Crazy allowances or perks

draiochtanois · 23-10-2013 08:57AM

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Godge · 23-10-2013 09:10AM

Great, it has been a while since we have had a thread designed to bash public servants using lies and half-truths.

draiochtanois wrote: »

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No. in fact this has been gone a long time. It was abolished for new entrants 10-15 years ago at least. It only applied to some civil servants and not to public servants. I think it was actually abolished under T2016 before Croke Park so why is it being brought up now?

The Mustard wrote: »

Unvouched expenses for Independent TDs, on top of existing salary.

€40,000 per year, I think. It is going to be cut to €37,500 if I heard correctly.

It's still untaxed and unvouched - no receipts required. They could put it into their back pockets.

I am not suggesting that we get rid of expenses for TDs for a minute. What I am saying is that allowing unvouched expenses is mad.

Absolutely, I agree, unvouched expenses are mad.

draiochtanois wrote: »

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You maths is way off and only provides an excuse for the rant in your last sentence. Some perspective. All public servants work a minimum 35 hours net i.e. excluding lunch. All new public servants work a minimum 37 hours net.

Many private sector hours are gross including lunch.

Once you go above the lower levels, you will find that public servants are putting in much more than 40 hours.

kceire wrote: »

My brother works for a large MNC. He travels around for work. They pay him over night stays etc if he is working outside of Dublin. When he has work in Meath, Wicklow or any other surrounding county he gets 127e and that's meant to pay for a room for the night and an evening meal. He just pockets it and drives down a bit earlier in the morning.

My mate works for a drinks company. They get an internal wallet that allows them free drink every month. He comes home with trays or orange, monster, mi-wadi every week!

Don't hear too much about perks anymore as people are afraid to openly talk about them with the way spitefullness has gone in our country since the recession hit.

In the public sector, expenses are monitored and vouched and you would not get away with driving down a bit earlier in the morning and pocketing the 127 euro.

Idbatterim wrote: »

This comparison with the private sector is ridiculous, if a private sector company withdraw all their cash and burn it to the ground I couldnt give a toss, if there is waste in the PS its a totally different kettle of fish... Because it could be used to reduce the deficit, invest in jobs, bla bla bla...

Actually, the private sector is relevant. In the cases mentioned by kceire, there are issues.

If his brother drives down early in the morning and pockets the overnight expense, it is not an expense, it is income and should therefore be taxed. The practice of the private company in allowing this is tax evasion and has an effect on the deficit.

Similarly, bringing home bottles of orange is BIK and should be taxed.

So, yes, gaming the system in the private sector to avoid paying income tax is something we should be concerned about.

Scortho wrote: »

Bigger question?
Who still gets paid by cheque? :eek:

The public sector hasn't paid by cheque for years, am aware of a number of small businesses that still pay by cheque.

Gloomtastic! · 23-10-2013 09:12AM

In my kids' primary school, the assistant principal has only worked two in the last six years. Off on maternity leave, on full pay (teachers are treated differently to everyone else I believe), with all her allowances still being paid.

Godge · 23-10-2013 09:12AM

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Over the years there have been multiple ways of entering teaching, some requiring degrees, some not, some requiring the HDip e.g. for example in a VEC a HDip wasn't required to teach in a VEC secondary school until about 5 years ago.

All of this is now subject to regulation by the Teaching Council. A visit to their website would enlighten you on what is necessary.

chopper6 · 23-10-2013 09:15AM

kupus wrote: »

It is when you have 100,000 plus people taking that time off

= let me get the maths straight on this....100,000 thousand hours of work a month
x
12 months

= a shedload of money....

However its not the money thats my concern

Its what the hell are they doing with this time thats the problem and how in all fairness is the civil service such an inefficient mess.

thats my problem.

Your "concern" is unfounded.

As has been repeatedly poinetd out in this thread that "perk" has been long discontinued.

And the civil service is a mess is it?

How do you figure that out exactly?

Godge · 23-10-2013 09:23AM

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

In my kids' primary school, the assistant principal has only worked two in the last six years. Off on maternity leave, on full pay (teachers are treated differently to everyone else I believe), with all her allowances still being paid.

Instead of making allegations about benefits accruing to teachers, maybe you could provide a link to back this up.

AFAIK, any perks from linking the holidays to dates of birth were removed earlier this year.

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0009_2013.pdf

sarumite · 23-10-2013 09:40AM

Godge wrote: »

In the public sector, expenses are monitored and vouched and you would not get away with driving down a bit earlier in the morning and pocketing the 127 euro.

This is not entirely true. For example UCD has the following in terms of expenses

" Staff may claim the actual costs incurred (provided the claim is supported by invoices/receipts) or a per diem rate based on the country/city visited."

srsly78 · 23-10-2013 10:11AM

Everyone can use the approved per-diem rates pretty much, also self-employed people: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it54.html (see appendix I).

There is also a list of approved overseas per-diem rates. It's e180 for an overnight in London.

everdead.ie · 23-10-2013 10:23AM

Godge wrote: »

Many private sector hours are gross including lunch.

I have never seen the above in any sector public nor private working hours are "working".

Godge wrote: »

Once you go above the lower levels, you will find that public servants are putting in much more than 40 hours.

The amount of hours worked depends completely on the person I know public servants who work 45-50 hrs a week at the bottom rung while some of their peers and seniors work the minimum hours no matter what. It completely depends on the person.

Godge · 23-10-2013 11:15AM

everdead.ie wrote: »

I have never seen the above in any sector public nor private working hours are "working".

I have sat in private sector canteens at lunchtime listening to people on a paid lunchbreak who are working 9-5 Monday to Friday claiming that they are working 40 hours while public servants are only working 33, 34, 35 hours.

draiochtanois · 23-10-2013 11:20AM

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sarumite · 23-10-2013 11:27AM

Godge wrote: »

I have sat in private sector canteens at lunchtime listening to people on a paid lunchbreak who are working 9-5 Monday to Friday claiming that they are working 40 hours while public servants are only working 33, 34, 35 hours.

I can honestly say I am more than a little surprised. I have never ever heard of such an instance, either from my time working in public orprivate sector. During my brief stint of unemployment I was going to a lot of interviews for different companies, all of whom had working hours exclusive of lunch.

Jawgap · 23-10-2013 11:29AM

sarumite wrote: »

This actually quite common in both the PS and private sector. Its hardly a perk though considering the employer is asking you to go out of your way to travel. Although its highly unusual to be given a room the day before an event if you are within commutable distance. It makes perfect sense if a person has to fly somewhere that they do it the day before if the event is starting early in the morning. Personally I have received a daily allowance working in both sectors and see it as much as a nuisance allowance as anything else. When I think about the fact that I am stuck in a hotel in a city where I don't know anyone and I have probably travelled on behalf of my employer on my own free time, the very least they could do is provide a hotel room and hot meal.

It's not common in the PS and to claim an overnight without actually staying overnight. This is a fairly serious contravention of the disciplinary code - likewise staying overnight with a relative but claiming to have stayed in a hotel, or sleeping in the car / van (it's happened) is similarly a no-no. You can be asked to produce evidence that you stayed and paid somewhere.

everdead.ie wrote: »

I have never seen the above in any sector public nor private working hours are "working".

The amount of hours worked depends completely on the person I know public servants who work 45-50 hrs a week at the bottom rung while some of their peers and seniors work the minimum hours no matter what. It completely depends on the person.

I'm fairly senior in the PS and up until the HRA my average working week was 43+ hours, that was net of lunches and travelling before 7am and after 7pm, work carried out at home and work undertaken at weekends. We're also automatically deducted 30 mins for lunch whether we take a break or not - obviously you have to key out for longer lunch breaks.

Since HRA I've made a point of not working one minute beyond the 37 hours they seemed to be so fixated on - as they say, be careful what you wish for, you may just get it. I've also (as of this month) moved on to working 4 days per week to allow me to pursue other opportunities.

everdead.ie · 23-10-2013 11:32AM

Godge wrote: »

I have sat in private sector canteens at lunchtime listening to people on a paid lunchbreak who are working 9-5 Monday to Friday claiming that they are working 40 hours while public servants are only working 33, 34, 35 hours.

That is exceedingly abnormal I have never seen it before fair enough if the company can afford it but it is very very unusual and something I'm sure the 99% of business don't practice.

Scofflaw · 23-10-2013 11:33AM

As has been requested, let's have rather fewer of the hoary old chestnuts being repeated without backing. If you can't substantiate your claimed "crazy allowance or perk", don't post it. The Public Sector Review is a good source, as is the PDF version. If it isn't in one of those, you'll need to provide an official and recent source to show the claimed perk is still in existence - posting claims of perks without such substantiation will be penalised.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Gumbo · 23-10-2013 11:42AM

Jawgap wrote: »

It's not common in the PS and to claim an overnight without actually staying overnight. This is a fairly serious contravention of the disciplinary code - likewise staying overnight with a relative but claiming to have stayed in a hotel, or sleeping in the car / van (it's happened) is similarly a no-no. You can be asked to produce evidence that you stayed and paid somewhere.

+1

In my PS Dept. the hotel is booked centrally and paid for, so if we dont use it, we dont benefit from it.

Maura74 · 23-10-2013 11:57AM

In UK the public sector wages and expenses are on councils website together with any spend over £500 pounds, (I feel that every penny should be accounted for and should be published. Hopefully councils will comply soon due to it been public money therefore every penny should be account for. The only problem they have not got around to itemising all their spending as it is all lumped in the same pot). They have got around to making wards in the borough why not published what is spent in each ward.

Also now some UK councils they have a website for suggestions from their employees ie public that pays their salaries.

Not sure if it is like this in Ireland.

chopper6 · 23-10-2013 12:03PM

everdead.ie wrote: »

That is exceedingly abnormal I have never seen it before fair enough if the company can afford it but it is very very unusual and something I'm sure the 99% of business don't practice.

You're not sure and you have pulled this figure out of thin air.

How many businesses "close for lunch"?

creedp · 23-10-2013 12:12PM

everdead.ie wrote: »

That is exceedingly abnormal I have never seen it before fair enough if the company can afford it but it is very very unusual and something I'm sure the 99% of business don't practice.

So a 9 - 5 job in the private sector is a 35 hour week and not a 40 hour week as oft claimed

chopper6 · 23-10-2013 12:42PM

creedp wrote: »

So a 9 - 5 job in the private sector is a 35 hour week and not a 40 hour week as oft claimed

AND despite claims to the contrary is also subject to the same illness,maternity and holiday benefits as the public sector.

sarumite · 23-10-2013 12:49PM

Jawgap wrote: »

It's not common in the PS and to claim an overnight without actually staying overnight. This is a fairly serious contravention of the disciplinary code - likewise staying overnight with a relative but claiming to have stayed in a hotel, or sleeping in the car / van (it's happened) is similarly a no-no. You can be asked to produce evidence that you stayed and paid somewhere.

If you claim for a specific expense that never actually existed, its fraud. If you claim a per diem, then you are not claiming for any specific expense item itself. A per diem is effectively unvouched for expenses, at best you must show you were on the city/country for business purposes on the dates you claimed a per diem for. Personally I have only ever claimed been able to claim per diem while working in the PS myself, although as I stated earlier I don't see it as a perk as generally you do the travel on your own time and being away from your family for work isn't always fun.

Jawgap · 23-10-2013 01:06PM

sarumite wrote: »

If you claim for a specific expense that never actually existed, its fraud. If you claim a per diem, then you are not claiming for any specific expense item itself. A per diem is effectively unvouched for expenses, at best you must show you were on the city/country for business purposes on the dates you claimed a per diem for. Personally I have only ever claimed been able to claim per diem while working in the PS myself, although as I stated earlier I don't see it as a perk as generally you do the travel on your own time and being away from your family for work isn't always fun.

Indeed and it often doesn't even cover the cost of being away, organising accommodation and feeding yourself unless you stay in a pretty crappy B&B and eat in Supermac's.

Our auditors have said an expense must be incurred for the per diem to be claimed - in other words for an overnight you must have paid for some accommodation and - if requested - produce evidence that you paid. If you stayed in a flophouse that's fine, equally if you went for a five star resort hotel that's fine - you're still only going to get the one rate.

We're occasionally asked to produce evidence we paid for our accommodation - but I've yet to be asked to prove I fed myself.

everdead.ie · 23-10-2013 01:28PM

chopper6 wrote: »

You're not sure and you have pulled this figure out of thin air.

How many businesses "close for lunch"?

From my personal experience, my father as a business owner and having worked in 5 different private companies I have never been paid for lunch it is to me bizarre to pay someone to not work for an hour.

creedp wrote: »

So a 9 - 5 job in the private sector is a 35 hour week and not a 40 hour week as oft claimed

9-5 with an hours lunch is a 35 hour working week I have never said anything to the contrary. I have also never worked a 9-5 working week myself however as I know plenty of public servants haven't either. Christ Junior Doctors put us all to shame.

chopper6 wrote: »

AND despite claims to the contrary is also subject to the same illness,maternity and holiday benefits as the public sector.

This was not always the case and it is generally quite standardised now but it can still be dependant on your employer the likes of Google and Facebook for instance would provide much better benefits than the public sector and the likes of a newsagents or butchers would probably provide much worse

Gumbo · 23-10-2013 01:48PM

Maura74 wrote: »

In UK the public sector wages and expenses are on councils website together with any spend over £500 pounds, (I feel that every penny should be accounted for and should be published. Hopefully councils will comply soon due to it been public money therefore every penny should be account for. The only problem they have not got around to itemising all their spending as it is all lumped in the same pot). They have got around to making wards in the borough why not published what is spent in each ward.

Councils have staff idea schemes here too.
Dublin City Council publish their budget report each year.

Maura74 wrote: »

public that pays their salaries.

Seriousy, not this crap again :rolleyes:

Maura74 wrote: »

Not sure if it is like this in Ireland.

Have you checked?

creedp · 23-10-2013 02:09PM

everdead.ie wrote: »

9-5 with an hours lunch is a 35 hour working week I have never said anything to the contrary. I have also never worked a 9-5 working week myself however as I know plenty of public servants haven't either. Christ Junior Doctors put us all to shame.

No problem with calling a 9 - 5 job a 35 hour working week but lets be consistent for all sectors (not directed at you by the way simply a general comment). There has been a lot of teeth knashing around the PS 35 hr working week without acknowledement that is is a pretty common working week in the private sector also. As you say though, many private sector and PS jobs work in excess of a 35 hour working week.

chopper6 · 23-10-2013 02:23PM

everdead.ie wrote: »

From my personal experience, my father as a business owner and having worked in 5 different private companies I have never been paid for lunch it is to me bizarre to pay someone to not work for an hour.

I've also worked in several private sector companies and you MUST be paid,by law for a 30 minute lunch break.

draiochtanois · 23-10-2013 02:26PM

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Gumbo · 23-10-2013 02:29PM

chopper6 wrote: »

I've also worked in several private sector companies and you MUST be paid,by law for a 30 minute lunch break.

Depends if you are on a salary or hourly rate.
For example, my mam would not get paid for her lunch break in Dunnes, but my brother in his office would consider his lunch paid for because he is on a salary.

donegal11 · 23-10-2013 02:59PM

kceire wrote: »

Depends if you are on a salary or hourly rate.
For example, my mam would not get paid for her lunch break in Dunnes, but my brother in his office would consider his lunch paid for because he is on a salary.

But by that logic everyone on a salary gets paid for lunch?

Godge · 23-10-2013 02:59PM

creedp wrote: »

No problem with calling a 9 - 5 job a 35 hour working week but lets be consistent for all sectors (not directed at you by the way simply a general comment). There has been a lot of teeth knashing around the PS 35 hr working week without acknowledement that is is a pretty common working week in the private sector also. As you say though, many private sector and PS jobs work in excess of a 35 hour working week.

This is the point. There have been many people on these threads for many a year claiming that if they work a 40-hour week Monday to Friday 9-5. why can't the public service work one too.

The reality is that there has been little difference in the hours actually worked because those claims of 40 hours include lunch breaks (do the maths yourself) while the 35 hours worked do not.

Agreed, many work more than 35 hours or 40.

Crazy allowances or perks

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