Busting the "3 km/h over the speed limit" myth

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 11:50AM #1

An Garda Siochana have released data showing that they issued 140,000 fixed charged notices for speeding between January and September of this year.

http://www.thejournal.ie/speeding-bank-holiday-weekend-1144159-Oct2013/

Of particular value, in my opinion, is the data showing the percentage of detections according to different levels of speeding.

A common myth, on Boards and elsewhere, is that hordes of motorists are being unfairly nabbed for being just a few km over the speed limit, thereby revealing the true purpose of speed surveillance, which is to extract as much extra revenue as possible from otherwise careful, considerate and hard-pressed motorists.

I'm not inclined to believe that story, and I think these stats show the real situation.

6% (8,237) of detections were of speeds 1-9 km/h above the speed limit in the zone.
80% of detections (111,044) were 10-29 km/h above the limit.
14% (19,302) detections were for speeds 30 km/h or more above the limit.

So that means 94% of speeding offences recorded by AGS are for speeds 10 km/h or more above the limit, ie 60+ in a 50 zone, 90+ in an 80 zone and so on.

Myth busted.

Red Kev · 24-10-2013 11:52AM

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 11:54AM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Myth busted.

How so?

over 8,000 people done for being 1-9 km/h over the limit

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 11:59AM

Riskymove wrote: »

How so?

over 8,000 people done for being 1-9 km/h over the limit

What percentage is that?

The Bishop Basher · 24-10-2013 12:04PM

This doesn't negate the overwhelming evidence that suggests it is a revenue generating exercise in any way shape or form.

It's the locations of the traps that are the issue. Not the actual speeds people are fined for.

listermint · 24-10-2013 12:06PM

Swanner wrote: »

This doesn't negate the overwhelming evidence that suggests it is a revenue generating exercise in any way shape or form.

It's the locations of the traps that are the issue. Not the actual speeds people are fined for.

And the speeds at particular locations, many nonsensical with the flow of traffic.

dnme · 24-10-2013 12:07PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What percentage is that?

6%

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 12:07PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What percentage is that?

sure whats that got to do with it..they are still being done...over 8,000 in 9 months

tbh I think you are misinterpreting the "myths" out there

In my experience the common complaints are:

1. People are done for being slightly over the limit
2. Speed traps are set in places where speeding is not as risky (i.e. dual carrraigeway etc and not back roads)

I have never seen anyone claim that the majority of tickets are for people only doing slightly over a limit or that people driving way over limits are not done for it

I do not see anything in the stats to dispel either.

although, in any event, people complaining about 1 or 2 are generally just fed up as they were done and trying to justify themselves breaking the law

Bigcheeze · 24-10-2013 12:12PM

Is there a stat for the percentage of speeding fines issued on non-residential dual carriageways with 60kmh limits ?

Gary ITR · 24-10-2013 12:18PM

That's not a common myth at all. 8000 people is a high enough number.

Also anybody that has sat a driving test in Ireland will tell you you're thought to slightly exceed the limit. I was told to drive at about 33mph (55kph)

wonski · 24-10-2013 12:23PM

Gary ITR wrote: »

That's not a common myth at all. 8000 people is a high enough number.

Also anybody that has sat a driving test in Ireland will tell you you're thought to slightly exceed the limit. I was told to drive at about 33mph (55kph)

It is an indicated speed, and it usually is little lower anyway.
8000 isn't a margin, agreed. But it is 1-9km/h, so we don't know the numbers for 1-3 km/h...

Voodoomelon · 24-10-2013 12:27PM

I think the bigger myth that has been busted here is that the speedcameras allow 5-10% error margin. If people are being caught at 1kph over the limit, this is the more interesting finding.

djimi · 24-10-2013 12:27PM

Id be interested to see how that 1-9km/h breaks down. You wont be done for being a couple of km/h over the limit, and in reality, given the inaccuracies on most speedos, if you are really say 5km/h over the limit then chances are your speedo is more likely showing 10km/h over, and that being the case you really cant have any cause for complaint.

Valetta · 24-10-2013 12:28PM

Anyone who gets done for being more than 10 km/h over the limit deserves it for nothing more than being an idiot and not paying attention, regardless of where the trap is.

Therefore, in my opinion 94% of fines are deserved.

Henry Ford III · 24-10-2013 12:28PM

Depends totally on how the authorities view the limit. My info. (and it's good) suggests a small bit of discretion is allowed.

Anan1 · 24-10-2013 12:28PM

Speed traps in this country could better be described as 'not looking where you're going traps' - you can speed away, as long as you keep your eyes open.

djimi · 24-10-2013 12:29PM

Gary ITR wrote: »

Also anybody that has sat a driving test in Ireland will tell you you're thought to slightly exceed the limit. I was told to drive at about 33mph (55kph)

I was never told any such thing when I was learning to drive!

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 12:34PM

Swanner wrote: »

This doesn't negate the overwhelming evidence that suggests it is a revenue generating exercise in any way shape or form.

It's the locations of the traps that are the issue. Not the actual speeds people are fined for.

Data = evidence, as per the Garda stats quoted above.

What "overwhelming evidence" are you referring to? Facts please, not opinion, supposition, assumptions or other unsubstantiated claims.

Riskymove wrote: »

People are done for being slightly over the limit

How would you define "slightly"?

Gary ITR wrote: »

That's not a common myth at all. 8000 people is a high enough number.

Also anybody that has sat a driving test in Ireland will tell you you're thought to slightly exceed the limit. I was told to drive at about 33mph (55kph)

It's a question of proportion. Six percent are up to 9 km/h over the limit, while 94% are 10 km/h or more over.

Can you point to any RSA guidelines / ADI documentation which instructs learners to drive at 5 km/h over the default urban limit? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if it does I want to get a hold of it.

wonski · 24-10-2013 12:34PM

djimi wrote: »

I was never told any such thing when I was learning to drive!

It is good for the test to go slightly, very slightly over the limit when safe. Long wide stretch of the road and they prefer you go 55 rather than 45. Wouldn't call it speeding as 55 on speedo is very likely just 50km/h.
Was told the same, and it is to show good progress apparently...

wonski · 24-10-2013 12:36PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Can you point to any RSA guidelines / ADI documentation which instructs learners to drive at 5 km/h over the default urban limit? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if it does I want to get a hold of it.

I doubt it is written in any book;)

pippip · 24-10-2013 12:38PM

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I think the bigger myth that has been busted here is that the speedcameras allow 5-10% error margin. If people are being caught at 1kph over the limit, this is the more interesting finding.

There's more to this bit I'd say. Out of the 8k in this group I'd say they are all between 5-9kph. I'd say its more to do with that they cannot have the stats showing they have any tolerance above the official limit.

The fact that nobody on here in the years and years this has been discussed has ever been able to produce a photo of a ticket showing prosecution speaks for itself.

Iwannahurl · 24-10-2013 12:38PM

wonski wrote: »

I doubt it is written in any book;)

Maverick instructors perhaps, giving 'off-label' advice?

djimi · 24-10-2013 12:40PM

wonski wrote: »

It is good for the test to go slightly, very slightly over the limit when safe. Long wide stretch of the road and they prefer you go 55 rather than 45. Wouldn't call it speeding as 55 on speedo is very likely just 50km/h.
Was told the same, and it is to show good progress apparently...

When I did my test I was told that speeding would be a more or less instant fail. Given that the tester doesnt have access to the "real" speed, and can only use the speedo as a guide, Id say it would be pretty moronic to be seen to be exceeding the speed limit during a driving test.

Not that it makes a blind bit of difference anyway; you are hardly impeding the progress of other road users by driving to the speed limits as per your speedo (assuming your speedo isnt completely shagged and its reading "normal" speeds). Anyone who thinks that you should be driving a few km/h over the limit according to your speedo so as to be driving at the "true" limit really needs to sit down and take a long hard look at themselves, and ask themselves is that extra couple of km/h really worth getting worked about.

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 12:41PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

How would you define "slightly"?

well its not my complaint but I think people who do complain are talking about maybe up to 4 or 5 km/h over the limit

It's a question of proportion.

well, as I said I disagree...I am not aware of any general complaint that a large proportion of speeding tickets are for only being a small bit over the limit

Six percent are up to 9 km/h over the limit, while 94% are 10 km/h or more over.

yes...but....most of the 6% might be between 1-3 or 7-9 we don't know

likewise most of the 94% could be between 10-12 for all we know

but anyway, the proportion is not the issue people raise but the location and circumstance of being done

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if it does I want to get a hold of it.

well, I'll say it...it doesn't exist

Zambia · 24-10-2013 12:42PM

wonski wrote: »

It is an indicated speed, and it usually is little lower anyway.
8000 isn't a margin, agreed. But it is 1-9km/h, so we don't know the numbers for 1-3 km/h...

I doubt anyone has ever been done for actually 1-2 kph over. Maybe for an estimated speed of that as the vehicle was detected at a higher speed and a margin of error was accounted for.

Has anyone got a ticket for doing actually 61 in a 60?

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 12:42PM

pippip wrote: »

There's more to this bit I'd say. Out of the 8k in this group I'd say they are all between 5-9kph. I'd say its more to do with that they cannot have the stats showing they have any tolerance above the official limit.

The fact that nobody on here in the years and years this has been discussed has ever been able to produce a photo of a ticket showing prosecution speaks for itself.

it is also worth noting that the second badn is twice as wide as the first

why not 1-9, 10-19 and 20-29..etc....

you can easily spin such stats

pippip · 24-10-2013 12:46PM

Riskymove wrote: »

it is also worth noting that the second badn is twice as wide as the first

why not 1-9, 10-19 and 20-29..etc....

you can easily spin such stats

Exactly, if they wanted to they could just have easily shown the public offences for every single kph over the limit. Its all computer data at the end of the day.

Its just what they want us to see.

Gary ITR · 24-10-2013 12:46PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Maverick instructors perhaps, giving 'off-label' advice?

Sticking exactly to the speed limit in a test will lead to marks for failing to progress (when I did my test 9 years ago anyway)

The biggest misconception here us that speedos are wildly inaccurate. They really aren't far off the money when at a constant speed and nowhere near 10% off anyway.

djimi · 24-10-2013 12:47PM

Riskymove wrote: »

yes...but....most of the 6% might be between 1-3 or 7-9 we don't know

I would lay money that the majority, if not all, of those 8000 were in excess of 6km/h over the limit.

wonski · 24-10-2013 12:48PM

djimi wrote: »

When I did my test I was told that speeding would be a more or less instant fail. Given that the tester doesnt have access to the "real" speed, and can only use the speedo as a guide, Id say it would be pretty moronic to be seen to be exceeding the speed limit during a driving test.

Not that it makes a blind bit of difference anyway; you are hardly impeding the progress of other road users by driving to the speed limits as per your speedo (assuming your speedo isnt completely shagged and its reading "normal" speeds). Anyone who thinks that you should be driving a few km/h over the limit according to your speedo so as to be driving at the "true" limit really needs to sit down and take a long hard look at themselves, and ask themselves is that extra couple of km/h really worth getting worked about.

I was just following instructor's advice. Granted that each of them have different idea of what to change / improve...
I passed anyway, and didn't watch the needle on the speedo. Maybe they are just trying to teach people not to watch the speedo all the time when driving, and rather drive. Some drivers are getting too nervous about the speed on the test day and thid may be good advice to some.
I agree it is weird to ask people to get a little over the limit, but it wasn't my idea. And I definitely don't give such an advice here.

djimi · 24-10-2013 12:48PM

Gary ITR wrote: »

Sticking exactly to the speed limit in a test will lead to marks for failing to progress (when I did my test 9 years ago anyway)

The biggest misconception here us that speedos are wildly inaccurate. They really aren't far off the money when at a constant speed and nowhere near 10% off anyway.

Seriously, what instructor was feeding you that nonsense? Sticking to the speed limit will fail you your driving test? Come off it...

Busting the "3 km/h over the speed limit" myth

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