What can the world learn from Ireland?

clairefontaine · 23-10-2013 03:16AM

Storytelling.

Is it genetic or something? Where does it come from?

cerastes · 23-10-2013 03:17AM

NiallSparky wrote: »

What countries have you visited that are far better to live in?

I think the Uk for a start, Finland, Denmark.
I know Ireland is good, but that doesnt mean it hasn't been royally messed up by a small cabal,
Sure, Ireland is probably on average better to live in than India, Boliva and a host of other places.

I dont know where they got their data for their statistics, but its not a complete sample, Im sure they can read into the results whatever they want.

Besides, what you're asking isn't relevant to the OP, they asked what can others learn from us

Wotsername · 23-10-2013 03:17AM

General General wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly. London did not & would not give a flying f`ck about us.

No, Of course they wouldn't. That's Germany's job now.:D

donegal__road · 23-10-2013 03:17AM

our music is one of the strongest parts of our heritage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx8lRx7BTTA

Son Of A Vidic · 23-10-2013 06:31AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What can the world learn from Ireland?

Meekness, bleating, subservience, how to take it up the ass from the Germans, how to turn a blind eye to white collar crime, how to shaft your own people for the crimes of others, the list is endless really.

Legs.Eleven · 23-10-2013 06:34AM

The "Not taking ourselves so seriously" thing. Common outside of Ireland, you'd think but nope. It could be argued that we don't take ourselves seriously enough when it comes to some things but generally speaking, day to day, I'd say we do a very good job of not sweating the small stuff.

Hobbes · 23-10-2013 06:49AM

Learn how to complain about everything but not do anything about it.

Cypher_sounds · 23-10-2013 06:57AM

The rest of the world can learn how to play gaa from us, that's about it as far as it goes productive wise.

NuckingFacker · 23-10-2013 08:10AM

FISMA wrote: »

Just imagine what Ireland would be like if it did not have generational brain drain...

Jammed to the rafters with unemployed people and utterly bankrupt trying to pay them all dole? There wasn't much happening here pre-boom.. post boom, err, there's not much happening here..

NuckingFacker · 23-10-2013 08:13AM

cerastes wrote: »

I think the Uk for a start, Finland, Denmark.
I know Ireland is good, but that doesnt mean it hasn't been royally messed up by a small cabal,
Sure, Ireland is probably on average better to live in than India, Boliva and a host of other places.

I dont know where they got their data for their statistics, but its not a complete sample, Im sure they can read into the results whatever they want.

Besides, what you're asking isn't relevant to the OP, they asked what can others learn from us

I think they're called a "kebab" by those in the know.

branie · 23-10-2013 08:48AM

We introduced cheap flights to Europe

carlmango11 · 23-10-2013 08:48AM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Meekness, bleating, subservience, how to take it up the ass from the Germans, how to turn a blind eye to white collar crime, how to shaft your own people for the crimes of others, the list is endless really.

Have you lot not gotten bored of spouting that s**te yet?

Cody Pomeray · 23-10-2013 08:54AM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Meekness, bleating, subservience, how to take it up the ass from the Germans, how to turn a blind eye to white collar crime, how to shaft your own people for the crimes of others, the list is endless really.

Maybe the list is endless, but I'm sure there must be something more positive at the top of that list.

165 years ago Irish people were dying of starvation. 100 years ago we had half the income per capita of the rest of the UK, and even most of that was in what is now Northern Ireland. We were one of the poorest countries in the western world.

Suddenly it's 2013 and we are among the top 'places to be born' globally, having outpaced even the UK. It's a pretty dramatic turnaround. All I want to know is what happened.

EuropeanSon · 23-10-2013 09:00AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Maybe the list is endless, but I'm sure there must be something more positive at the top of that list.

165 years ago Irish people were dying of starvation. 100 years ago we had half the income per capita of the rest of the UK, and even most of that was in what is now Northern Ireland. We were one of the poorest countries in the western world.

Suddenly it's 2013 and we are among the top 'places to be born' globally, having outpaced even the UK. It's a pretty dramatic turnaround. All I want to know is what happened.

Everywhere ahead of us spent three decades on and off destroying each others' infrastructure and decimating their populations. In addition, we had very beneficial trade agreements with Britain, and then with the EU. Mass unemployment was less of an issue than it should've been due to emigration, and we borrowed (and spent) more than we should've, thus raising our living standard.

Local-womanizer · 23-10-2013 09:21AM

In fairness, if you have a job Ireland is a good place to live.

I have to laugh at the people here giving out about people giving out and not doing anything about it, like posting on Boards.ie is doing something about it...

doolox · 23-10-2013 09:56AM

The rankings at world level put Ireland among the highest in Human development index terms. It seems to me that if you have a job and a reasonably good education then you can have a good standard of living here. People I have spoken to from other countries point out that there is more concern about security, racial and ethnic tension and inequality elsewhere than in Ireland. Also our welfare support systems are a lot higher than elsewhere. No need for private schools here to avoid the underclass that prevails in other countries.

Our medical service is not free but my sister lived in England for 10 yrs and it took a whole days waiting to see a doctor versus an hour or two here although you pay here. For self-employed people being idle for a whole day to see a doctor is expensive and time consuming. I do not know can you "skip the queue" by paying privately to see a doctor in England but would imagine it would be very expensive and worth it only for the very highly paid.

Access to countryside activities I have been told is very cheap here by international standards, such as field games and horse riding and walking etc.
Access to pools and indoor facilities however can be dearer than the average internationally but this is improving, not the cost of gyms in the last 5 yrs since the tiger expired........

Food i would say is top notch especially meat and dairy which are much dearer elsewhere and of variable quality. Processed stuff can be much dearer however.

I'd say we would have to compare our standards with those prevailing in Wales, Scotland and the North of England to make a judgement so that it could be argued that we were better off being independent for the last 90 yrs but it was a mixed bag for some people.

Big losers:- single mothers, people of minority religions and ethnic groups, independent thinkers and left leaning people, artists and writers who did not conform to the moral standards imposed by the Church etc. Non Irish speakers trying to keep jobs in Teaching, admin and education etc.

Big winners:- Small landholders, ex members of the old IRA, political elite of the new republic and their cronies who replaced the English with a new elite etc. Anyone fluent in Irish.

Without emigration to the US, the UK etc this country would have been wrecked but it was the same over a lot of the world, Australia and Canada during the 1930's were no bed of roses either. Our isolation kept us back during peacetime but was a boon during WW2 etc. No draftee 17 yr olds being blown up here thank God...

Wibbs · 23-10-2013 09:58AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Suddenly it's 2013 and we are among the top 'places to be born' globally, having outpaced even the UK. It's a pretty dramatic turnaround. All I want to know is what happened.

Well two things would spring to mind for me. What left us poor in 1900 ironically helped us in the long term. Namely we didn't get the industrial revolution that the rest of the UK had. Except for(as you point out) the small areas of the North of the country, we were an agrarian society largely unchanged in local industry for centuries. The UK had such large industries, but when they went bang the rest of the country really felt it. Ireland on the other hand had no such industries, so no such steep losses. It also left us in a good position to take advantage of newly emerging industries like IT/remote banking. We were/are a blank slate by comparison

Secondly and again ironically, emigration. Because of the industrial revolution people moved from country to towns. We had no such towns locally so had to go overseas. This kept our population low and increased our presence in the wider world. In the UK by comparison, people had towns and cities to move to and when industry died down they had nowhere to go. The cities got bigger and bigger as did the population(The UK has well over ten times the population of Ireland). Plus although emigration rightfully gets the headlines, it can be a two way street. IE people can and do come back and bring a wider world skillset with them. This happened in the "boom" and in the years before it. It happened further back too. EG of me and my peers growing up many of them had parents(inc my dad, and assorted rellies) that had lived overseas for a time before they returned to Ireland.

My take anyway.

Savoir.Faire · 23-10-2013 10:00AM

Bootcut jeans on men are never flattering.

fishy fishy · 23-10-2013 10:06AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

In 1900 Ireland was one of the poorest countries in the western world.
In 1900 Britain was the richest country in the western world.

In 2013, The Economist's Where To Be Born Index has Ireland as Number 13.
In 2013, The Economist's Where To Be Born Index has Britain as Number 27.

And although we have high unemployment in Ireland, we are among the very highest level of work, housing and community, standards in the OECD.

We are also above average for life satisfaction for the OECD, and rank considerably higher than Britain for work - life balance.

Although there are still a small number of countries which are more desirable places to live, Ireland is of special interest.

Because while Norway, Sweden and Denmark may recall a long established tradition of social responsibility, Ireland is a new state which has completely diverged from the path that the rest of the (former) United Kingdom took.

What can the world understand from Irish independence? It seems to me that, despite all our self-criticism, there is an important lesson to be learned from modern Ireland.

don't believe the figures. surely you have learned that by now.

Cody Pomeray · 23-10-2013 10:24AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well two things would spring to mind for me. What left us poor in 1900 ironically helped us in the long term. Namely we didn't get the industrial revolution that the rest of the UK had. Except for(as you point out) the small areas of the North of the country, we were an agrarian society largely unchanged in local industry for centuries. The UK had such large industries, but when they went bang the rest of the country really felt it. Ireland on the other hand had no such industries, so no such steep losses. It also left us in a good position to take advantage of newly emerging industries like IT/remote banking. We were/are a blank slate by comparison

Secondly and again ironically, emigration. Because of the industrial revolution people moved from country to towns. We had no such towns locally so had to go overseas. This kept our population low and increased our presence in the wider world. In the UK by comparison, people had towns and cities to move to and when industry died down they had nowhere to go. The cities got bigger and bigger as did the population(The UK has well over ten times the population of Ireland). Plus although emigration rightfully gets the headlines, it can be a two way street. IE people can and do come back and bring a wider world skillset with them. This happened in the "boom" and in the years before it. It happened further back too. EG of me and my peers growing up many of them had parents(inc my dad, and assorted rellies) that had lived overseas for a time before they returned to Ireland.

My take anyway.

I am in agreement with the above but I don't think it goes far enough. What you describe is a sequence of events which are true facts, but I am interested in why these are the true facts. Why did Ireland not develop in the 19th century, like the rest of Europe? All those big clever british men who came over here and owned property and controlled the means of production. They wanted to make money. They knew what was happening in the UK, or else had taken part in industrial revolution themselves. But they didn't or couldn't bring it here. Why did we have famine, and not an industrial revolution?

Why did our stagnation not last longer? By the 1960s something had changed in the people. Why were we suddenly agitated into progress? All those centuries of resignation and poverty, and then we changed.

fishy fishy wrote: »

don't believe the figures. surely you have learned that by now.

I do believe the figures, but it's not just the figures. I know myself from anecdotal experience that there is a lived reality in those figures. We are a very communal people, very cohesive, and most of us have a great quality of life. Things work. Stuff is clean. People thank the bus driver. The country is peaceful and stable, and there are strong social supports. What happened?

Wibbs · 23-10-2013 10:49AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I am in agreement with the above but I don't think it goes far enough. What you describe is a sequence of events which are true facts, but I am interested in why these are the true facts. Why did Ireland not develop in the 19th century, like the rest of Europe? All those big clever british men who came over here and owned property and controlled the means of production. They wanted to make money. They knew what was happening in the UK, or else had taken part in industrial revolution themselves. But they didn't or couldn't bring it here. Why did we have famine, and not an industrial revolution?

I'd say a few things, politics and geography for a start. We were that bit too far from London in thought and distance. Look at the Scottish highlands for a similar example. Wales would likely have suffered a similar neglect save for the huge reserves of coal found there. Politics too. There would be little enthusiasm to build up the fortunes of a population historically antagonistic to Albion. Again see the Scottish highlands and the highland clearances for another example of that.

Cody Pomeray · 23-10-2013 02:27PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd say a few things, politics and geography for a start. We were that bit too far from London in thought and distance. Look at the Scottish highlands for a similar example.

That certainly explains the lack of development into the outlying, western regions.

Yet neither Ireland as a whole, nor the second city of the Empire, can be reasonably associated with the Scottish Highlands. British laws and institutions governed Ireland so completely, and to such an extent that their artifacts (e.g. a shared legal system) remain in use to this day. Far from being remote and ungovernable, Ireland was tightly regulated with a comprehensive suite of the British apparatus of state, and fertile for development. Yet, nobody could or would develop it. It's really incredible.

Nobody would have believed, in 1922 or probably even in 1950, that Ireland could come back and overtake British living standards, let alone climb to the front of the pack in terms of world standards. Surely, if it can be explained why this happened, there can be a lesson here for other countries that are performing well below their potential.

You did mention returning emigrants, but I still think that's insufficient. Firstly, the emigrants needed a reason to return. The Irish revolution began in the 1960s, but I don't know why. What was it about that time that caused us to finally awaken as a people and stop accepting poverty and doom as inevitable features of Irish sovereignty?

Wibbs · 23-10-2013 06:35PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Yet neither Ireland as a whole, nor the second city of the Empire, can be reasonably associated with the Scottish Highlands. British laws and institutions governed Ireland so completely, and to such an extent that their artifacts (e.g. a shared legal system) remain in use to this day. Far from being remote and ungovernable, Ireland was tightly regulated with a comprehensive suite of the British apparatus of state, and fertile for development. Yet, nobody could or would develop it. It's really incredible.

Not quite. There was quite the cultural and economic difference between "the second city of the Empire" Dublin and ports like Cork and the rest of the country for a start. To this day the name Jackeens for Dubliners remains. Union Jack=Jackeens. Dublin was pretty much like any other city(more like town) of it's size in the UK, but Connemara say may has well have been the moon in many ways. Even in my lifetime, back in the 70's I can remember people in some rural areas without phones and the electrification plan wasn't that long gone.

I'd also argue the the second city of the Empire notion. There were many cities in the list before Dublin in population and industry. Dubin was tiny compared to say Glasgow or Manchester, with little or no "heavy" industry. It's only a couple of generations ago that the majority of Dublin(if you're familiar with the place today) was contained within the arc of the canals and places like Rathmines and Finglas were more like satellite towns and Tallaght and Blanchardstown and even Howth were country villages. There were dairy farms on the south circular road in my mums childhood. The second city of the Empire title was clearly some sort of honourary one.

You did mention returning emigrants, but I still think that's insufficient. Firstly, the emigrants needed a reason to return. The Irish revolution began in the 1960s, but I don't know why.

One of the biggest reasons was an economic upswing in the west overall. Hence people had jobs to come back to.

Another aspect we had in our favour was we could feed ourselves. The UK could not and relied on food imports(inc from here) from way back. In WW2 they were rationed heavily and that continued to the 1950's, whereas by comparison we had plenty.

Plus on the other side of the "we did better(we did)" coin was the British steadily did worse after WW2 bankrupted them They lost the biggest empire the world had ever known in a remarkably short time.

kupus · 23-10-2013 07:15PM

What kick started was the huge amount of people abroad sending money back to Ireland. Suddenly families without a pot to piss in had a small bit of income.
Works same way as FDI

Dollars/sterling and being changed in irish punts made a great contribution to exchequer.

More money being transacted meant a boost to exchequer.

Unfortunately since punt is gone it cant be devolved so tax has to go up and will continue to go up.

K-9 · 23-10-2013 08:27PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

You did mention returning emigrants, but I still think that's insufficient. Firstly, the emigrants needed a reason to return. The Irish revolution began in the 1960s, but I don't know why. What was it about that time that caused us to finally awaken as a people and stop accepting poverty and doom as inevitable features of Irish sovereignty?

A new generation of politicians not directly affected by the Civil War played a big part and the realisation that Devs isolationism and protectionism wasn't enough. I suppose people saw other countries booming and wondered why can't we? Better education played a big part in that as well. Applying to the EEC for membership was an example of something that never would have happened under DeV.

maninasia · 24-10-2013 08:14AM

Although there are still a small number of countries which are more desirable places to live, Ireland is of special interest.

There's some self congratulatory horse **** in this statement, apart from the fact that many Irish don't have the opportunity to live in Ireland and must leave (as per usual), and the unemployment rate is something like 15% even with the use of Communist type Jobbridge internship schemes and massive emigration, there are many countries in the world, especially in Asia, that are not thrown into the usual Scandinavia and Canada are the best mix but are decent places to live too.

Ireland also has more repressive laws against women and is still overly influenced by the Catholic church.

Depends what you like as an individual doesn't it, not everybody wants or needs to live in Europe.

maninasia · 24-10-2013 08:21AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Are you saying Ireland is a relatively worst place to live in 2013 than it was (again, relative to other jurisdictions) in 1913?

The facts suggest this opinion is badly wrong.

Guess what. Irish independence was good for us.

So ...the ...effing ...what.

Almost every country is better off in 2013 than 1913.....and 100s of countries have become independent since 1913. Many of those countries came from a base that was FAR lower than Ireland.

Stop making up SPECIAL where it doesn't exist. Ireland is just a very small broke state taking it's orders from Germany with high unemployment and high emigration, rapidly growing public debt, rapidly increasing costs, rapidly increasing taxes, poorly functioning health system and education system but it looks after the insiders.

We've hemorrhaged millions of citizens over the last century...and they are conveniently EXPUNGED from the statistics. As if they never existed.

Yeah Ireland not too bad compared to many countries if you can get a stable job or have some income but it's really middling to average at most. Most of them had to leave to make a decent life. If Ireland was so great, why did they have to leave.

I'll repeat it again, if Ireland is and was so great, why did so many leave? Why can't it maintain a higher population density like other countries in Europe? Mismanagement...that's why.

There are no facts to support for or against whether independence was good for Ireland or not. You've got nothing to compare it too, it's all hypothetical.