegal which obviously it turns out they didn't. But at the time the Gardai were not clear on that.

    ...of what?


  • #1385
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    Tony EH wrote: »
    As I have already said, perhaps the parents were able to produce the docs for the other children. I don't know, I wasn't there and anything said on it is a matter of conjecture without any solid facts either way.

    If the Gardai simply didn't bother with the other kids documents, then there would be grounds for an issue, but it remains unknown whether that was the case.
    What does it matter if they had documents for the other children, if the one removed was at immediate risk they all were. Surely it follows that adults who are a risk to one child is a risk to other children too?

    A cynic could conclude that you and the Garda arent too bothered with the other kids because they are brown.


  • #1386
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    If you believe that, then you believe that the child's parents represented an immediate and serious risk to the child's welfare or health. Because this is what you yourself have quoted in the childcare act as being the grounds for removing the child.

    I dont see how the gardai could discern an immediate and serious risk to the child's health or welfare is in this case....

    .....made all the more galling by the thousands upon thousands of cases where parents in this country did represent an immediate threat to their children, and nothing was done.

    The Gardai acted on a claim made.

    The investigated the family concerned.

    The parents story didn't add up with the information from the instituions that were questioned. THIS QUITE RIGHTLY SPARKS THE GARDAI'S SUSPICIONS.

    The welfare of the child is in question because of said information's non-conformity.

    The Gardai act under the provisions of the Child Care Act and hand the child over to the HSE.

    The parents later conceded to a DNA test, which proves their parentage, along the confirmed records.

    Case closed.


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  • #1387
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    ...of what?
    Of anything..
    If the people had a child which turned out there was no trace where it came from or how they came to have it.. they could be capable of anything !

    of what indeed, as if we don't know what can happen to children who are in compromising situations or left in the hands of those who don't have their best interest to the forefront.


  • #1388
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,122 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The Gardai acted on a claim made.

    The investigated the family concerned.

    The parents story didn't add up with the information from the instituions that were questioned. THIS QUITE RIGHTLY SPARKS THE GARDAI'S SUSPICIONS.

    The welfare of the child is in question because of said information's non-conformity.

    The Gardai act under the provisions of the Child Care Act and hand the child over to the HSE.

    The parents later conceded to a DNA test, which proves their parentage, along the confirmed records.

    Case closed.
    Any idea why the mother did not tell the authorities why she used her maiden name while in the Coome having the child as that might have sorted the matter out? They were looking under the married name it seems.


  • #1389
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    bbam wrote: »
    Reasonable grounds indeed..
    The guards followed up on the concerns of a citizen, concerns based on an actual case proven to be fact..

    What actual case proven to be fact. The only facts that I am aware of is that somebody through Facebook made a spurious baseless allegation against a family accusing them of kidnapping a little white girl.

    The authorities investigate and fail to establish the FACTS surrounding the accusation despite being given two separate, state issued, forms of proof as to the Kids identity and details of when and where the child was born which was confirmed when a Jurno made the effort to do a compitent check of the records.


    The only facts we know about the Greese case is that the people the blond kid was living with are not her natural parents. I would imagine if this was some missing kid that had been snatched off the street then they would have been identified by now and reunited with their natural parents.

    Much more likley is that the kid was unofficialy adopted from another Roma family.


  • #1390
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    You seem to have the opinion, that if the child is the parents, that you don't care what happens to the child, but with the doubt hanging over one, and the "risk", it means the child has to be taken into care?

    Where is that "my" opinion. I have expressed no such opinion.

    I have merely stated what has happened with the information that is at hand.

    Regardless whether I, or anyone else agree with how the Gardai exercised their duty in this matter, the fact is that they acted within the law.

    If you think that the law or the Gardai were lacking in respect to this case, that remains only a matter of debate.

    I don't make the laws, nor do I enforced them, nor was I there at the scene, nor would I have handled things in the same manner.

    But such words don't really mean anything.

    The Gardai acted in accordance with section 12 of the Child Care Act, whether we agree with their methods, or not.


  • #1391
    Oranage2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,129 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    drumswan wrote: »
    They had no reasonable grounds for believing that there was an immediate serious risk to the health or welfare of the child but took him anyway.

    The kid appeared to be white, and after hearing about the Greece case, imagine nothing was done and the was abducted, how stupid would the police look then.

    The cops made a big call doing what they done but I believe it was in the best interest of the child.


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  • #1392
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The Gardai acted on a claim made.

    The investigated the family concerned.

    The parents story didn't add up with the information from the instituions that were questioned. THIS QUITE RIGHTLY SPARKS THE GARDAI'S SUSPICIONS.

    The welfare of the child is in question because of said information's non-conformity.

    The Gardai act under the provisions of the Child Care Act and hand the child over to the HSE.

    The parents later conceded to a DNA test, which proves their parentage, along the confirmed records.

    Case closed.

    You wish. Sadly for you, questions have to be asked and the Gardai have to take responsibility. Gone are the days of "ah, suren it'll be grand" brushing things under the carpet.


  • #1393
    Princess Peach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,698 ✭✭✭✭Princess Peach


    In the reasonable grounds debate of whether the children had been abducted, I wonder did the Gardai check the missing children registrar. If a child has been abducted, chances are there is a missing child reported somewhere. Maddy McCann was global sure.

    The Greece case being an exception, chances that 3 separate Roma families abducted 3 children that were never reported missing seem pretty low. If there was a case of a missing child of similar age and description, the maybe abduction could be a possibility, rather than just recessive genes?


  • #1394
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I knew that, but the children's referendum if allowed to be put into law - a court case over it, will make it easier again.

    But the law is already on the statute books from 1991 pre the referendum, it was put there to be used.

    The only relevance I can see with this case and the referendum is the argument that was made that we already had plenty of legislation on the books, it was only a matter of using it.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1395
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    RustyNut wrote: »
    What actual case proven to be fact. The only facts that I am aware of is that somebody through Facebook made a spurious baseless allegation against a family accusing them of kidnapping a little white girl. Case in Greece

    The authorities investigate and fail to establish the FACTS surrounding the accusation despite being given two separate, state issued, forms of proof as to the Kids identity and details of when and where the child was born which was confirmed when a Jurno made the effort to do a compitent check of the records.
    Yes but the jurno wasnt standing in a house trying to make an on the spot decision, the guards did seek out and get information on the documents and it didnt support the documents given


    The only facts we know about the Greese case is that the people the blond kid was living with are not her natural parents. I would imagine if this was some missing kid that had been snatched off the street then they would have been identified by now and reunited with their natural parents.

    Much more likley is that the kid was unofficialy adopted from another Roma family.
    the family in question have changed their story a number of times, initally claiming the child was their bio child and then changing to another story. Its a fact they lied about the origon of the child in greece - a case which like the fact or not was brought forward by the appearance of the child alone - would you call that person a racist?

    If the child was unofficially adopted within their community why would they, after already being caught out lieing, go on to spin a different story

    .


  • #1396
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The Gardai acted in accordance with section 12 of the Child Care Act, whether we agree with their methods, or not.

    That is far from being an established fact, indeed it is little more than conjecture on your part.
    For my part and based on the information currently in the public domain I would dispute that they acted in accordance with the law.


  • #1397
    Ace2007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,031 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Where is that "my" opinion. I have expressed no such opinion.

    I have merely stated what has happened with the information that is at hand.

    Regardless whether I, or anyone else agree with how the Gardai exercised their duty in this matter, the fact is that they acted within the law.

    If you think that the law or the Gardai were lacking in respect to this case, that remains only a matter of debate.

    I don't make the laws, nor do I enforced them, nor was I there at the scene, nor would I have handled things in the same manner.

    But such words don't really mean anything.

    The Gardai acted in accordance with section 12 of the Child Care Act, whether we agree with their methods, or not.

    You say the child was taken because of a "risk", but that the other children weren't because you assumed that there were documents for that child, therefore this risk you talk about seems to be made up.

    If there is a risk of abduction, would you not arrest or take in the parents for questioning?


  • #1398
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Any idea why the mother did not tell the authorities why she used her maiden name while in the Coome having the child as that might have sorted the matter out? They were looking under the married name it seems.

    I don't know about that. AFAIK, the child's Christian name on the Birth Cert was different to the one in use and the address was a former one (which is not really an issue). Her Sir name matched the parents.

    However, the parents couldn't provide this document until after the Gardai had acted under the CCA.

    The Gardai didn't act because there was fault with the cert, they acted because the verbal information given by the parents failed to be confirmed by the records at the hospital or the registry office.


  • #1399
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    The kid appeared to be white, and after hearing about the Greece case, imagine nothing was done and the was abducted, how stupid would the police look then.

    The cops made a big call doing what they done but I believe it was in the best interest of the child.

    My cousin's daughter is mixed race and was questioned - when applying for a driving license - if she was actually related to her mother (because they have different skin tones and different surnames). It upset her quite a bit. That's over in the States where sadly, despite decades of education and progress - institutionalised racism still exists. We have to stamp out any sign of it in Ireland. Otherwise we'll see more incidents such as the thread topic, I'm afraid.


  • #1400
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    old hippy wrote: »
    You wish. Sadly for you, questions have to be asked and the Gardai have to take responsibility. Gone are the days of "ah, suren it'll be grand" brushing things under the carpet.

    Sadly for me? ha ha... :pac:

    The case of parentage is closed.

    What happens regarding Garda actions in the matter is a different thing entirely.


  • #1401
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    old hippy wrote: »
    You wish. Sadly for you, questions have to be asked and the Gardai have to take responsibility. Gone are the days of "ah, suren it'll be grand" brushing things under the carpet.

    It shouldnt be swept under the carpet..

    But should we be holding guards to account through information that only came to light after the event. If they haddnet bothered to verify the documents and just taken the child that would be very different...

    They saught verification of the documents, the information returned to them at the time was that the information was false i.e the child wasnt born on that date in the hospital. They then acted on this information.

    We should apologise to these families.
    Somehow compensate them.
    Offer support and counciling.

    Enact a proper procedure to be followed
    Train and staff the resources to enable the procedure..

    We should not be looking for people to be blooded for no good reason !


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  • #1402
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Sadly for me? ha ha... :pac:

    The case of parentage is closed.

    What happens regarding Garda actions in the matter is a different thing entirely.

    Case not closed, in other words.


  • #1403
    Oranage2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,129 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    humanji wrote: »
    They took a child away from it's parents because they had a mild suspicion based on racial profiling due to a case tat happened in Greece .

    And whats wrong with racial profiling, it can be extremely useful at times , Roma gypsies have a lot of barbaric customs and traditions like being able to marry a young girls as young as 13, and with the recent case of child abduction, the gardai were right to make sure the kid was theirs!


  • #1404
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    The kid appeared to be white, and after hearing about the Greece case, imagine nothing was done and the was abducted, how stupid would the police look then.

    The cops made a big call doing what they done but I believe it was in the best interest of the child.

    I don't fully fault the gardaí in this situation. But there were more options that either taking the child or doing nothing. They should of had the sense to make sure. There's enough of a spotlight on everything they do these days that one of them should of had the sense to see this coming.


  • #1405
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    You say the child was taken because of a "risk", but that the other children weren't because you assumed that there were documents for that child, therefore this risk you talk about seems to be made up.

    If there is a risk of abduction, would you not arrest or take in the parents for questioning?

    The parents were on hold.


  • #1406
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,351 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    old hippy wrote: »
    Case not closed, in other words.

    The case of the child's parentage is closed.


  • #1407
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The case of the child's parentage is closed.

    Yes, we've established that the parents are bona fide. Now we have the case of how the Gardai messed up and what actions should be taken against them and to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen again.


  • #1408
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    And whats wrong with racial profiling, it can be extremely useful at times , Roma gypsies have a lot of barbaric customs and traditions like being able to marry a young girls as young as 13, and with the recent case of child abduction, the gardai were right to make sure the kid was theirs!

    And if it happened to you, if your child was abducted by the police? Would that be ok?


  • #1409
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,122 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    old hippy wrote: »
    Yes, we've established that the parents are bona fide. Now we have the case of how the Gardai messed up and what actions should be taken against them and to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen again.

    I think to be fair i'll wait for the inquiry in this one.


  • #1410
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    old hippy wrote: »
    My cousin's daughter is mixed race and was questioned - when applying for a driving license - if she was actually related to her mother (because they have different skin tones and different surnames). It upset her quite a bit. That's over in the States where sadly, despite decades of education and progress - institutionalised racism still exists. We have to stamp out any sign of it in Ireland. Otherwise we'll see more incidents such as the thread topic, I'm afraid.

    Indeed, only talking to the OH about this last night. We plan on using a donor from her country when we have our child. I can't imagine how hurt I would be if someone stopped me with my own baby and questioned me as to whether I am the real mum!


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  • #1411
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    bbam wrote: »
    Of anything..
    If the people had a child which turned out there was no trace where it came from or how they came to have it.. they could be capable of anything !

    of what indeed, as if we don't know what can happen to children who are in compromising situations or left in the hands of those who don't have their best interest to the forefront.

    Sure you could say that about anyone with a child. You must have something more than that? Why was it decided that child might be at risk? And what risk was the child possibly at?


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